Converting PAL DVD to NTSC and retaining the subtitles

[RBTO]

At that point, I thought splitting cells would fix things (and that was the link you referenced), but now from what you're saying, I need to create a new cell boundary near the desired layer change point.

Splitting cells is creating a new one. One cell becomes two cells and the new cell boundary created should be within the sector number range mentioned in the ImgBurn error message.

I'll probably play with VobBlanker some more just to learn more about it. After I had gone through and split the cells in the three episodes, I was happy until VobBlanker crashed while doing its thing. Then I couldn't reboot it and the zip file wouldn't open (and I couldn't delete VobBlanker from my machine until I rebooted) so I gave up (I didn't particularly want to go through and put in all those break points again anyway). I still have the original downloaded files for VobBlanker on a thumbdrive so at some future date, I might try setting it up again.

I just finished recompiling two chapters in AVStoDVD and improved the menu page while I was at it. That went fine and the result fills a DL DVD 70%. When I put ImgBurn to its task, it gave some layer change points right at the chapter change which couldn't be better in terms of any disruptions the layer change might cause. The first of three discs is burning now and I will take a look on the big screen tonight. I'm going to try 2 different video encoding in AVS to DVD to see if it matters but the result looked great on my laptop screen.

At this point all is well and I think my task is done, all thanks to a lot of help from the contributors to this thread.

[RBTO]

I guess I jinxed myself with my last post. Last night I watched the disc I created using my Panasonic player. The video is great and converted well with just a small loss of sharpness but still isn't bad for a DVD even on the big screen. Motion conversion was very good with no judder nor noticeable artifacts. My lasting problem is the subtitles. They appear just fine using my laptop and the MPC HC player but with my stand-alone Panasonic, they are at the far bottom of the screen and many times, some are cut off and don't show.

I did a frame grab from the original PAL and the converted NTSC disc just to illustrate resolution and in doing so, noticed that the PAL frames are almost square and need to be stretched horizontally to fit the 16:9 format. The NTSC frames fit without being stretched. From that I might assume that the subtitle frame is not being stretched and when centered, the text is positioned where it is. Why the MPC player would get it right is a mystery.

Anyway, I'm open to suggestions (again). If there isn't a cure for this, I could be back to using johnmeyer's suggestion for watching the disc set.

I'm attaching the frame grabs along with an enlargement of each (yellow highlighted area) just to show the conversion quality. The left is the original PAL frame and the right is the converted NTSC frame. The PAL frame was adjusted in photoshop to the proper aspect ratio to match the NTSC frame.

[manono]

They appear just fine using my laptop and the MPC HC player but with my stand-alone Panasonic, they are at the far bottom of the screen and many times, some are cut off and don't show.

I have no idea why the subs might appear correctly when played with software but too low when played through your hardware DVD player. It might be something you could take up in the main AVS2DVD support thread:

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/277852-AVStoDVD-Support-Thread

However, there's a fix for your problem, but it will mean the subs might be too high when played through software. You can easily raise the subs using DVDSubEdit

http://download.videohelp.com/DVDSubEdit/UserManual/helpfile.htm

Scroll down to sec 2.7 for the instructions how to raise the subtitles. You'll be doing it for a single line so after you have that one line (a double line) the way you want, then read sec 2.1 for how to have the same done for all lines and then how to save the work.

[RBTO]

I've been thinking about the problem and it may be that AVStoDVD didn't resize the subtitle imagery as it did with the main feature images. It may be that since MPC HC can handle PAL files, it doesn't care and does the resizing itself but the stand-alone player assumes the subtitles are in a 720x480 format and let's them hang down in the frame when superimposing them on the main video. I will take this up with the AVStoDVD forum and see what they say. DVDsubEdit sound's interesting so I'll look into it also.

I was thinking that if the subtitle video could be extracted, resized, and reinserted (using the final NTSC version and assuming the subtitles weren't clipped and missing the parts below the frame line - probably not since the MPC player still shows all the title), that might fix things. Is there a tool that would allow this? I have Adobe Premiere and can drop video into it in PAL format and it will output it as 720x480 although I'm limited on what video formats I can use. I would assume that the subtitles may be in mpg format????

More to think about.........

[manono]

I was thinking that if the subtitle video could be extracted, resized, and reinserted (using the final NTSC version and assuming the subtitles weren't clipped and missing the parts below the frame line - probably not since the MPC player still shows all the title), that might fix things.

I don't use AvsToDVD and have no idea how it handles subs when doing the PAL2NTSC conversions. Of course, if trying to use the original DVD subs not only should the positioning be changed for the lower resolution NTSC DVD format, but the size of the subs should be decreased. I've done that a few times when doing such conversions. You have to extract the BMPs (SubRip can do it) and then use Gimp or some such to do a batch resize before then making fresh DVD subtitles for reauthoring.

As far as I'm concerned, though, much easier is to OCR the subs and then make my own NTSC subs. Anyone with even a little bit of knowledge can usually make subs as good as or better than the ones in retail DVDs. Doing it yourself you can also choose font, size, position, outlines, colors, etc. DVDSubEdit can do a (fairly) decent automatic OCR to SRT text subtitles. Maybe you can feed those into Avs2DVD for use in your converted DVD, but I wouldn't know about that.

Unless the subs look noticeably too big, and if you intend to play the converted DVDs on television, I think I'd just raise their positions using DVDSubEdit.

[RBTO]

I've got DVDSubEdit running and it's a great little program. By boosting all the subtitles 90 pixels upwards (other than a few story location titles that actually looked better moved the other way and centered), the problem is fixed. DVDSubEdit shows the problem when a VOB is opened, and makes it easy to fix it. I did movement, title by title, although there's probably a batch function that I'll look for later. I'm burning another disc right now and will report on the results. I left a note on the AVStoDVD support thread so maybe someone there knows how to fix the problem in that program.

Off hand, how does one go about creating a series of sub texts from scratch (say you wanted to put subs on a feature without them), and then import those into the VOBs (tool list please)? I wouldn't mind replacing the subs on "The Saboteur" because, as you say, they aren't the best, but that would be a project for another day when I have a lot of time on my hands and just want to do it for a learning exercise.

[manono]

Virtually any subbing program can create subtitles. That's what they do. Different people have their own preferences. I don't create them usually, but do a helluva lot of editing. All the time. I OCR the DVD subs to SSA text-based subs using SubRip. I work on them in SSA with the aid of a mono WAV file for timing until I'm satisfied. I then import them into MaestroSBT to have them converted to the graphics-based SST format for authoring with Muxman. I set the overlay colors using PGCEdit afterwards. If there are transparency issues, it's DVDSubEdit to the rescue.

Other authoring programs might want them in other formats. For example, DVD-Lab Pro accepts SON graphics-based subtitles.

[RBTO]

Virtually any subbing program can create subtitles. That's what they do. Different people have their own preferences. I don't create them usually, but do a helluva lot of editing. All the time. I OCR the DVD subs to SSA text-based subs using SubRip. I work on them in SSA with the aid of a mono WAV file for timing until I'm satisfied. I then import them into MaestroSBT to have them converted to the graphics-based SST format for authoring with Muxman. I set the overlay colors using PGCEdit afterwards. If there are transparency issues, it's DVDSubEdit to the rescue.

Other authoring programs might want them in other formats. For example, DVD-Lab Pro accepts SON graphics-based subtitles.

Thank's for that manono. I was hoping for something simpler that could convert like bitmap text to subs. Most of those programs are over my head. I need to do a lot more studying of subtitles anyway before I'm ready to jump in to making my own.

[theewizard]

as i understand it, your major problem is a region 2 DVD that won't play in your DVD player
have you tried
making a region free PAL dvd
many current dvd players and tvs will accept PAL video

[RBTO]

as i understand it, your major problem is a region 2 DVD that won't play in your DVD player
have you tried
making a region free PAL dvd
many current dvd players and tvs will accept PAL video

Unfortunately, I'm not one of the folks who have a PAL compatible DVD player. My Panasonic Blu-Ray just sits there when I put a PAL in it (it does give some nasty little message telling me it won't work). Early on, when I purchased the PAL version of "The Saboteur", I decided to make this a learning experience. I had already converted a region 1 PAL (Brazil) for a friend (thanks to this forum's help). "The Saboteur" presented a few more challenges. It was region 2 which was easily handled when I ripped it to region free, but unlike the previous disc I had done, it had a lot of subtitles that were necessary to the transfer. Moving subtitles (and getting them positioned properly) proved to be a whole new thing, though a good challenge which kept me going. I learned a lot in the process.

Anyway, I wanted the equivalent discs that would play on my Panasonic and be viewable on the big screen, and as an end result of all this, now I have those. I can put them in my disc library and when I want to pop them in to watch, they're ready to go.

[RBTO]

Now, I think I'm to my last posting (other than to answer any questions for other members). I tried my disc last night, and it worked great. manono's suggestion for moving the subtitles using DVDSubEdit worked fine (and I did find the batch function manono which made the process a whole lot easier). The PALtoNTSC conversion was good and the subtitles look fine (other than the funky look the originals have), so I'm quite pleased with the result. Now I have to finish the other two discs, and watch the movie.


Thank's again thread contributors!

[johnmeyer]

I appreciate that input. In my other thread where I did the conversion, I got into the reasoning for wanting a disc (to provide a neophyte friend a disc he could play in his stand-alone player since he wouldn't be able to handle the steps you mention to play his PAL original).

In this case, I too wanted a disc I can pop in my stand-alone player which feeds my home theater projector (no TV or other PAL capable device involved), but also I like the learning challenge presented by this exercise. I've already used your technique successfully (and I think I mentioned playing the original PAL files using MPC HC which displayed the subtitles versus my first conversion attempts which did not) using my laptop, but I just don't want the inconvenience of pulling out my laptop when I want to watch this feature, and would rather go the disc route (I can accept the slight drop in image quality due to the conversion process plus the multi-channel audio track is preserved).

I really think the learning process is what has me hooked because at one point, I was going to do exactly what you mention, but once I got started, I was challenged by the whole process. Now it looks like I'm almost there, and in overcoming several obstacles (with the help of the contributors to this thread), I've learned several new tools and a lot about DVD structure and subtitles so it's been good (not that I'd want to do this whole process again on just any PAL feature).

Hey, it's your time, not mine. It takes about two minutes to hook up the laptop to the TV in your media room, and even less time if you leave the cables connected. By contrast, you will spend hours doing the conversion, and the quality of the result will most definitely be worse. You will notice the difference, even if you use the best possible methods (I've used QTGMC for my conversions).

So, you can spend several hours of computer time each time you want to do this again, and end up with a disc that has worse video, or you can spend 1-2 minutes connecting the laptop to the big screen, and get perfect video with no compromises.

[RBTO]

Hey, it's your time, not mine. It takes about two minutes to hook up the laptop to the TV in your media room, and even less time if you leave the cables connected. By contrast, you will spend hours doing the conversion, and the quality of the result will most definitely be worse. You will notice the difference, even if you use the best possible methods (I've used QTGMC for my conversions).

So, you can spend several hours of computer time each time you want to do this again, and end up with a disc that has worse video, or you can spend 1-2 minutes connecting the laptop to the big screen, and get perfect video with no compromises.

I didn't mean to knock your method at all, and in fact considered doing it that way at one point, but I find the whole conversion process interesting and would rather just have a disc to plop in my machine. The conversion for me wasn't all that bad (see the image grabs I posted - #32) and accomplished the goal I had in mind. Keep in mind that any method including using your computer, involves conversion to view the disc on your NTSC type display. You'd always be changing frame rate and H&V pixel counts to get it to your display (unless it's a PAL display). You're right in saying that it would take hours of time - it did for me, but that was before I learned the technique. Now, it would take about 2 hours to fully convert a single disc (and most of that is transcoding time) from start to finish (not counting burning the disc). I'm out doing something else during most of that time, so no big deal.

Didn't mean to say anything demeaning if you got that impression. Like I said, if I had a PAL disc that I just wanted to take a look at on my home theater, out would come my laptop and I'd do it the way you described. If I want to add it to my permanent collection, then that might be another story.

[RBTO]

manono, just one last question. Is there a way in DVDSubEdit to make the subtitles show without the need to switch subtitles on in the player? The subtitles in "The Saboteur" should always show (for me since I can understand the foreign dialogue), and with the menu AVStoDVD provides, one can't specify "subtitles on" without resorting to the subtitle button on the player remote (which some remotes don't have). Is that what's referred to as "forced subtitles"? Thanks

[manono]

manono, just one last question. Is there a way in DVDSubEdit to make the subtitles show without the need to switch subtitles on in the player?

No, you use PGCEdit for that. Here's a guide:

http://download.videohelp.com/r0lZ/pgcedit/third_party/2cool/subtitles/subtitles_on_de...lt_pgcedit.htm

Now, PGCEdit's GUI changed since then and it might seem a little daunting. However, the basic steps are:

1. Open the DVD and highlight the episode whose subs you want on by default. (Step 2 in the guide)
2. Add the NOP in the pre command section as described in the guide. (Steps 8, 9 and 10)
3. Change that NOP to the correct STN command (Steps 11-14)
4. Save and Test. (Steps 20 and 21, although I test with my software player, MPC-HC)

You'll have to do this for each of your three episodes. After doing the first, the other two will be easy. You can skip the rest of the guide. He's just covering all the bases but the chances are very good, for example, that you'll never need to do all the 'break' stuff. Doing it this way allows you or anyone else to turn off the subs using the remote control if you want. With another step (the OPTIONAL at the very bottom) you can make it so they can never be turned off. I wouldn't recommend that, but if you did it then those would be Forced Subs.

[johnmeyer]

Didn't mean to say anything demeaning if you got that impression. Like I said, if I had a PAL disc that I just wanted to take a look at on my home theater, out would come my laptop and I'd do it the way you described. If I want to add it to my permanent collection, then that might be another story.

No, there was nothing wrong with your post. I probably shouldn't have started mine with "it's your time, not mine." I certainly understand the thrill of figuring out a technical challenge and getting it to work.

If you didn't have the subtitle requirement I would refer you to a thread by Nick Hope where he describes his "ultimate" way of converting PAL <--> NTSC using QTGMC. I have converted several PAL discs to NTSC using his method (I did these for a client who did not have a laptop DVD player or game console). The results were indeed quite good but, as is always true with any workflow that uses motion estimation, there are sometimes artifacts with certain types of motion.

[RBTO]

manono, just one last question. Is there a way in DVDSubEdit to make the subtitles show without the need to switch subtitles on in the player?

No, you use PGCEdit for that. Here's a guide:...........................

Thank's again manono! Does look a little "daunting" but I'll give it a go. Appreciate your help.

[RBTO]

Didn't mean to say anything demeaning if you got that impression. Like I said, if I had a PAL disc that I just wanted to take a look at on my home theater, out would come my laptop and I'd do it the way you described. If I want to add it to my permanent collection, then that might be another story.

No, there was nothing wrong with your post. I probably shouldn't have started mine with "it's your time, not mine." I certainly understand the thrill of figuring out a technical challenge and getting it to work.

If you didn't have the subtitle requirement I would refer you to a thread by Nick Hope where he describes his "ultimate" way of converting PAL <--> NTSC using QTGMC. I have converted several PAL discs to NTSC using his method (I did these for a client who did not have a laptop DVD player or game console). The results were indeed quite good but, as is always true with any workflow that uses motion estimation, there are sometimes artifacts with certain types of motion.

Thank's johnmeyer. Glad no one offended. I used AVStoDVD at the suggestion of a member in an earlier thread for PAL to NTSC conversion, so I just started with that as a base program and since it handled subtitles, it worked out well (the feature isn't much good to me without them). Will check into QTGMC, but I really don't expect to be converting that many PAL features in my lifetime.

[johnmeyer]

Here's the QTGMC PAL <==> NTSC conversion information:

Perfectionists' PAL<=>NTSC Conversion

He says it is slow, which it is, but I modified his script to use the multi-threaded version of AVISynth and I get pretty good performance, near real-time with standard DVD video.

P.S. The guy who wrote this (Nick Hope) is an American expat living in Thailand, making his living doing National Geographic-style underwater documentaries. He sells his stuff worldwide, so he has to do a lot of these conversions.

[RBTO]

Here's the QTGMC PAL <==> NTSC conversion information:

Perfectionists' PAL<=>NTSC Conversion

He says it is slow, which it is, but I modified his script to use the multi-threaded version of AVISynth and I get pretty good performance, near real-time with standard DVD video.

P.S. The guy who wrote this (Nick Hope) is an American expat living in Thailand, making his living doing National Geographic-style underwater documentaries. He sells his stuff worldwide, so he has to do a lot of these conversions.

Thanks johnmeyer. I'll check into that.
It's interesting where all the contributors of these various softwares live and what they do - "all walks of life".

[RBTO]

No, you use PGCEdit for that..........

That worked great too manono. Had to figure out what he was doing in his demo page in terms of modifying the program - interface of the latest version looks real spiffy - but then it was piece of cake to make the mod - no BREAK command involved. Looks like PGCEdit would have a lot of other uses.

Thanks again.