Need help syncing up audio with video

[TheNeverhood]

I'm having a hard time syncing up some audio.

I want to sync up the Faulconer audio tracks from the 16:9 Dragon Ball Z boxsets (Orange Bricks) with the 4:3 Dragon Ball Z boxsets (Dragon Box).

I have been opening up each episode, twice (one with the original track and the other one with the Faulconer track), in AVPlayer (https://www.videohelp.com/software/AVPlayer), and then adjusting the delay of the Faulconer track until I can't hear any echo.

I can get them to sync up perfectly at the start, but then they become progressively out of sync, even though the video FPS is constant.

I'm not how to get around this

I have done a quick encode, with the Faulconer track muxed (700 ms delay).

[manono]

What's the source of the AC3 track? I mean, a PAL or NTSC set? The audio alone isn't really enough to tell what's going on. The video is necessary as well. Do both versions have the same number of frames (taking the 700ms delay into account)?

You could just stretch the audio to fit. If the audio for all episodes is off by the same amount, it wouldn't be hard or too time consuming, although it would require reencoding the audio.

[TheNeverhood]

Both boxsets are NTSC.

The 700 ms delay is just the amount of delay I needed so that I can't hear any echo at the start.

I have done another quick encode of the other video, the one with the audio track I want to sync up with the 4:3 video.

EDIT: Ignore the delay figure. Originally, I muxed the Faulconer track when the sources were full-episodes, and this is when I had problems with the delays. But the problem seems to go away if I cut the intro and credits from the sources (the files I uploaded are the ones with the intro and credits cut), and then mux the tracks

Sorry about this.

[manono]

Can you explain why you want to do this? The 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv is obviously the better of the two visually and has the audio you want to keep.

Anyway, while they aren't exactly the same cuts, they're pretty close. The 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv has a few extra frames at the end, because of the way you cut it, but other that that they're pretty similar with the 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv going from matching exactly, to one extra frame at a scene change, 2 extra, 1 extra, 0, 1 extra. So, at most, during the short period when 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv has two extra frames, you have an 83ms asynch, not enough to worry about with anime, and on average, about a 41ms asynch.

You could always synch up the videos by adding and/or removing frames at the places they diverge but, again, unless you have a really good reason for putting in all this work, I'd say you're wasting your time. I also think your method of determining that they're out of synch is flawed. And it's anime, so the audio can't really synch up properly anyway. Sorry, not much help, but I think your 'echo' method is counterproductive unless the video content is identical. You're noticing differences of much less that 40ms, I would think. I also think you could just replace the audio, account for any delay, and then be done with it.

I think a more important problem is that the aspect ratios for the two are very different with 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv having much more video left to right and 07 -Day 1.mkv more top to bottom. And, if the windows in the first scene are supposed to be round, then 07 -Day 1.mkv has way less aspect error. The round window isn't round in 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv and is definitely oval shaped, after being resized for 4:3. It could easily be fixed by resizing and adding small black bars with a reencode. And 07 -Day 1.mkv has big problems with the colors and saturation.

[TheNeverhood]

Can you explain why you want to do this? The 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv is obviously the better of the two visually and has the audio you want to keep.

Anyway, while they aren't exactly the same cuts, they're pretty close. The 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv has a few extra frames at the end, because of the way you cut it, but other that that they're pretty similar with the 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv going from matching exactly, to one extra frame at a scene change, 2 extra, 1 extra, 0, 1 extra. So, at most, during the short period when 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv has two extra frames, you have an 83ms asynch, not enough to worry about with anime, and on average, about a 41ms asynch.

You could always synch up the videos by adding and/or removing frames at the places they diverge but, again, unless you have a really good reason for putting in all this work, I'd say you're wasting your time. I also think your method of determining that they're out of synch is flawed. And it's anime, so the audio can't really synch up properly anyway. Sorry, not much help, but I think your 'echo' method is counterproductive unless the video content is identical. You're noticing differences of much less that 40ms, I would think. I also think you could just replace the audio, account for any delay, and then be done with it.

I think a more important problem is that the aspect ratios for the two are very different with 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv having much more video left to right and 07 -Day 1.mkv more top to bottom. And, if the windows in the first scene are supposed to be round, then 07 -Day 1.mkv has way less aspect error. The round window isn't round in 07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv and is definitely oval shaped, after being resized for 4:3. It could easily be fixed by resizing and adding small black bars with a reencode. And 07 -Day 1.mkv has big problems with the colors and saturation.

There's a few reasons

1) Dragon Ball Z was originally 4:3 and the cropping removes part of the image.
2) The 4:3 source has more grain and it adds character IMO. The 16:9 source is too clean, sometimes you'll see missing lines here and there where they've removed too much detail
3) The colours are oversaturated in the 16:9 source.

I'm not sure how my method is flawed. I should mention that I open two of the same source (4:3 source), but one with the original track and one with the Faulconer track muxed. So, the video content is identical, just different audio tracks, and then I adjust the Faulconer delay until there's no echo. I understand the problems of syncing up audio with anime, but I only want to match the Faulconer track with the original track, so I use the original track as a reference.

I'm not sure how the different aspect ratios is a problem. The videos are not being muxed, or am I misunderstanding your post?

I'm happy to put in the time to match up the Faulconer track with the original track perfectly, but I'm not sure of the best way to do it.

Thanks for helping me

[manono]

There's a few reasons

1) Dragon Ball Z was originally 4:3 and the cropping removes part of the image.
2) The 4:3 source has more grain and it adds character IMO. The 16:9 source is too clean, sometimes you'll see missing lines here and there where they've removed too much detail
3) The colours are oversaturated in the 16:9 source.

Okay, that makes sense. Except that I think the colors are washed out in the 4:3 version, and the blacks aren't black but dark grey. The saturation could be just a matter of personal taste, but I believe the colors on the 4:3 version are just plain wrong. Everything, especially the sky, has a greenish caste. These are the things you should be concentrating on, and not the audio. The 16:9 version has color problems of its own, including blown out whites, but I don't find it oversaturated. Maybe that's just me but anime is supposed to be 'colorful'.

I believe you could put the AC3 audio in there and synch the start and forget about it. When being played neither you nor anyone else could tell the difference.

So, the video content is identical...

No, it's not. It varies from time to time from no difference to a 2 frame difference, but at the end the 4:3 version has one more frame than does the original 16:9 version. It's enough to show up in your 'echo' testing, but not enough to notice when just playing it. I fooled around trying to get the two to line up frame by frame but decided it's too much work for a project that's not mine. I might do it for my own projects.

I'm not sure how the different aspect ratios is a problem.

I forgot one was originally 16:9 and that you had cropped it and created the big aspect error yourself. Sorry.

I'm happy to put in the time to match up the Faulconer track with the original track perfectly, but I'm not sure of the best way to do it.

You do it by making a frame-by-frame match (adding and removing frames as necessary). A whole lot of work and not worth it at all, in my opinion. As I said, add the audio you want, synch it as best you can, and then forget about it and try and fix the colors, levels, contrast.

[TheNeverhood]

N/A

[TheNeverhood]

There's a few reasons

1) Dragon Ball Z was originally 4:3 and the cropping removes part of the image.
2) The 4:3 source has more grain and it adds character IMO. The 16:9 source is too clean, sometimes you'll see missing lines here and there where they've removed too much detail
3) The colours are oversaturated in the 16:9 source.

Okay, that makes sense. Except that I think the colors are washed out in the 4:3 version, and the blacks aren't black but dark grey. The saturation could be just a matter of personal taste, but I believe the colors on the 4:3 version are just plain wrong. Everything, especially the sky, has a greenish caste. These are the things you should be concentrating on, and not the audio. The 16:9 version has color problems of its own, including blown out whites, but I don't find it oversaturated. Maybe that's just me but anime is supposed to be 'colorful'.

I believe you could put the AC3 audio in there and synch the start and forget about it. When being played neither you nor anyone else could tell the difference.

So, the video content is identical...

No, it's not. It varies from time to time from no difference to a 2 frame difference, but at the end the 4:3 version has one more frame than does the original 16:9 version. It's enough to show up in your 'echo' testing, but not enough to notice when just playing it. I fooled around trying to get the two to line up frame by frame but decided it's too much work for a project that's not mine. I might do it for my own projects.

I'm not sure how the different aspect ratios is a problem.

I forgot one was originally 16:9 and that you had cropped it and created the big aspect error yourself. Sorry.

I'm happy to put in the time to match up the Faulconer track with the original track perfectly, but I'm not sure of the best way to do it.

You do it by making a frame-by-frame match (adding and removing frames as necessary). A whole lot of work and not worth it at all, in my opinion. As I said, add the audio you want, synch it as best you can, and then forget about it and try and fix the colors, levels, contrast.

When I said the video content is identical, I'm not just suggesting the 16:9 video source is identical to the 4:3 video source. This would be crazy
Maybe I should have made it clearer. I make a copy of the 4:3 source and mux the Faulconer track, and then I play the 4:3 source with the original track and the same 4:3 source but with the Faulconer track, simultaneously, and adjust the Faulconer delay until there's no echo.

I don't agree about the sync, it's very noticeable to me.

I haven't done any cropping or changed the aspect-ratios, they're the same as source. 4:3 source was always 4:3 , and 16:9 source was always 16:9.

Thanks for the help anyway (I'll see what I can do with the frames).

[manono]

I haven't done any cropping or changed the aspect-ratios, they're the same as source. 4:3 source was always 4:3 , and 16:9 source was always 16:9.

Damn, I made the same mistake twice. Yes, I kept using the 720x480 videos of both, comparing the differences, forgetting one was 16:9, the other 4:3. Sorry again.

[TheNeverhood]

I haven't done any cropping or changed the aspect-ratios, they're the same as source. 4:3 source was always 4:3 , and 16:9 source was always 16:9.

Damn, I made the same mistake twice. Yes, I kept using the 720x480 videos of both, comparing the differences, forgetting one was 16:9, the other 4:3. Sorry again.

No problem

So, exactly, how would I go about matching up the tracks perfectly? I know you said the 4:3 source and 16:9 are not identical, in that the frames don't match up perfectly here and there, but I'm not sure how to solve this. I'm still pretty new to all this.

[manono]

I already said - you put them side by side and with the 4:3 one add (Loop) and remove (DeleteFrame) frames whenever necessary so that they match up. I was using AviSynth to open them both in VDub and to add and remove frames from the 4:3 one so it matched the 16:9 one. Once they match up perfectly, then the audio will, too. But it's a helluva lot of grunt work. And you have how many episodes to do?

And if you can open the both of them, you'll see that they're different. Fixing it is the tricky part. That picture above is from the StackHorizontal filter, playing the two side by side. Frame number 968, I believe, a scene which synchs well:

A=FFVideoSource("07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv")
B=FFVideoSource("07 -Day 1.mkv")
StackHorizontal(A,B)

[TheNeverhood]

I already said - you put them side by side and with the 4:3 one add (Loop) and remove (DeleteFrame) frames whenever necessary so that they match up. I was using AviSynth to open them both in VDub and to add and remove frames from the 4:3 one so it matched the 16:9 one. Once they match up perfectly, then the audio will, too. But it's a helluva lot of grunt work. And you have how many episodes to do?

And if you can open the both of them, you'll see that they're different. Fixing it is the tricky part. That picture above is from the StackHorizontal filter, playing the two side by side. Frame number 968, I believe, a scene which synchs well:

A=FFVideoSource("07 - Day 1 (Orange Brick.mkv")
B=FFVideoSource("07 -Day 1.mkv")
StackHorizontal(A,B)

291 episodes xD

Mmmm... I think I might settle for slightly out of sync audio :P

Still, thanks for the help, I appreciated it