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  1. Member
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    Well, I've been toying with the PVR 60 and, while I like it okay, the 2 channel only sound is making it's way towards a deal breaker. I was looking backwards at the PVR 2 and I'm not sure if that would be better or not, despite the lack of p60.

    It seems if you read long enough you can find someone to tear down or build up every device out there.

    I want to capture TV at the best reasonable quality and I'd like 5.1 sound.

    My CPU on my PC is only a core 2 quad at 2.4ghz, so it seems some of the newer things might even have an issue there. I have had no problems at all so far with the PVR 60 (although I had to manually load the drivers and upgrade the firmware because the hauppage capture install didn't do it properly).

    I know this is a pretty open-ended question but what are the pitfalls of going with the pvr2? I know it would only do p60 as p30 but in all frankness, I'm not completely sure I understand what that would mean to me. I'd like to avoid an internal card - should I go to the elgato hd60?

    Thanks in advance - I hope you all can point me in the right direction...
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    The HD PVR-2 (non-gaming) and HD PVR-2 Gaming Edition Plus cannot encode to AC3. They are only able to record 5.1 channel AC3 audio if they have a 5.1 channel AC3 audio source to record. If they receive a 5.1 channel LPCM source, they encode it as 2 channel AAC audio. I don't believe they can record from other digital audio formats. That being said, recording 5.1 channel AC3 doesn't always work out as well as recording 2-channel AAC from LPCM due to errors in the AC3 stream being recorded. As I recall, the regular HD PVR-2 Gaming Edition can only record 2-Channel AAC.

    The Elgato HD60 can only record 2-channel AAC audio.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Mar 2016 at 12:17.
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  3. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Get a Tuner/PVR with HDD and record the raw MPEG2 stream, it will also saves the metadata as well, Capturing digital TV or cable from an analog source is not a good ideas. Even when you record TV from an HDMI output, The data stream will be decoded by the player's chip and sent out through the HDMI cable and then the HDMI capture device's chip will re-encode the signal to a format that can be saved, This is always a problem when recording ATSC which is only MPEG2 and the capture device will re-encode to MPEG4, there will be a loss of quality.
    I don't record TV a lot but I use DVICO TVIX PVR6620N it records both Clear QAM (Cable) and ATSC (OTA) to the built in hard drive, If you need to access the recording from your computer just access it from window or mac explorer and you can play them or copy them to the computer, I would recommend this box if it wasn't for the price, but there are alternatives especially if you don't have cable, ATSC only.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 27th Mar 2016 at 12:54. Reason: Added info
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    Get a Tuner/PVR with HDD and record the raw MPEG2 stream, it will also saves the metadata as well, Capturing digital TV or cable from an analog source is not a good ideas. Even when you record TV from an HDMI output, The data stream will be decoded by the player's chip and sent out through the HDMI cable and then the HDMI capture device's chip will re-encode the signal to a format that can be saved, This is always a problem when recording ATSC which is only MPEG2 and the capture device will re-encode to MPEG4, there will be a loss of quality.
    I don't record TV a lot but I use DVICO TVIX PVR6620N it records both Clear QAM (Cable) and ATSC (OTA) to the built in hard drive, If you need to access the recording from your computer just access it from window or mac explorer and you can play them or copy them to the computer, I would recommend this box if it wasn't for the price, but there are alternatives especially if you don't have cable, ATSC only.
    You are making a lot of assumptions. For all we know, doncaruana may be recording HDMI out from a video game console.

    ...and even if doncaruana is recording TV, there are situations where recording the HDMI output from a set top box is the only way to get an HD recording that can be played with something other than the service provider's DVR or the PC that made the recording.
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    I want to capture TV at the best reasonable quality and I'd like 5.1 sound.
    assuming that statement means what it implies

    using something like the HomeWorx PVR with external USB HDD, provides a duplicate of the broadcast TS/mts stream
    including all audio channels

    there is no encryption and the files can be accessed by any PC with MPC-HT or an editor like video redo
    many options
    avstodvd will accept the files for authoring
    the HomeWorx pvr can be had for as low as $39-$49 amazon or walmart
    it is ATSC OTA broadcast only, coax RF input, built in tuner
    for cable you will need a different but similar unit
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    Originally Posted by theewizard View Post
    I want to capture TV at the best reasonable quality and I'd like 5.1 sound.
    assuming that statement means what it implies

    using something like the HomeWorx PVR with external USB HDD, provides a duplicate of the broadcast TS/mts stream
    including all audio channels

    there is no encryption and the files can be accessed by any PC with MPC-HT or an editor like video redo
    many options
    avstodvd will accept the files for authoring
    the HomeWorx pvr can be had for as low as $39-$49 amazon or walmart
    it is ATSC OTA broadcast only, coax RF input, built in tuner
    for cable you will need a different but similar unit
    OK I missed that the OP said he was recording TV.

    However, you and dellsam34 are still making a lot of assumptions. Not everybody has clear QAM cable channels or access to OTA TV. Most who subscribe to a paid TV service have some kind of set top box.

    If someone has satellite service or TV service from AT&T, they must record from their receiver/DVR.

    Recording from a cable box or DVR is often the best choice, even if someone has cable TV service. Some cable service providers, such as Comcast, have no clear QAM channels at all. Others provide only local channels as clear QAM, and everything else is encrypted. A CableCARD tuner will work for all such cable service providers, but if a channel is marked copy-once (and for some providers most are), recordings will be encrypted. Encrypted WTV files won't be watchable except on the individual PC that made them, and even then, making a hardware upgrade to the PC or re-installing Windows will make recordings unplayable.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 27th Mar 2016 at 14:18.
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  7. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    We are all making assumption until the OP clarifies what kind of TV source he wants to record, There is no universal solution for all, If he wants to record TV broadcasts bit by bit with no loss then an external TV tuner DVR or a USB TV tuner is a must, If he wants to record video games / encrypted cable / Encrypted satellite / Internet Streaming / VOD ..etc out of an HDMI port that's a different story and can be complicated due to copyrighted laws and HDCP limitation, And I have no expertise in that anyway.

    There are DVR's that don't encrypt recordings on the HDD, Tivo and proprietary provider's box not one of them.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 27th Mar 2016 at 15:19. Reason: Added info
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    If he wants to record video games / encrypted cable / Encrypted satellite / Internet Streaming / VOD ..etc out of an HDMI port that's a different story and can be complicated due to copyrighted laws and HDCP limitation, And I have no expertise in that anyway.
    I have some experience recording HDMI out from a set-top box with a Hauppauge HD-PVR Colossus. Much of what applied to the Colossus applies to the HD-PVR 2. I have also used a CableCARD tuner, an ATSC tuner for OTA TV, and a clear QAM tuner for cable.

    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    There are DVR's that don't encrypt recordings on the HDD, Tivo and proprietary provider's box not one of them.
    A Tivo encrypts recordings from cable channels marked copy-once. kmttg can transfer a TiVo's recordings from OTA channels or copy-freely cable channels to a PC.

    Premium channels such as ShowTime or HBO are elegible for copy-never protection, although not every service provider does it. FWIW, recording the output of a set-top box is the only means of recording copy-never channels. Even the provider's own equipment won't record them.
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  9. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Here is what you can get from an internal DVR, It's lossy but that's how it was sent from the broadcaster, No decoding/encoding involved.
    Image Attached Files
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    seems LOW on bitrate for OTA
    was this recorded from cable or satellite
    they transcode/compress the video
    my OTA recordings are in the 12mb-14mb bitrate, for 1920*1080, i guess it depends on the station you recieve and how they have configured their equipment

    this is the info from (1) of the recordings i made during the 2014 winter Olympics, OTA broadcast recorded with the HomeWorx PVR

    General
    ID : 291 (0x123)
    Complete name : G:\Toshiba Hard Drive transfer\Toshiba Canvio Hard Drive\HBPVR\Winter Olympics 2014\NBC-4LA-02152014-2000.mts
    Format : BDAV
    Format/Info : Blu-ray Video
    File size : 21.6 GiB
    Duration : 3h 30mn
    Overall bit rate mode : Variable
    Overall bit rate : 14.7 Mbps

    Video
    ID : 49 (0x31)
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : MPEG Video
    Format version : Version 2
    Format profile : Main@High
    Format settings, BVOP : Yes
    Format settings, Matrix : Custom
    Format settings, GOP : Variable
    Codec ID : 2
    Duration : 3h 29mn
    Bit rate mode : Variable
    Bit rate : 13.5 Mbps
    Maximum bit rate : 24.0 Mbps
    Width : 1 920 pixels
    Height : 1 080 pixels
    Display aspect ratio : 16:9
    Active Format Description : Full frame 16:9 image
    Frame rate : 29.970 fps
    Color space : YUV
    Chroma subsampling : 4:2:0
    Bit depth : 8 bits
    Scan type : Interlaced
    Scan order : Top Field First
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 0.218
    Stream size : 19.8 GiB (92%)

    Audio #1
    ID : 52 (0x34)
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : AC-3
    Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension : CM (complete main)
    Format settings, Endianness : Big
    Codec ID : 129
    Duration : 3h 30mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 384 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 6 channels
    Channel positions : Front: L C R, Side: L R, LFE
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Delay relative to video : -153ms
    Stream size : 577 MiB (3%)
    Language : English

    Audio #2
    ID : 53 (0x35)
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : AC-3
    Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension : CM (complete main)
    Format settings, Endianness : Big
    Codec ID : 129
    Duration : 3h 30mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 96.0 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 1 channel
    Channel positions : Front: C
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Delay relative to video : -89ms
    Stream size : 144 MiB (1%)
    Language : Spanish

    Audio #3
    ID : 54 (0x36)
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : AC-3
    Format/Info : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension : VI (visually impaired)
    Format settings, Endianness : Big
    Codec ID : 129
    Duration : 3h 30mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Bit rate : 96.0 Kbps
    Channel(s) : 1 channel
    Channel positions : Front: C
    Sampling rate : 48.0 KHz
    Bit depth : 16 bits
    Compression mode : Lossy
    Delay relative to video : -121ms
    Stream size : 144 MiB (1%)

    Text #1
    ID : 49 (0x31)-CC1
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : EIA-608
    Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
    Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
    Duration : 3h 29mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)

    Text #2
    ID : 49 (0x31)-1
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Format : EIA-708
    Muxing mode : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
    Muxing mode, more info : Muxed in Video #1
    Duration : 3h 29mn
    Bit rate mode : Constant
    Stream size : 0.00 Byte (0%)

    Menu
    ID : 48 (0x30)
    Menu ID : 3 (0x3)
    Duration : 3h 30mn
    List : 49 (0x31) (MPEG Video) / 52 (0x34) (AC-3, English) / 53 (0x35) (AC-3, Spanish) / 54 (0x36) (AC-3)
    Language : / English / Spanish
    Last edited by theewizard; 28th Mar 2016 at 01:29.
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  11. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    It's clear cable, not OTA.
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    Originally Posted by theewizard View Post
    seems LOW on bitrate for OTA
    was this recorded from cable or satellite
    they transcode/compress the video
    my OTA recordings are in the 12mb-14mb bitrate, for 1920*1080, i guess it depends on the station you recieve and how they have configured their equipment

    this is the info from (1) of the recordings i made during the 2014 winter Olympics, OTA broadcast recorded with the HomeWorx PVR
    It's pretty common to have lower bitrates on OTA channels that share bandwidth with mulitple channels. For example 10.1/10.2/10.3. Usually one HD channel and one or two SD channels. Depending on what error correcting FEC system they are using, there is only 17-18MBit worth of video/audio data bandwidth available per ATSC frequency. 2-4 Mbits per SD channel.

    Below is the info on a HD channel I recorded that also has to share the bandwidth with 2 other SD channels.

    Code:
    General
    Complete name                            : O:OTA Recording.mpg
    Format                                   : MPEG-PS
    File size                                : 4.12 GiB
    Duration                                 : 53mn 20s
    Overall bit rate mode                    : Variable
    Overall bit rate                         : 11.1 Mbps
    
    Video
    ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)
    Format                                   : MPEG Video
    Format version                           : Version 2
    Format profile                           : Main@High
    Format settings, BVOP                    : Yes
    Format settings, Matrix                  : Custom
    Format settings, GOP                     : Variable
    Format settings, picture structure       : Frame
    Duration                                 : 53mn 20s
    Bit rate mode                            : Variable
    Bit rate                                 : 10.5 Mbps
    Maximum bit rate                         : 24.0 Mbps
    Width                                    : 1 920 pixels
    Height                                   : 1 080 pixels
    Display aspect ratio                     : 16:9
    Frame rate                               : 29.970 fps
    Color space                              : YUV
    Chroma subsampling                       : 4:2:0
    Bit depth                                : 8 bits
    Scan type                                : Interlaced
    Scan order                               : Top Field First
    Compression mode                         : Lossy
    Bits/(Pixel*Frame)                       : 0.168
    Time code of first frame                 : 00:00:00;00
    Time code source                         : Group of pictures header
    GOP, Open/Closed                         : Open
    GOP, Open/Closed of first frame          : Closed
    Stream size                              : 3.90 GiB (95%)
    
    Audio
    ID                                       : 189 (0xBD)-128 (0x80)
    Format                                   : AC-3
    Format/Info                              : Audio Coding 3
    Mode extension                           : CM (complete main)
    Format settings, Endianness              : Big
    Muxing mode                              : DVD-Video
    Duration                                 : 53mn 20s
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Bit rate                                 : 384 Kbps
    Channel(s)                               : 2 channels
    Channel positions                        : Front: L R
    Sampling rate                            : 48.0 KHz
    Compression mode                         : Lossy
    Delay relative to video                  : 23ms
    Stream size                              : 147 MiB (3%)
    
    Text #1
    ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)-CC1
    Format                                   : EIA-608
    Muxing mode                              : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
    Muxing mode, more info                   : Muxed in Video #1
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Stream size                              : 0.00 Byte (0%)
    
    Text #2
    ID                                       : 224 (0xE0)-1
    Format                                   : EIA-708
    Muxing mode                              : A/53 / DTVCC Transport
    Muxing mode, more info                   : Muxed in Video #1
    Bit rate mode                            : Constant
    Stream size                              : 0.00 Byte (0%)
    Last edited by KarMa; 28th Mar 2016 at 06:46.
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    Guess I owe some explanations!!

    Yes, my concern is recording from TV where this is concerned. No so worried about 5.1 game sound. So, for the sake of argument, I really need to be able to use the set top box. I've already dealt with HDCP, and the quality of the PVR60 at 11Mbps full 60p works fine (that's the default, although it goes to 16Mbps). It's just the sound that's bugging me at this point. The cable box outputs "surround" and 1080p60 so I'd like to be able to actually capture that. But that seems like chasing a unicorn if I want to stay outside my PC.
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    You don't record from TV
    TV don't have video out, at least nothing in consumer grade that I am aware of
    You record before it gets to the TV
    I'm sure that is what you mean

    You say one thing then something else

    The homeworx unit is stand alone goes between the antenna and the TV
    Records to USB device, comes with a remote , use it like a VCR

    Of you are trying to record from a receiver box and want 5.1
    That is something different, you are dealing with HDMI and copy protection
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    theewizard:

    "Record from TV" means not from a game console which was suggested as a possibility above. I also further clarified using the set top box and mentioned the cable box. In addition, I said I've already dealt with HDCP. Semantics aside, it's abundantly clear to me that homeworx does not meet my needs. Thanks for your time in replying - I felt that I had fairly clearly stated what I needed to do but I apologize if my wording confused you.

    Back to the original point for anyone out there, is there anything that's not an internal card that will record 1080 at 60fps and still capture the "surround" sound out of my cable box using HDMI?

    Thanks much to all for the replies - this has always been a great board for tons of info and it's greatly appreciated.
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    Originally Posted by doncaruana View Post
    Guess I owe some explanations!!

    Yes, my concern is recording from TV where this is concerned. No so worried about 5.1 game sound. So, for the sake of argument, I really need to be able to use the set top box. I've already dealt with HDCP, and the quality of the PVR60 at 11Mbps full 60p works fine (that's the default, although it goes to 16Mbps). It's just the sound that's bugging me at this point. The cable box outputs "surround" and 1080p60 so I'd like to be able to actually capture that. But that seems like chasing a unicorn if I want to stay outside my PC.
    Set-top boxes from paid TV services typically don't go higher than 1080i or 1080p24, so the inability to capture 1080p60 is rarely an issue for those who are capturing from set top box, and not a PC or game console.

    As far as I know, other than Hauppauge's HD-PVR 2 product line, and the original HD-PVR, there aren't any USB 2.0 consumer capture products that can capture 5.1 audio. ...but all of the above either don't accept 1080p60 video input, or capture it as 1080p30 video.

    Magewell makes a professional/prosumer external capture product, the Magewell XI100DUSB-HDMI, where the hardware is capable of capturing 1080p60 video and 5.1 channel LPCM audio, but I doubt that an older system like yours can work with this device. It has a USB 3.0 interface and encodes using software. The other problem is that Magewell's included software can only capture stereo audio. Those who want to capture 5.1 or 7.1 audio need to create their own software using its SDK.

    [Edit] Also, cable TV in the US isn't broadcast at 1080p. Cable broadcast resolutions are 480i, 720p, and 1080i. Recording a signal that is natively 1080i at best as 1080p isn't truly giving you better quality than the original, unless your display device cannot upscale or deinterlace competently.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 28th Mar 2016 at 11:51. Reason: clarity
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  17. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Cable TV and OTA are 1080i 30fps at the highest, That may change with the arrival of UHD to cable and ATSC 3.0 to OTA, Anything recorded above that is just upscaling and sometimes brings more artifacts. You still didn't mention what cable service you have, If paid then you will have to get their proprietary DVR which you will have to pay rental fees on it, If it's clear QAM then just get a third party OTA/Cable DVR box with internal hard drive or plug in USB storage like:
    http://www.epvision.com/HDTVSTB/phdvrx2main.htm
    http://www.digitalconnection.com/products/video/tvixM6620NP.asp
    Just do a google search

    If you want to go fancy and have a home network storage you can buy this piece of software no computer needed, You also need to buy a network TV tuner and then you can watch or record from any device, smart TV, tablet, phone, computer, network media player ...etc
    Last edited by dellsam34; 28th Mar 2016 at 13:31.
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    Originally Posted by dellsam34 View Post
    If you want to go fancy and have a home network storage you can buy this piece of software no computer needed, You also need to buy a network TV tuner and then you can watch or record from any device, smart TV, tablet, phone, computer, network media player ...etc
    Since I have a HDHomerun Prime and am looking for a Windows Media Center replacement that can record copy-once cable channels, I follow the progress of Silicondust's HDHomerun DVR project. One can pay $60 and become a beta tester, but that is it. As far as I can tell, the Silicondust HDHomerun DVR software isn't anywhere near being finished yet, and the View app intended to be distributed with it needs some work too. Once the software is finished, it still needs to pass Cable Labs certification before it can be sold as a Windows Media Center replacement for cable TV subscribers. If one doesn't need to watch or record copy-once cable TV channels, NextPVR, Kodi, and JRiver Media Center can work well with SiliconDust's tuners.

    Let me repeat, the major players in the cable TV industry have few or no clear QAM channels left for anyone to record. If someone cannot connect coax from the wall to their TV and watch digital cable, then a clear QAM tuner isn't going to be of use.

    For the majority of cable channels, the only PC tuner that is going to work for recording/watching TV is a CableCARD tuner. Even that is of limited usefulness to many because watching/recording channels marked copy-once require the use of Windows 7's or Windows 8.1's versions of Windows Media Center, due to the need to encrypt both recordings and the audio and video streams transmitted over a home network.

    Comcast flags most channels copy-freely, premium channels being the main exception. Verizon FIOS flags most channels copy-freely, anything owned by Fox and premium channels being exceptions. Cox and TWC (now owned by Charter) copy-once protect most channels, local TV channels being almost the only copy-freely channels they provide. I don't know what Charter itself does. Cablevision was recently bought by a French company, and is also an unknown at this point.
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  19. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    It is not clear what's the OP wants to record, But there is still some areas where clear QAM is still available, Like where I live, How long it will last? that remains to be seen.
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    well....like he said..video component is not the problem
    but audio...like he said he chasing the Unicorn trying to get 5.1 surround sound
    clear Qam RF into a recording device like has been mentioned will record the complete broadcast all sound channels
    but recording thru HDMI .. most devices, only supports 2 channel stereo

    i setup my PVR to to send raw hdmi audio to the TV then test recorded a sample with the HDMI Cloner box
    the result was mp4 video with PCM stereo 2 channel sound was in the file

    the cloner box only saves 2ch stereo audio track
    Last edited by theewizard; 28th Mar 2016 at 22:58.
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    I want to capture from my cable set top box. And yes, it has 1080p60 (see pic below).

    So let me open it up - does *any* device, internal or external, capture 1080p60 more than 2 channel sound?

    Click image for larger version

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    Originally Posted by doncaruana View Post
    I want to capture from my cable set top box. And yes, it has 1080p60 (see pic below).

    So let me open it up - does *any* device, internal or external, capture 1080p60 more than 2 channel sound?
    Your box (Comcast X1?) may output 1080p60, but no US cable company I've heard of actually broadcasts anything at 1080p60. None even broadcasts movies at 1080p24, like DIRECTV CINEMA does. Even in the small number of cities where a cable service has transitioned to H.264 for HD channels, the highest resolution actually broadcast is 1080i59.97. Deinterlacing and upscaling algorithms can only make an educated guess at what information is missing. They cannot make 1080i59.97 video look the same as if it were filmed and transmitted at 1080p60. You might as well capture at the native broadcast resolution for smaller files and use a video player with decent upscaling and deinterlacing.

    The only other prosumer device that I have heard of that captures 1080p60 and 5.1 channel audio is an internal device, the Blackmagic Design Intensity Pro 4K. It encodes using software, and is not a good choice for the inexperienced, or those using an older system for capturing video.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 30th Mar 2016 at 22:42.
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  23. Capturing Memories dellsam34's Avatar
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    Record at the source resolution and frame rate, deinterlacing is not a good idea unless you know that your DVR chip is doing it the right way and that requires a lot of technical skills.
    The screen shot that you posted is the DVR display resolution, it doesn't mean that the DVR will record in 1080p.
    So let me put it this way, If your cable box is not a DVR type, you will have to spend some money there is no way around it, Either you buy a third party DVR and you only record clear cable, Buy a TiVo for few hundred dollars and pay one time for lifetime DVR or pay monthly, and if you want to use EPG for recording there is few more bucks a month for that service as well, The last option is buy or lease from your cable company a DVR box and pay monthly DVR fees and lease fees if you don't pay upfront for the box.
    And that's why the number of cord cutters is increasing.
    Last edited by dellsam34; 31st Mar 2016 at 02:38. Reason: Added info
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