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  1. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Now THAT's a workaround I can get behind, particularly for homebrew 4k material!

    Scott
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  2. Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    Some of you were waiting for some "multiAVCHD" equivalent" , something poped up, TSM2UHD. It suppose to work differently, it fixes BDMV structure for UHD video to play it on UHD player. I guess it makes UHD player to believe it is Blu-Ray and plays it. But because of it, max bitrates must be set accordingly as for BD, not UHD.
    Thanks for that. An interesting development indeed.
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  3. BD-J and even BDMV are out of the hands of the average consumer/indie, but BDAV is readily available for under $100. So what if the fancy popups or whatever they are building into UHD BD never find their way to the masses? I am nearly 100% confident some sort of consumer version will.
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    Correct !
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    Originally Posted by nomikhan View Post
    BD-J and even BDMV are out of the hands of the average consumer/indie, but BDAV is readily available for under $100. So what if the fancy popups or whatever they are building into UHD BD never find their way to the masses? I am nearly 100% confident some sort of consumer version will.
    There is a reason why only pro UHD Blu-ray authoring software costing thousands of dollars is available. The reason is that existing UHD Blu-ray spec requires using pressed media, which is something that only large commercial entities can afford to do. Consumers and small businesses can only afford to use burned media, which isn't covered in the UHD Blu-ray spec, so no licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software can be written to meet their needs.

    A new spec for UHD Blu-ray on burned media is still being written. Until it is finished, it won't be possible to begin development on licensed consumer software capable of UHD authoring, and new UHD Blu-ray players won't be required to play UHD Blu-ray on burned media.

    Don't expect to see any licensed consumer UHD Blu-ray software until at least a year or two after the new spec is finished.
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    Baloney: The reason is that existing UHD Blu-ray spec requires using pressed media

    There are multiple reports that the recent modification of TSmuxer has allowed owners of pressed UHD BD discs to make 1:1 copies on their pc burners using 25/50 GB blanks..

    Others report that they can burn the main video and audio only on smaller capacity discs.

    So owners of 4K UHD video material like me, can now burn their edited camcorder material so that it is recognized as a UHD BD disc, not just as a video file.

    It is the data on the disc that is the key NOT how it was produced.

    Still not there yet but a step in the right direction. Cyberlink in one of their recent newsletters indicated that they are working on it, that the specs are available.

    Eugene
    Last edited by Eugene157; 2nd Feb 2018 at 13:00.
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    Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post
    Baloney: The reason is that existing UHD Blu-ray spec requires using pressed media

    There are multiple reports that the recent modification of TSmuxer has allowed owners of pressed UHD BD discs to make 1:1 copies on their pc burners using 25/50 GB blanks..

    Others report that they can burn the main video and audio only on smaller capacity discs.

    So owners of 4K UHD video material like me, can now burn their edited camcorder material so that it is recognized as a UHD BD disc, not just as a video file.

    It is the data on the disc that is the key NOT how it was produced.

    Eugene
    Eugene, you clearly don't understand how technology licenses work. Companies like Cyberlink, which license a technology must follow a spec, and often, their product must pass certification before being it can be released. The current UHD Blu-ray spec requires pressed media. Cyberlink itself released a statement that they needed the official spec for UHD Blu-ray on burned media before they can begin development on licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software.

    From PDNews, Issue 7 December 2017:
    Some users have been asking for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning. Can you update the readers on the industry’s position and when CyberLink may implement this feature?

    “Sure. When we were planning and developing PowerDirector 16, there was no official specification document for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning. This spec is provided by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) and is what we use as the guideline for development for Blu-ray related features, including for both playback and burning.

    The BDA’s specification is required for industry standard development and is needed to achieve the official Ultra HD Blu-ray logo certification. This logo certifies that all burned discs are playable on standalone Ultra HD Blu-ray players and has always been one of the deciding factors for our development. If we did not adhere to the BDA specification and did the development on our own, the playability of the resulting discs would not be consistent across players.

    We also had discussions with several optical disc drive manufacturers, and were led to believe that at the time they had not started implementing Ultra HD Blu-ray burning in their devices.

    However, there is some positive news to report as there is now a draft spec for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning, and we will be considering this feature for a future version once the spec is set.”
    A link to download Issue 7 may be found at https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/64399.page

    TSM2UHD is unlicensed authoring software. It was reverse-engineered, so it doesn't have to comply with any specs, and the discs it produces are not actually UHD Blu-ray discs, because they don't conform to the existing spec for UHD Blu-ray in at least a couple of ways. Some or all UHD Blu-ray players play these off-spec discs anyway but are not required to do so by the terms of their license. However, since UHD Blu-ray players aren't required to play discs that are not to spec, it is possible that some won't play them.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 2nd Feb 2018 at 13:34.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by Eugene157 View Post
    Baloney: The reason is that existing UHD Blu-ray spec requires using pressed media

    There are multiple reports that the recent modification of TSmuxer has allowed owners of pressed UHD BD discs to make 1:1 copies on their pc burners using 25/50 GB blanks..

    Others report that they can burn the main video and audio only on smaller capacity discs.

    So owners of 4K UHD video material like me, can now burn their edited camcorder material so that it is recognized as a UHD BD disc, not just as a video file.

    It is the data on the disc that is the key NOT how it was produced.

    Eugene
    Eugene, you clearly don't understand how technology licenses work. Companies like Cyberlink, which license a technology must follow a spec, and often, their product must pass certification before being it can be released. The current UHD Blu-ray spec requires pressed media. Cyberlink itself released a statement that they needed the official spec for UHD Blu-ray on burned media before they can begin development on licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software.

    From PDNews, Issue 7 December 2017:
    Some users have been asking for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning. Can you update the readers on the industry’s position and when CyberLink may implement this feature?

    “Sure. When we were planning and developing PowerDirector 16, there was no official specification document for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning. This spec is provided by the Blu-ray Disc Association (BDA) and is what we use as the guideline for development for Blu-ray related features, including for both playback and burning.

    The BDA’s specification is required for industry standard development and is needed to achieve the official Ultra HD Blu-ray logo certification. This logo certifies that all burned discs are playable on standalone Ultra HD Blu-ray players and has always been one of the deciding factors for our development. If we did not adhere to the BDA specification and did the development on our own, the playability of the resulting discs would not be consistent across players.

    We also had discussions with several optical disc drive manufacturers, and were led to believe that at the time they had not started implementing Ultra HD Blu-ray burning in their devices.

    However, there is some positive news to report as there is now a draft spec for Ultra HD Blu-ray burning, and we will be considering this feature for a future version once the spec is set.”
    A link to download Issue 7 may be found at https://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/64399.page

    TSM2UHD is unlicensed authoring software. It was reverse-engineered, so it doesn't have to comply with any specs, and the discs it produces are not actually UHD Blu-ray discs, because they don't conform to the existing spec for UHD Blu-ray in at least a couple of ways. Some or all UHD Blu-ray players play these off-spec discs anyway but are not required to do so by the terms of their license. However, since UHD Blu-ray players aren't required to play discs that are not to spec, it is possible that some won't play them.
    As long as we can (at least in theory) produce a 4K disc that can be read by existing 4K blu ray players (not data disc with video files), then we should not care whether the technology is licensed or if it is an official UHD standard. For comparison, AVCHD-DVD is not directly compatible to a standard Blu Ray disc (different folder structure etc), but one can produce such a disc and play it without any issue on existing Blu Ray players, and this is what we want! Who cares about standards and licenses? Unless they are professionals of course and they need to sell the result. All consumers should not care.
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    Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
    As long as we can (at least in theory) produce a 4K disc that can be read by existing 4K blu ray players (not data disc with video files), then we should not care whether the technology is licensed or if it is an official UHD standard. For comparison, AVCHD-DVD is not directly compatible to a standard Blu Ray disc (different folder structure etc), but one can produce such a disc and play it without any issue on existing Blu Ray players, and this is what we want! Who cares about standards and licenses? Unless they are professionals of course and they need to sell the result. All consumers should not care.
    Maybe you don't know, but not every Blu-ray player ever made plays AVCHD discs. Support for AVCHD was gradually added as it became more popular. BTW AVCHD is governed by its own standard, derived from the Blu-ray standard.

    Consumers should care about standards because having a standard to work from ensures that players can reliably play that type of media. jdobbs notes he didn't have a copy of the UHD Blu-ray standards document to work from and doesn't guarantee that every UHD Blu-ray player will play discs created by TSM2UHD. His software is to be used at your own risk.
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    Quote:
    As long as we can (at least in theory) produce a 4K disc that can be read by existing 4K blu ray players (not data disc with video files), then we should not care whether the technology is licensed or if it is an official UHD standard. For comparison, AVCHD-DVD is not directly compatible to a standard Blu Ray disc (different folder structure etc), but one can produce such a disc and play it without any issue on existing Blu Ray players, and this is what we want! Who cares about standards and licenses? Unless they are professionals of course and they need to sell the result. All consumers should not care. End quote

    Exactly!!!

    If it works leave it alone.

    And it will only get better from here. And my hat off to JDOBBS!

    Eugene
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    @Eugene What if TSM2UHD stops working? There is a chance that a future UHD Blu-ray player bought by you or by a family member will refuse to play discs that you created with TSM2UHD today, especially after the BDA has a standard in place for UHD Blu-ray on burned media. Maybe jdobbs can update TSM2UHD at that point, but it won't improve the playability of discs produced by older versions of TSM2UHD. Those will have to be reauthored.

    Although we must continue to wait patiently for it, using licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software would make for better compatibility with future UHD Blu-ray players.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 3rd Feb 2018 at 11:24.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    @Eugene What if TSM2UHD stops working? There is a chance that a future UHD Blu-ray player bought by you or by a family member will refuse to play discs that you created with TSM2UHD today, especially after the BDA has a standard in place for UHD Blu-ray on burned media. Maybe jdobbs can update TSM2UHD at that point, but it won't improve the playability of discs produced by older versions of TSM2UHD. Those will have to be reauthored.

    Although we must continue to wait patiently for it, using licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software would make for better compatibility with future UHD Blu-ray players.
    No sweat! In such unlucky case you should be able to rip the movie into a video file (preferably without re-encoding, so quality is intact) and then create a new disc according to the newer standard. So all you have to do is simply convert your discs to the new standard, not very convenient, but it works.
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    Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    @Eugene What if TSM2UHD stops working? There is a chance that a future UHD Blu-ray player bought by you or by a family member will refuse to play discs that you created with TSM2UHD today, especially after the BDA has a standard in place for UHD Blu-ray on burned media. Maybe jdobbs can update TSM2UHD at that point, but it won't improve the playability of discs produced by older versions of TSM2UHD. Those will have to be reauthored.

    Although we must continue to wait patiently for it, using licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software would make for better compatibility with future UHD Blu-ray players.
    No sweat! In such unlucky case you should be able to rip the movie into a video file (preferably without re-encoding, so quality is intact) and then create a new disc according to the newer standard. So all you have to do is simply convert your discs to the new standard, not very convenient, but it works.
    The technical term for that process is "re-author".
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    @Eugene What if TSM2UHD stops working? There is a chance that a future UHD Blu-ray player bought by you or by a family member will refuse to play discs that you created with TSM2UHD today, especially after the BDA has a standard in place for UHD Blu-ray on burned media. Maybe jdobbs can update TSM2UHD at that point, but it won't improve the playability of discs produced by older versions of TSM2UHD. Those will have to be reauthored.

    Although we must continue to wait patiently for it, using licensed UHD Blu-ray authoring software would make for better compatibility with future UHD Blu-ray players.
    No sweat! In such unlucky case you should be able to rip the movie into a video file (preferably without re-encoding, so quality is intact) and then create a new disc according to the newer standard. So all you have to do is simply convert your discs to the new standard, not very convenient, but it works.
    The technical term for that process is "re-author".
    Yes, that's the word. My advise is to try whatever works now. The more you wait for a standard the more delays you get. As long as we can reauthor the movies without losing quality (or at least without perceptible loss in quality), then why wait? Start a small collection now. For comparison AVCHD wasn't easy to create straight away, neither was a standard when it was first available. Today most Blu Ray players also play AVCHD discs but in the first days none did! So save the waiting, I prefer using what is available today.
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    Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
    Yes, that's the word. My advise is to try whatever works now. The more you wait for a standard the more delays you get. As long as we can reauthor the movies without losing quality (or at least without perceptible loss in quality), then why wait? Start a small collection now. For comparison AVCHD wasn't easy to create straight away, neither was a standard when it was first available. Today most Blu Ray players also play AVCHD discs but in the first days none did! So save the waiting, I prefer using what is available today.
    AVCHD had two powerful industry leaders in the consumer electronics industry backing it (Sony and Panasonic) which also happened to be two of the founding members of the Blu-ray Disc Association. Other companies making HD cameras were also BDA members. It really is not a surprise that AVCHD gained official support, but consumer electronics giants are unlikely to care about making players which officially support discs produced using jdobbs Blu-ray authoring trick.

    Sure, TSM2UHD is available now, and the discs it produces are playable by at least some UHD-Blu ray players, but the same is true for UHD media files burned on Blu-ray as data. However, neither kind of disc qualifies as a UHD Blu-ray and there is no official requirement for UHD Blu-ray players to support either of them. Manufacturers decide whether or not to add the ability to play video on data discs on their own, and the ability to play TSM2UHD's off-spec Blu-ray discs appears to be coincidental.

    My point is that anybody using TSM2UHD should be made aware that the playability of the discs it produces is not guaranteed, not now and not in the future.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 5th Feb 2018 at 15:02. Reason: grammar, clarity
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by spapakons View Post
    Yes, that's the word. My advise is to try whatever works now. The more you wait for a standard the more delays you get. As long as we can reauthor the movies without losing quality (or at least without perceptible loss in quality), then why wait? Start a small collection now. For comparison AVCHD wasn't easy to create straight away, neither was a standard when it was first available. Today most Blu Ray players also play AVCHD discs but in the first days none did! So save the waiting, I prefer using what is available today.
    AVCHD had two powerful industry leaders in the consumer electronics industry backing it (Sony and Panasonic) which also happened to be two of the founding members of the Blu-ray Disc Association. Other companies making HD cameras were also BDA members. It really is not a surprise that AVCHD gained official support, but consumer electronics giants are unlikely to care about making players which officially support discs produced using jdobbs Blu-ray authoring trick.

    Sure, TSM2UHD is available now, and the discs it produces are playable by at least some UHD-Blu ray players, but the same is true for UHD media files burned on Blu-ray as data. However, neither kind of disc qualifies as a UHD Blu-ray and there is no official requirement for UHD Blu-ray players to support either of them. Manufacturers decide whether or not to add the ability to play video on data discs on their own, and the ability to play TSM2UHD's off-spec Blu-ray discs appears to be coincidental.

    My point is that anybody using TSM2UHD should be made aware that the playability of the discs it produces is not guaranteed, not now and not in the future.
    As long as the disc you create one way or another play on your own player and on your friends' player or wherever you want to use them, you should not care it they don't play elsewhere. And when the technology is mature you can always re-encode to a new more standard format, hopefully without affecting quality.
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    DVDFAB UHD CREATOR

    Very slowly but surely. :4 days ago - New! DVDFab x64 10.0.8.3 Beta is out (February 23, 2018)

    Eugene
    Last edited by Eugene157; 27th Feb 2018 at 18:46.
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    Slowly. And as we have been trying to explain, there is nothing “sure” about it.
    It is a lucky coincidence (based on the flexibility of parsing code) that this works at all.
    And it could be revoked at any time by the powers that be.

    If you want something you can bet on, you should first wait until the spec for R/RE/RWs is decided upon.
    THEN, you should go with apps that license that spec.
    Then and only then would it be prudent to commit your precious personal materials to a CE UHD *AUTHORED* disc format.
    Or take up a reverse-engineered, quasi-authoring app if you must. Then.

    Of course I strongly recommend that users create their 4K material and at least burn the media data files to disc (as well as cloud & usb flash, externals, etc). But then that’s why we have been saying “that’s not authored, and there may no longer be any need for consumer authoring”.

    Interesting to notice that all the DVDFab examples seem to be showing “Despicable Me”, which may or may not be a piracy violation but certainly is a stupid use for this feature: if you already have a legit 4kUHDBD copy, just decrypt and rip an ISO and then burn to recordable.

    Scott
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  19. Hmmm, not sure if that moves us any closer to an authoring tool. However, if the only thing holding back legit authoring tools is a finalization of the BD-R spec, then that sounds like a question of when, not if—my OP.

    Also, I would strongly recommend never copying personal 4K content to the cloud or usb flash unless you don't care if it gets hijacked, lost, corrupted etc. And that is the main reason I posted this thread. There is a certain level of permanence that an authored disc offers over even burning files to disc. I fully expect this point to be lost on most as most also feel external spinning rust is a legitimate form of backup. I am happy to author BD/DVD until something comes along as the hard part of authoring is not the downsampling between formats. The 4K masters get their own archive anyway so will always be available when that day comes.

    Now, if I could just get some idea of how much longer...
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  20. Originally Posted by nomikhan View Post
    BD-J and even BDMV are out of the hands of the average consumer/indie, but BDAV is readily available for under $100. So what if the fancy popups or whatever they are building into UHD BD never find their way to the masses? I am nearly 100% confident some sort of consumer version will.
    I just realized this is lifted straight from my post here. Oh well, I guess the sincerest form of flattery....
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