Why is my audio/video out of sync?? (Plex, PS3)

[Downgraded286]

First I'll start by saying I use my PS3 to connect to my Plex server (via wired LAN, so no internet or wireless issues could be to blame). I don't use the actual Plex app with the PS3, I just go through the PS3's media system to play my stuff.

i had a problem previously with my audio and video being out of sync. At the time, it seemed it was happening because I used variable frame rate. I've since switched to constant frame rate, and it seems to have fixed the issue, until now. One prime example is Lewis Black - Stark Raving Black on DVD. I do it the same way I do everything else when it comes to DVD ripping: I run it through MakeMKV, and check if it needs deinterlacing or detelecining. This one was already progressive scan, so I went straight to Handbrake. I load it up and transcode it into a h.264 .mp4 and stick it in my Plex folder. Constant framerate is checked. Then, I go and play it with the PS3 and the audio and video is a bit off. Some things I do wind up worse than others. Some come out seemingly spot on. With the Lewis Black special I mentioned, I tried doing it over and got the same result. It plays fine on my PC of course, but from the PS3 the audio and video is out of sync.

One questionable piece of info, however, comes from Mediainfo. Even though I've re-done this movie and more than double checked I have constant frame rate set, mediainfo tells me this:

Frame rate mode : Variable 
Frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) fps 
Minimum frame rate : 23.974 fps 
Maximum frame rate : 23.981 fps

I'm not sure why it's showing variable (I've checked my Handbrake settings many times), but the variation is so small I think it would have no impact. I have previously encoded stuff (with VFR) that came out similarly with a small variation in frame rate and it seemed to play normally on my PS3. Only when there was a wide variance, such as ~30 being the high point and ~15 being the low point for example, was there audio/video desync before.

[Bernix]

The desync is because of VFR. It is default in handbrake and Vidcoder. You dont know how long the min max FR last. And are you sure that the original audio is 23.976 ?
I suggest you use Vidcoder. It works with handbrake engine, but it has richest graphical interface for settings.

Bernix

[Downgraded286]

I can try vidcoder and see if it makes any difference. I am sure I set handbrake to use constant framerate though. I'll double check the source as well, but I'm pretty sure it was already 23.976 progressive.

[manono]

I'll double check the source as well, but I'm pretty sure it was already 23.976 progressive.

Ignoring the fact that all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps (or 59.94fields per second), how do you know the whole thing was encoded as progressive 23.976fps? One way to be sure is to open the DVD VOBs in DGIndex, go File->Save Project and have a look at the resulting D2V file in Notepad or some other text file reader. Only if it says 100.00% FILM down at the bottom was it encoded entirely as progressive 23.976fps.

[Cauptain]

Plex have horrible desync VFR source on my PS3.

Using same source (VFR) on Serviio, its play flawless.

Try Serviio. Its very close "perfect DLNA server" for SAMRTPHONE/PS3/SMART TV.



Claudio

[Downgraded286]

I'll double check the source as well, but I'm pretty sure it was already 23.976 progressive.

Ignoring the fact that all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps (or 59.94fields per second), how do you know the whole thing was encoded as progressive 23.976fps? One way to be sure is to open the DVD VOBs in DGIndex, go File->Save Project and have a look at the resulting D2V file in Notepad or some other text file reader. Only if it says 100.00% FILM down at the bottom was it encoded entirely as progressive 23.976fps.

Well, Mediainfo reports the scan type as Progressive and... something strange for the framerate. This is coming from the source file made by MakeMKV.

Frame rate mode : Variable 
Frame rate : 23.976 (23976/1000) fps 
Original frame rate : 23.976 (24000/1001) fps

Mediainfo reports the .IFO and .VOB files on the actual disc as 29.97, though. I also noticed MakeMKV reporting that framerate, and Mediainfo within MPC-HC reported that framerate during disc playback. It seems odd to me why this should happen.


I tried using Vidcoder. It did the same thing as Handbrake, and I even tried forcing it to not only encode constant frame rate but I specified 23.976fps. In doing some searching I found someone with a similar issue and it was said that this problem occurs with the .mp4 container, but when you use the .mkv container it doesn't happen. And guess what? If I set it to output .mkv it comes out properly. But, I can't use .mkv, I need .mp4.

[videobruger]

Maybe you could re-mux your MKV to MP4 with ffmpeg

ffmpeg -i MyVideo.mkv -codec copy MyVideo.mp4

[manono]

Well, Mediainfo reports the scan type as Progressive...

Means nothing. It's reporting only on the first frame and not the entire video. I already explained how to determine if the whole thing was encoded as progressive 23.976fps. I'd be willing to bet it's not.

It seems odd to me why this should happen.

I already explained why - that all NTSC DVDs output interlaced 29.97fps. That's done using hard or soft telecine. Maybe you've heard of 3:2 pulldown? Your progressive 23.976fps sections would have had 3:2 pulldown applied. The non-progressive sections would have the telecine encoded into the video (probably), which could perhaps explain why the audio goes out of synch. If your DVD isn't 100% FILM, as described in my previous post, then you should IVTC it or detelecine it, or whatever the hell Handbrake or Vidcoder call it.

I found someone with a similar issue and it was said that this problem occurs with the .mp4 container, but when you use the .mkv container it doesn't happen.

I've made many hundreds of MP4s and MediaInfo reports them all as being Constant Framerate. But I don't use Handbrake or Vidcoder either.

[Cauptain]

RIPBOT264 produce 100% compliant files with PS3.

No desync, no lag, no stuttering, no audio skip, nothing, niet, nada.

Its a very easy encoder. 10/10.

Try Vidcoder/Handbroke = Headache.



Claudio

[jagabo]

Handbrake uses a time constant of 90000 in MP4. Ie, frame s are displayed for N/90000 seconds, where N is an integer. For a 24000/1001 fps video each frame must be displayed for 3753.75/90000 seconds. Displaying each frame for a constant 3753/90000 or 3754/90000 seconds would result in slow audio/video desynchronization. So Handbrake marks the video as VFR and alternates the timestamps between those two values. Ie, three frames are displayed for 3754/90000 seconds, then the fourth for 3753/90000 seconds, on avarage 3753.75/90000 seconds.

[Downgraded286]

@Cauptain
Might try that Serviio, and I've considered revisiting Ripbot264 already, for some other reasons... but now I have this one too.

@Manono
Well, I also check by simply watching bits of the video in MPC-HC with all the deinterlacing filters off. If I see the telltale signs of interlacing or telecining I take the appropriate action with AviSynth, if not, I just load it into Handbrake. If the actual video is progressive but like the credits or something is interlaced I don't care to deinterlace the credits, and to be honest I'm not sure what effect deinterlacing or detelecining would have on the progressive bits of a mixed video. I will take a look with DGIndex this weekend when I have some time to spend on frivolities, lol.

@jagabo
Yeah, some more digging on the issue seems to suggest it's a bug within Handbrake that happens when you use 23.976FPS in .mp4 container. I've posted about it over in the Handbrake forums.

[manono]

I will take a look with DGIndex this weekend when I have some time to spend on frivolities, lol.

Frivolities? And if it's the reason your audio goes out of synch, it's a frivolity? You're the one that opened this thread about the 'problem'. And you already know how to use AviSynth yet you prefer Handbrake? And I don't think the problem has anything to do with the VFR MP4 videos Handbrake creates. That's a red herring. And a frivolity.

[jagabo]

@jagabo
Yeah, some more digging on the issue seems to suggest it's a bug within Handbrake that happens when you use 23.976FPS in .mp4 container.

No, it's a feature.

[Downgraded286]

I will take a look with DGIndex this weekend when I have some time to spend on frivolities, lol.

Frivolities? And if it's the reason your audio goes out of synch, it's a frivolity? You're the one that opened this thread about the 'problem'. And you already know how to use AviSynth yet you prefer Handbrake? And I don't think the problem has anything to do with the VFR MP4 videos Handbrake creates. That's a red herring. And a frivolity.

I didn't mean frivolity as in something I don't care about, I meant it as something that isn't a necessary thing in life. I do care about the issue, it's screwing with half my Plex stuff.

As for avisynth, really I only know enough about it to use qtgmc and tivtc. My avisynth results always lose audio, subtitles and chapter markers. That's why I still use Handbrake, at least for now.


@jagabo pretty crappy feature if you ask me... maybe it's done that way for a good reason but in my case at least it just screws everything up.

[manono]

...but in my case at least it just screws everything up.

I already mentioned I don't think it's in any way responsible for your problem. Making it VFR as it does doesn't change the video length. The video length is being changed, yes, but not because of it being VFR.

Well, I also check by simply watching bits of the video in MPC-HC with all the deinterlacing filters off.

Useless and a waste of time. I suspect that without the proper filters, your video is being treated in Handbrake the same as using 'Ignore Pulldown Flags' in DGIndex - a recipe for out-of-synch audio unless the video is 100% film or 100% video. I think I know what's going on but unless and until you make the D2V file using DGIndex as I suggested, there's no point in guessing.

[jagabo]

@jagabo pretty crappy feature if you ask me...

Of course. But it's been that way in handbrake for years. There's no way it's a bug that they are unaware of.

maybe it's done that way for a good reason

My guess is there's some ancient Mac hardware that had a 90000 Hz video clock, so Apple defined that as the standard at the time, and Handbrake has decided to continue using it.

[Downgraded286]

@manono dgindex reports 75.78% film. It won't save a .d2v file (well it does, but it's totally empty, 0 bytes), but the window that comes up when I try to do that tells me some info.

The picture appears totally progressive to me, I detect no signs of interlacing or telecining anywhere, thus I have no "2-3" pattern to look for. This is how I determined whether to use IVTC or deinterlace in the past. How do I decide what to do now?

-ed I feel I should add I only see the desync on my PS3. My PC plays it fine, both playing directly with MPC-HC and through Chrome (via Plex). I'd try the actual Plex app on the PS3, but... it's borderline unusable IMO.

[manono]

That 75.78% pretty much confirms my suspicions. If there really is no interlacing, then there's always the possibility they added duplicate frames rather than duplicate fields I suppose.

To confirm your trouble making a D2V - you opened the VOBs for the main movie or episode and nothing else? No menu VOBS or any other crap? And then you went File->Save Project File? You got an empty D2V? What about the audio you're also supposed to get? Nothing?

Scroll around to make sure that the VOBs are only of your main video and not any trailers or logos or other garbage. If there's other material, scroll to where your movie or episode begins and use the [ button to have it begin there. Or try cutting off the very beginning by going a few frames in using the > arrow followed by [. That should skip the first few frames. Try and save it again.

Also, maybe cut out ten seconds or so so we can have a look. Scroll into the video and then use the [ and ] buttons to isolate a little bit, preferably a short section with movement. Preview it (File->Preview) to make sure it's not 100% film. Then File->Save Project File and Demux Video. You can upload the resulting M2V here.

My PC plays it fine...

Plays what fine? The DVD or the MP4 you made using Handbrake? If the MP4, then maybe Cauptain was right in his suspicions.

[Downgraded286]

Doh, I used dgindex on the mkv made my makemkv.

I'm having a tough time opening the files on disc with dgindex though. I tried making an ISO of the disc and that fails too. MakeMKV is the only thing I've tried that doesn't seem to have an issue.

@Manono I mean the file I made with Handbrake. My PC hasn't had any issues with any videos I've encoded in the past with VFR either, before I started using constant frame rate.

[jagabo]

Doh, I used dgindex on the mkv made my makemkv.

Demux the MPEG 2 video from the MKV then index that instead of the MKV file. DgIndex doesn't always work right with MKV files.

[Downgraded286]

That says 99.97% FILM at the bottom.

[manono]

@Manono I mean the file I made with Handbrake. My PC hasn't had any issues with any videos I've encoded in the past with VFR either, before I started using constant frame rate.

Okay, there's no issue with the audio being out of synch when just playing the MKVs on the computer. You might have mentioned that earlier because now it looks as if Claudio was right about there being some problem playing Handbrake-produced files through Plex to a PS3. I wouldn't know anything about that as I use neither Handbrake nor a PS3. I do use a Roku box and Plex and don't have the problem you describe. His first suggestion was to use Serviio instead of Plex. His second was to use RipBot264 for encoding to MP4. I use RipBot myself, feeding it AviSynth scripts and separate audio to create my MP4s.

That says 99.97% FILM at the bottom.

And it looks as if the only non-film frames are a few at the very end. So, it really was encoded progressively with 3:2 pulldown applied and not being 100% film isn't the reason the audio goes out of synch. But I was under the impression it was out of synch everywhere and not just on the PS3. Or maybe I just assumed because it was out of synch on the PS3 it was out of synch everywhere.

For future reference, just looking here and there through an MKV made from a DVD to see if there's interlacing or not isn't really a foolproof way to figure out if it was encoded progressively all the way through or not. It's just as quick to open the VOBs, make the D2V file and then examine it.

[Downgraded286]

I'm not sure what it is myself. I've encoded tons of MP4 with Handbrake, and the only time I had a problem was back when I started doing this and I still used VFR. Now I use CFR, but since I started doing that I've produced many 23.976FPS MP4s with Handbrake in the same way as I did this one. This is the only time I've noticed the problem, but looking back on previous encodes I see they're all VFR with a small variance in frames just like this one. For whatever reason, Handbrake won't make a CFR 23.976FPS video. Ripbot264 will, so I'll probably go that route. I wish they would fix this issue in Handbrake, because that's what I'm used to using, but eh... this isn't always easy.

[Downgraded286]

I tried Serviio with the mp4 produced by handbrake, it still has the desync.

[Downgraded286]

I've posted about it over at the handbrake forums, under the bugs section. I don't know if linking to other forums is allowed, but I'm sure anyone interested could go there and find it. One of the members there suggested disabling B-Pyramid, and it seems to have solved the desync issue on my PS3 (though, mediainfo still reports a slight variance in FPS jsut like before). I don't understand why that got rid of the desync, though. Is the PS3 that bad of a media player? Why doesn't the desync occur in any of my 29.97FPS encodes then?

...

I just realized this turned into a triple-post, I was going to edit and merge with the post above but I don't seem to be able to delete my own posts. :/

[El Heggunte]

I've posted about it over at the handbrake forums, under the bugs section. I don't know if linking to other forums is allowed, but I'm sure anyone interested could go there and find it.

It's okay to link to other forums. According to the Videohelp rules, only warez and p0rn links are forbidden.

Sadly I don't have an answer to your questions, because I don't use Handbrake and I don't have a PS3.

[jagabo]

Is the PS3 that bad of a media player?

Yes.

[Cauptain]

Is the HANDBROKE a bad encoder?

Yes!!