UHD-BD Authoring Tool

[SameSelf]

I don't know where to post this, but does anyone have a guess on when UHD BD authoring software will be available for the masses? Companies have been busy adding UHD functionality:

http://dvd-logic.com/
http://www.hughsnews.ca/jargon-releases-4k-ultra-hd-blu-ray-authoring-software-0051229

These solutions are for the studios. I am hoping for a consumer version.

[Cornucopia]

I've already written on this previously here: not going to happen for a long time, if ever. Much as I want the authoring tools to be democratized, the conglomerates want to keep the means of production to themselves. To them, rarity = value, so they are maintaining rarity via exclusivity. Uhd bd is a "deluxe", higher echelon (top tier) type of merchandise, while std bd is the "mainstream", above average (2nd tier) product and dvd is the base commodity (3rd tier), l.c.d. offering (if offered at alll). And by extension, s/vcd would be the underground/untouchable fare.

Scott

[SameSelf]

The thing is, even today, BD-J and even BDMV are out of the hands of the average consumer/indie, but BDAV is readily available for under $100. So what if the fancy popups or whatever they are building into UHD BD never find their way to the masses? I am nearly 100% confident some sort of consumer version will. All the pieces are in place.

- UHD camcorders
- UHD NLEs
- UHD encoders
- UHD BD blanks
- UHD BD writers

The only thing missing is a UHD authoring tool. Are you trying to tell me, not a single company out there is going to offer that to consumers?

[usually_quiet]

Since any answers given would be purely speculative and starting flame wars seems to be the main reason for SameSelf to be here, this thread ought to be considered bait.

[ron spencer]

I'm thinking personal home authoring is pretty much dead (or will be soon), since most media players plays all file types now anyway. I used to do tons of DVD stuff with DVDLab, but I don't think there is money to be had for bluray authoring (DVDlab's creator said so when he stopped development). Sadly I think home use authoring is a dead end; I wish it were not the case, but who does it anymore?

[october262]

even dvdfab will not bother with the new UHD discs - http://www.myce.com/news/dvdfab-we-will-not-decrypt-or-circumvent-aacs-2-0-in-the-days...to-come-78698/

[SameSelf]

Let me check my calendar...August 2016. OK. No updates yet (or, more likely, no forum members in the know) as to when we might see a consumer oriented offering in the wild.

Feel free to chime in if I am wrong on this. I am eager to know.

[ron spencer]

Let me check my calendar...August 2016. OK. No updates yet (or, more likely, no forum members in the know) as to when we might see a consumer oriented offering in the wild.

Feel free to chime in if I am wrong on this. I am eager to know.

Why don't you email the usual suspects? i.e., Sony, Adobe, Corel, TMPGEnc, Cyberlink, etc. and see if you can find something under $1,000? Those are the ones "in the know" as you say (maybe you don't really care). I'm hoping you have scuba tanks to help you hold your breath for an authoring program for the consumer. General public could care less about authoring. And the producers of the software? They know people don't care, so there is no money in it.

Are you currently authoring anything? DVD, Bluray?

Perhaps you could write your own UHD authoring package and give it away as freeware?

[Cornucopia]

I AM in the know. I have already told you so that you should be in the know. But either because you like dissing veteran media professionals, have some kind or personal grudge, can't bear something not going your way, or - the most likely - just enjoy being a troll, you continue to refuse to be told NO.

Scott

[SameSelf]

I AM in the know. I have already told you so that you should be in the know. But either because you like dissing veteran media professionals, have some kind or personal grudge, can't bear something not going your way, or - the most likely - just enjoy being a troll, you continue to refuse to be told NO.

Scott

If you are a professional, then act like one. If you think I am trolling then the solution is simple:

[Cornucopia]

One has to get really off the rails for me to use that. But, keep it up...

Scott

[Orbital360]

The replies here seem particularly negative. Negative enough that I bothered to register.

This is a perfectly legitimate question for several reasons, all of which relate to the opportunism of product development. Those points are captured succinctly above.

We have the devices to play 4K content. (Tick)
There's an extensive market for 4k display devices. (Tick)
We have the means to record our own 4K content. (Tick)
We now have the means to store and archive that content. And, if you're willing to pay a little extra -- archive it as a durable, long-term solution (read: 1000 years, if you believe the hype in the form of M-DISC). (Big tick)

But, there appears to be no means to author that content in the format you want. So I'd agree with the general frustration above.

You don't have to be a professional to want that sort of control, just an enthusiast with means. For me personally, I'd love to author 4k home movies on a durable medium for longevity. And I doubt I'm the only one. Seems like a prize opportunity for a niche market to me. I'd eat my own hat if no one capitalizes on that opportunity.

[Cornucopia]

I'm not being negative, I'm being realistic. Anybody who did an even cursory glance at my past posts on the subject would know that I am:
1. An enthusiast of home-grown material
2. An advocate for standards-based consumer media distribution
3. A zealot for continuing use of physical media alongside virtual/streaming media
4. A crusader for democratizing the means of quality media production (even at some cost to my livelihood)
5. An advanced technophile - the more advanced, the more I groove on it
So it should not surprise anyone that I would strongly WISH economical uhd-bd authoring to come to reality soon.
But that's not going to happen.

Not because not enough people want it, and not because other factors don't support it, and not because there's no one enterprising to attempt it.
Because the powers that be see consumers to be perfectly happy with either raw, un-authored 4k clips, or with authored hd & sd material, and they consider AUTHORED uhd to be an area solely pertaining to the biggest media producers. So the means of production have been held close to their hegemonic fortress.
Only the sparest of descriptive material regarding the uhdbd spec has been released to the public.
Not available to the public, but only to those willing to cough up money for access, are the official specs.
Those specs are necessary for proper, bug-limited development. They are tiered - $$ for access, $$$ for the base documents, more $$ for 3d and $$$ for uhd supplemental documents.
And along with access comes non-disclosure, aacs- and hdcp- abiding and other strict legal requirements (and breaking them entails swift & viscious legal penalties = $$$$$$$$ + possible jail, thanks to DMCA).
Only those who are invested in old school steep profitability and are deemed good risks regarding the status quo are leased the keys to the kingdom.
So you see Scenarist & Sony BluPrint providing uhdbd authoring for multiple thousands and upward as a buy-in, and with the explicit expectation of authoring only for pressed media. Best quality + availability rarity = deluxe ($$$) value (and better per unit profitability), in their eyes.
Who is going to stand up against that tide? And how, by reverse-engineering? Not any time soon at all.

Scott

[Eugene157]

Orbital360, sameself, are correct, there are plenty of reasons to have this feature!!

I am convinced that we will see UHD authoring in the near future. Somebody will do it , after all there is a lot of original 4 K material out there that wants to be on a disc. And I have hours of edited video shot with the Sony AX100. And I would like to watch and pass it around on a UHD disc.

However Cyberlink, whose PD14 I use, is a HUGE disappointment, their latest version PD15, coming out in the next few weeks, does NOT offer this feature. Bummer.
I do not own a UHD BR player yet but will get one as soon a I can burn my own.

Eugene

[Orbital360]

The only barrier I see in that statement is development cost. Which again, in terms of product development, isn't really a barrier at all. It sets the expectation for a pricing framework.

As with all firsts, the bar is initially set high. That entry point will fall as competiion encroaches. Scope or features (in comparison to commercial production house requirements) may scale to suit the needs of a less demanding audience.

Either the market demand is great, and the cost is offset by volume; or the demand is niche, and the customer expects to pay a premium. However, from a software development house' perspective, there are always other ways to offset high development costs. Branding, positioning, marketing, and so on. Being an 'Old school' developer with 'steep profitability' is actually an advantage in this scenario, unlike a start-up.

It may be that the real barrier here is technology (perhaps in the form of compute power). I.e. The price point for sufficient commute power hasn't fallen enough for the average pundit to have the necessary specs required to install and operate 4k product workflows efficiently.

(Which, in turn, might limit market size.)

In either case, neither seems like an insurmountable challenge -- as both are evolving rapidly, and for the better.

[ron spencer]

For those wanting to author...I'd love it too...I've authored tons in DVD, including access to the VM commands. It was great, but those days are over. I stream from a server. It is quicker and easier. Everyone I knows streams their stuff, hence I do not feel there is a market for it, despite the "ticks" people check off in other posts. Back in the DVD days I would make DVDs for our kids' sports teams recitals, etc. All the parents wanted them. As time has gone on, nobody wants them. They want files they can save, stream and put on YouTube. This is what the software companies are up against now: lack of demand.

For those who want it, I state it again: Why don't you email the usual suspects? i.e., Sony, Adobe, Corel, TMPGEnc, Cyberlink, and ask them when they will be providing a package to do this? They are the only ones who can give a definitive answer, especially about cost and DEMAND.

@Orbital360, you forget the real barrier for development: consumer demand. They will not make stuff simply for people who post on videohelp. There is absolutely no evidence that people want to author anymore. It is not like the DVD days where one could not stream to your couch. Don't forget, videohelp is a very, very, very, very small segment of the general population, who only wants to stream now. The market for such products is not even niche now. If something comes out it will be crippled and you will complain about it or the price will be stupidly high.

In any case, best of luck waiting...and in finding quality media.


Are you currently authoring anything? DVD, Bluray?

[Orbital360]

Actually, I specifically mentioned both. Market size, and the reasons for authoring a disc in the 'new age'.

But you're right, I get the distinct feeling that a website about 'video help' is entirely the wrong forum to discuss ideas about video authoring. My mistake.

Good luck with the community and all that jazz.

[ron spencer]

@Orbital360 You are right, this is not the right forum to sit and ponder what the software companies are going to do. Call them up! Email them! Have you? You won't get any software written for you by posting here, what you will get is great help with your NLE and Authoring once software comes out.

Your reasons are:

We have the devices to play 4K content. (Tick)
There's an extensive market for 4k display devices. (Tick)
We have the means to record our own 4K content. (Tick)
We now have the means to store and archive that content. And, if you're willing to pay a little extra -- archive it as a durable, long-term solution (read: 1000 years, if you believe the hype in the form of M-DISC). (Big tick)

I don't see any reasons here for authoring. People use hard drives and SSDs now, not optical media. And M-DISC is nowhere; your average user doesn't know what it is. Users now have no use for optical media, even though there are still uses for it as you mention. Simple supply and demand. With cheap hard drives, easy to make NAS devices and turnkey ones by Synology and QNAP, people don't consider optical media and authoring anymore (sadly). The 'new age' is streaming.


I once wanted to do lots of authoring with BluRay, but nothing came along like DVDLab, so I forgot about it. Times have changed, so go with the times or try to do something about it: have you contacted anyone? If you have, let us know what they say.

[_Al_]

Having creating customs menus, I used to enjoy it, to design what DVD specs could allow, not just software generated menu, it has to have some kick to it right, but after some time, it turned out to be a nightmare basically, lots of time to create these, to create menu and submenus would take sometimes more time than actually shooting some short event and nobody cares about menus anyway. That was just DVD, some VM commands, later there was PGCEdit that made it more easy using just any DVD authoring. For UHD perhaps one needs to use Java (not sure if that is the same like for Blu-Ray) or something to try to compete with Hollywood. That comes with lots of hours dedicated to learn all of this. And to learn how to handle software, whatever language dedicated for it.

So be careful what you wish for, as they say

I'd certainly would not want to create UHD with authored menu to be every videographers duty. I'd feel sorry for them already. To start to create this as a hobby, sure go ahead but write back actually how many people are going enjoy your menu, maybe as a hobby, it does not matter but anyway. And menu is the reason to author disc. Folder or directory structure with subdirectories with properly named clips seems to be even far superior in a sense. And it is ready for any player, copy etc.

[ezcapper]

It looks like the majority (all?) of these uhd players will play "discs with user recorded content" such as mp4 burned on a blu-ray disc. I'm going to use that as a workaround when I get my UHD player. Personally, my favorite movie is Big Buck Bunny, I plan on playing it in my UHD player on an mp4 disc many many times

http://media.datatail.com/docs/manual/311882_en.pdf

[Eugene157]

Steve, if you do not need or want UHD BR burning, i accept that.

But please do not tell me to get lost just because I would like to have that feature, and at some point I will.

This thread was started by someone asking specifically about UHD BR burning, why are you here anyway if you have nothing to contribute to that very specific question??

Eugene

[TE16]

http://www.scenarist.com/

The only UHD Authoring software available.

[ron spencer]

@Eugene157

Have you contacted any software vendors, such as Sony, Adobe, Corel, TMPGEnc, Cyberlink, etc to see if they will be making anything and the cost? That seems to be a first step. You won't get an answer here unless a forum member works there or has suitable connections. Let us know what you hear.

Here is some food for thought from an authoring forum. There are many similar posts you can find via our friend google.

For the moment, Scenarist UHD is it, and you aren't allowed to have it unless you're a member of the Justice League. Ain't nothing else available, though Sony is doing their own thing with their own software that might come out down the line. Right now though, there are only four replication sources for the whole industry and all the authoring is being done by Sony or Technicolor. Based on the discussions I've seen, the industry wants to keep things the way they are and force content owners/creators/whatever term you want to use to go through them for content prep and disc authoring, so that they can make their profits. Until more replicators invest in UHD-BD - and replicators are doing horribly since Blu-Ray became successful - there won't be any big demand for the tools. Then there's also the consumer side of things. 4K camcorders and such are now available, but not selling well at all and nobody has really expressed any desire to flesh out a consumer version of authoring software for 4K content, despite the plethora of 4K video editing packages available to consumers.

If this is true, then you better get on the blower to the software makers as soon as you can.

[usually_quiet]

Steve, if you do not need or want UHD BR burning, i accept that.

But please do not tell me to get lost just because I would like to have that feature, and at some point I will.

If you believe that even after reading what Cornucopia wrote, you didn't get the gist of it -- reverse engineering would be incredibly difficult and so far the parties in control are not interested in granting licenses for UHD Blu-ray to software companies for the purpose of producing consumer authoring software. The solution the industry thinks is most appropriate for consumers (and it's available now) is UHD Blu-ray player support for 4K video files, burned to optical media or stored on a USB 3.0 drive.

Also consider that Cyberlink has been working on a licensed UHD Blu-ray software player since last year but it won't be available this year, and there has been no announcement of a release date at all. They cite a lack of appropriate hardware in the hands of consumers as part of the reason. http://www.cyberlink.com/support/faq-content.do?id=19074

[Eugene157]

In fact it should be fairly easy to provide burning software for UHD BR, TsMuxer does that for BR for example. It is a matter of setting up a hierarchy so that the player finds the files that are to be played.
It has nothing to do with encoding etc, virtually all editors today like Cyberlink PD14, provide 4K HEVC codecs that should work on a UHD player.

The problem is to point the player in the right direction to find the file.

I suspect that there are licensing fees involved, so Cyberlink feels, correctly so, that there is insufficient demand at this point to justify those fees.

But since there is money to be made it will eventually show up, perhaps as a plug in. That is how Pinnacle systems did it over 10 years ago with HD, I paid over $100 for it to do HD Blu Ray. They were one of the first to provide HD AVCHD burning in this price class.

I asked TEMPGenc, no reply, as to the others, I doubt they will bother to answer, and if they do it is "we are working on it"

I read on the AVS forum that the latest LG WH16NS40 and PS4 will read UHD BR format disc and show the hierarchy tree. You can dig down to the video file and play it if it is not encrypted.

But I believe that playback of commercial UHD BR discs on a pc will be extremely unlikely because of security concerns. Most recent vintage pc's could play the video w/o problems.



Eugene

[usually_quiet]

In fact it should be fairly easy to provide burning software for UHD BR, TsMuxer does that for BR for example. It is a matter of setting up a hierarchy so that the player finds the files that are to be played.
It has nothing to do with encoding etc, virtually all editors today like Cyberlink PD14, provide 4K HEVC codecs that should work on a UHD player.

The problem is to point the player in the right direction to find the file.

I suspect that there are licensing fees involved, so Cyberlink feels, correctly so, that there is insufficient demand at this point to justify those fees.

But since there is money to be made it will eventually show up, perhaps as a plug in. That is how Pinnacle systems did it over 10 years ago with HD, I paid over $100 for it to do HD Blu Ray. They were one of the first to provide HD AVCHD burning in this price class.

I asked TEMPGenc, no reply, as to the others, I doubt they will bother to answer, and if they do it is "we are working on it"

I read on the AVS forum that the latest LG WH16NS40 and PS4 will read UHD BR format disc and show the hierarchy tree. You can dig down to the video file and play it if it is not encrypted.

But I believe that playback of commercial UHD BR discs on a pc will be extremely unlikely because of security concerns. Most recent vintage pc's could play the video w/o problems.



Eugene

Burning and authoring are two very different animals. I have no idea why you think that UHD Blu-ray would be a good candidate for reverse engineered authoring software when every UHD Blu-ray disc is encrypted and the files are unreadable. Reverse engineering Blu-ray authoring proved difficult even after decryption was available, and none of the free Blu-ray authoring software that was reverse engineered is a complete solution. Only licensed authoring software provides good access to anything beyond the most basic features.

Cyberlink has announced they are committed to producing a UHD Blu-ray software player. They are already members of Ultra HD Blu-ray Development Group http://www.cyberlink.com/prog/company/press-news-content.do?pid=3926 You are correct that meeting the security requirements won't be easy, and much of that is dependent on the PC having hardware that supports those requirements. However, the studios producing UHD Blu-ray discs do want people to buy them, and have apparently allowed this project to go forward. Consumer authoring software is a different story.

[Eugene157]

I never used the word reverse engineering, there is nothing to reverse engineer.

I was talking about software like TsMuxer, that will direct the BR player towards the file to be played. That is the missing link.

Has nothing whatsoever to do with encryption. Only want to burn and then play my own UHD videos on a Phillips, Samsung or Panasonic UHD player.

Eugene

PS read about TsMuxer, that, written for the UHD BR format, is missing.

[ron spencer]

So you want a simple muxer then, not an authoring program (an authoring program has a muxer, yes, but is so much more). Whoever wrote it would need the UHD specs, not sure if these are free. If not then it WOULD need to be reverse engineered from a decrypted UHD, which is unlikely to happen.

A muxer really doesn't provide anything...no menus, etc., except for the movie on disc with autoplay. No different than a movie server, which can hold all your movies, not just one or two.

I hope it happens, but I'm not thinking it will for a very long time...if ever.

[_Al_]

Authoring without menu (done with tsMuxer), is much more simple as oppose to author with menu. Video is encoded strictly to Blu-Ray spec stream. It sounds easy on paper, but in reality there are all kinds of problems going that way including chapters, testing it, correct encoding, subtitles, how to get video out of videoeditor if that is the case etc. As oppose just edit something and export (regular settings) and just burn it on disc if that is a case.

[ron spencer]

It is also most likely the case that the UHD players mentioned will play UHD files from camcorders anyway....Bluray players already do that with AVCHD.