VideoHelp Forum

Try DVDFab and download streaming video, copy, convert or make Blu-rays,DVDs! Download free trial !
+ Reply to Thread
Results 1 to 20 of 20
Thread
  1. This post is a follow-up to my recent attempt to optimize digitizing a collection of Hi8 home videos. See https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376934-Requesting-Feedback-on-3-Hi8-Video-Capture-Samples. I decided to make a comparison between lossless and DV AVI capture. For lossless capture, I am using a Hauppauge USB-Live 2. For DV AVI, I have a Sony MiniDV (DCR-TRV38) being used in pass through mode and a Canopus ADVC100. Based on the recommendations made to responses from my previous post, I acquired a Hi8 camcorder with S-video out and line TBC (Sony CCD-TRV608). I am using VirtualDub for the capture software. For lossless, I am using the HuffyYUV codec. I have attached a short video clip making a comparison of lossless with TBC Off, lossless with TBC On, DV AVI MiniDV pass through and DV AVI Canopus ADVC100. The Sony CCD-TRV608 has a DNR setting which I left off. The TBC was also turned off for DV AVI capture.


    Lossless TBC Off:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35812&stc=1&d=1456102414

    Lossless TBC On:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35813&stc=1&d=1456102414

    MiniDV pass through:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35814&stc=1&d=1456103112

    Canopus ADVC100:
    https://forum.videohelp.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=35815&stc=1&d=1456103112

    In my opinion, the lossless capture has the most detail and the best color, but I do not appreciate any difference with line TBC. In particular, I find the horizontal lines with motion much more visible with the lossless capture. Line TBC did not seem to improve this which I was most trying to accomplish. Any suggestions?
    Quote Quote  
  2. Member
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    San Francisco, California
    Search PM
    Perhaps the CCD-TRV608 doesn't really have a line TBC. I note that the manual says the function of the TBC is "to correct jitter," implying that it's more of a frame stabilizer.
    Quote Quote  
  3. Originally Posted by JVRaines View Post
    Perhaps the CCD-TRV608 doesn't really have a line TBC. I note that the manual says the function of the TBC is "to correct jitter," implying that it's more of a frame stabilizer.
    I was wondering about that. Well, that means it's going back. (That's why I always buy from Amazon, hassle-free returns).
    Not sure what to do now. I'm not one to easily call it quits, but I feel the need to start making some progress on this project.
    I was thinking about trying out the professional service offered on this site. Maybe try seeing what conversion of one tape looks like before I commit to the whole batch. At least I now know a bit more about what to look for.
    Quote Quote  
  4. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    Originally Posted by VideoDoc View Post
    I do not appreciate any difference with line TBC
    There is a big difference.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	VideoDoc CCD-TRV608 -TBC, USB-Live2.png
Views:	2384
Size:	628.7 KB
ID:	35867 Click image for larger version

Name:	VideoDoc CCD-TRV608 +TBC, USB-Live2.png
Views:	2558
Size:	633.9 KB
ID:	35866

    Having said that, the CCD-TRV608 is oversharpening. Its output here looks a lot less natural than your CCD-TRV32 captures. Knightmessenger in your other thread pointed out that your other camcorder is actually Video8, not Hi8. Were all your tapes recorded using this Video8 camcorder?

    I have found that my Digital8 model oversharpens my Video8 recordings, too.

    In particular, I find the horizontal lines with motion much more visible with the lossless capture. Line TBC did not seem to improve this which I was most trying to accomplish.
    What are you using to view the captures? If you're using a typical PC video player, the DV captures will be deinterlaced for display and the lossless captures won't be. Obviously you will see more interlacing in the lossless captures, then.
    Quote Quote  
  5. Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    Originally Posted by VideoDoc View Post
    I do not appreciate any difference with line TBC
    There is a big difference.

    Image
    [Attachment 35867 - Click to enlarge]
    Image
    [Attachment 35866 - Click to enlarge]


    Having said that, the CCD-TRV608 is oversharpening. Its output here looks a lot less natural than your CCD-TRV32 captures. Knightmessenger in your other thread pointed out that your other camcorder is actually Video8, not Hi8. Were all your tapes recorded using this Video8 camcorder?

    I have found that my Digital8 model oversharpens my Video8 recordings, too.

    In particular, I find the horizontal lines with motion much more visible with the lossless capture. Line TBC did not seem to improve this which I was most trying to accomplish.
    What are you using to view the captures? If you're using a typical PC video player, the DV captures will be deinterlaced for display and the lossless captures won't be. Obviously you will see more interlacing in the lossless captures, then.
    Thank you very much for taking a look at the additional clips I provided. To start with, I stand corrected. The CCD-TRV32 is Video8 and not Hi8. This is an embarrassing mistake on my part. I appreciate Knightmessenger for bringing it to my attention. The 8mm tapes I am trying to convert are a collection from several family members. One used a Hi8 cam which apparently has been lost. Mine is the Sony CCD-TRV32. My in-laws used a Canon ES400VA which is also Video8. After doing some research, I have concluded that the video clip I have provided is from the Canon. I still have access to this cam but it does not have S-video out or line TBC. I agree, I much prefer the color and sharpness produced by my Sony Video8. Unfortunately, it also does not have S-video out or line TBC

    I am actually viewing my video on a Samsung plasma set but streaming through a HTPC I recently built and using a program called OpenELEC. I am just now starting to learn the settings on this program. I assumed it was automatically de-interlacing but discovered I was wrong. When I set the de-interlace setting from AUTO to ON, I immediately appreciated the big difference with TBC that you demonstrate in your captured pic. I have now fixed my interlace artefact problem and my line TBC seems to be working.

    Yesterday I sat my family down and showed them extended clips of the three capture approaches I am analyzing (now properly de-interlaced). So far, everyone (including myself), picked the Sony MiniDV pass through capture approach. When I asked why, most felt that the lossless capture looked too "grainy". Exploring this at higher zoom, my lossless capture seems to definitely have more "noise". A lot of this "noise" seems to be due to rapidly oscillating vertical wavy lines. Although this is best appreciated in real time, I have tried to demonstrate it in the picture below.

    Click image for larger version

Name:	Zoom pic.png
Views:	432
Size:	628.3 KB
ID:	35884

    By comparison, my Sony miniDV seems to be doing a pretty good job of suppressing a lot of this noise. Any suggestions on how I can improve on this with my lossless capture?
    Last edited by VideoDoc; 25th Feb 2016 at 22:15.
    Quote Quote  
  6. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    It's a small gripe, but I would prefer if you didn't quote entire posts, particularly those that include images.

    For what it's worth, the spatial field placement of the second Sony capture is "wrong". One line is cropped from the top, and a bottom black line has been added. To maintain bottom-field-first, the temporal placement has also been changed (each frame starts one field "earlier"). This inconsistency seems to be common across Sony's Digital8 line, and I guess it happens with their MiniDV products too.

    Originally Posted by VideoDoc View Post
    One used a Hi8 cam which apparently has been lost.
    I'd like to see a capture from an actual Hi8 recording, played back using the CCD-TRV608. Just to see whether it oversharpens Hi8 material, too.

    most felt that the lossless capture looked too "grainy". Exploring this at higher zoom, my lossless capture seems to definitely have more "noise". A lot of this "noise" seems to be due to rapidly oscillating vertical wavy lines.
    Yes. Noise present in the original recording, and noise caused by the playback system, is exacerbated by the sharpening.

    Any suggestions on how I can improve on this with my lossless capture?
    One way to improve on it with post-processing is simply by downsizing the width and then upsizing back to the original. (Do not resize the height.) No consumer analog tape format actually contains 720 "pixels worth" of detail, and the high-frequency noise is what's most visible.

    Code:
    AVISource("Sony CCD-TRV608 to Hauppauge TBC-ON DNR-OFF.avi")
    
    LanczosResize(400,height).LanczosResize(width,height) # Arbitrarily-chosen downsize width. A different resizer may be preferable.
    This is the same frame as above but with the resize script, so compare:
    Click image for larger version

Name:	VideoDoc CCD-TRV608 +TBC, USB-Live2 + resize-400w.png
Views:	1064
Size:	597.8 KB
ID:	35885

    You could also try lowering the Sharpness control of the USB-Live2. I have no idea whether it's at neutral by default. I wouldn't necessarily suggest using it to add blur, though. It probably isn't limited to the horizontal direction.
    Last edited by Brad; 25th Feb 2016 at 22:37. Reason: Ninja edit to remove typo removed by VideoDoc's edit!
    Quote Quote  
  7. Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post

    It's a small gripe, but I would prefer if you didn't quote entire posts, particularly those that include images.
    Duly noted. I am still trying to learn the fine details of how to wrap "quotes" and "code". I guess I was just being lazy.


    I'd like to see a capture from an actual Hi8 recording, played back using the CCD-TRV608. Just to see whether it oversharpens Hi8 material, too.
    I will look over my tapes and see if I can figure this out.


    Noise present in the original recording, and noise caused by the playback system, is exacerbated by the sharpening.
    I am curious about what the MiniDV is doing to surpress the noise. Is it using some type of digital noise reduction or is it a byproduct of the DV AVI compression codec?
    Quote Quote  
  8. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    It's at least partially due to the DV compression. High-frequency "details" (noise in this case) are the first to get discarded.
    Quote Quote  
  9. I thought I would take the opportunity to provide some closure on my Video8 transfer project. After spending a considerable amount of time exploring my three options for capture, I have decided to go with DV AVI via MiniDV pass-through. Despite my best efforts with lossless capture, I still feel that using my Sony Mini-DV in pass-through mode produces the best results. I also have the advantage of a work-flow that is relatively simple and an output which is relatively easy to manage. Let me be clear, I was willing to put up with extra work associated with lossless capture if I was able to produce better results. In my hands, that was not the case. With close critical inspection, I can see why lossless capture should produce a better result. Careful frame analysis clearly demonstrates better color and detail. Unfortunately, the overall gestalt of a video watching experience does not always parallel the conclusion of microscopic examination. I am certain that those with more experience and better equipment could have done better. I stress that I am certainly in no position to weigh in on the on-going battle of which is the better technique. As a matter of fact, I still plan to have one of my tapes professionally converted just to appease my academic interest. I would like to thank everyone that took the time to review what I submitted and generously provided their advice. Special thanks to Brad (vaporeon800) who provided 90% of that advice. I hope that someone will likewise find the information I provided useful.
    Quote Quote  
  10. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    It does seem to be a good option, provided you lower the black level when re-encoding to your viewing format.
    Quote Quote  
  11. Member Knightmessenger's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    Location
    United States
    Search Comp PM
    In the playback menu for Hi8 camcorders, mine have 3 settings I would check for.

    EDIT, TBC, DNR

    So edit is used when dubbing to vhs, it is supposed to make the copy not have as much noticeable generation loss. By testing direct captures from a Hi8 camcorder, I have concluded that it looks better for direct captures as well with edit turned On.

    TBC is time base corrector as you probably know. That probably makes sense to keep On.

    DNR is digital noise reduction, as someone mentioned that the TRV-608 is over sharpening, maybe it's because this setting is turned on. I usually leave this off because I figure if I really need to do noise reduction, it would be better accomplished on a computer than a basic camcorder setting.
    Quote Quote  
  12. Originally Posted by Knightmessenger View Post
    In the playback menu for Hi8 camcorders, mine have 3 settings I would check for.

    EDIT, TBC, DNR

    So edit is used when dubbing to vhs, it is supposed to make the copy not have as much noticeable generation loss. By testing direct captures from a Hi8 camcorder, I have concluded that it looks better for direct captures as well with edit turned On.
    Yes, the Hi8 cam I recently purchased does have these three settings. For me, I can't appreciate any difference with the EDIT mode ON so I'm leaving it OFF.

    TBC is time base corrector as you probably know. That probably makes sense to keep On.
    Yes, the difference this produces was convincingly demonstrated in the pics above

    DNR is digital noise reduction, as someone mentioned that the TRV-608 is over sharpening, maybe it's because this setting is turned on. I usually leave this off because I figure if I really need to do noise reduction, it would be better accomplished on a computer than a basic camcorder setting
    Likewise, agree with keep this setting OFF, although I don't feel that I will need to perform any post-processing noise reduction using my MiniDV as the capture device. As I have noted above, this cam seems to produce the cleanest images. I don't know why. It is the main reason why I have chosen it as my capture technique. I might note that I have also experimented with some of the most popular noise reduction filters for VirtualDub and have been very disappointed in the results. In my very limited experience, it is probably best to get the cleanest capture from the start rather than deal with it in post-processing.
    Quote Quote  
  13. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    I would turn off the Hi8 cam's TBC when capturing via the MiniDV. The latter seems to have more powerful TBC.
    Quote Quote  
  14. Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    I would turn off the Hi8 cam's TBC when capturing via the MiniDV. The latter seems to have more powerful TBC.
    You bring up a very good point. I forgot that the Mini-DV has line TBC. I just did a few experimental captures with Hi8 TBC ON then OFF. I can't tell alot of differnce except that using the Hi8 TBC seems to be reducing my color saturation somewhat. What are the usual consequences of using two line TBC devices in sequence?
    Quote Quote  
  15. Formerly 'vaporeon800' Brad's Avatar
    Join Date
    Apr 2001
    Location
    Vancouver, Canada
    Search PM
    The Hi8 TBC should make the MiniDV one ineffective. I dunno whether there would be any further interactions.
    Quote Quote  
  16. Capturing video can be so subjective, you can drive yourself mad picking which one seems best.
    Quote Quote  
  17. Originally Posted by VHSRules View Post
    Capturing video can be so subjective, you can drive yourself mad picking which one seems best.
    Ain't that the truth! And my OCD doesn't help either...


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Quote Quote  
  18. Originally Posted by VHSRules View Post
    Capturing video can be so subjective, you can drive yourself mad picking which one seems best.
    I completely agree. I found myself going mad as well until I sat my family down and had them pick which capture option they thought looked best. They knew nothing about the process, they just looked at the final output. Then the conclusion became simple. They unanimously chose the same approach. It completely removed the bias I had developed while I was working on this project. It made me realize that you can micro-dissect all you want, but all that really matters is how the final output looks to the audience for which it is intended.
    Quote Quote  
  19. Video Restorer lordsmurf's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
    Search Comp PM
    Originally Posted by VHSRules View Post
    Capturing video can be so subjective, you can drive yourself mad picking which one seems best.
    Not really.

    Most aspects are not subjective: chroma noise, improper color, tracking, etc. Only a tiny fraction is.

    The biggest issue is experience. Having more makes it all easier. Having worked with video since the analog-only days, the main issue for me is always hardware failures.
    Quote Quote  
  20. Originally Posted by lordsmurf View Post
    Originally Posted by VHSRules View Post
    Capturing video can be so subjective, you can drive yourself mad picking which one seems best.
    Not really.

    Most aspects are not subjective: chroma noise, improper color, tracking, etc. Only a tiny fraction is.

    The biggest issue is experience. Having more makes it all easier. Having worked with video since the analog-only days, the main issue for me is always hardware failures.
    I want to thank you for your VCR guide. I always consult it before looking on ebay for old VCRs. Thanks!
    Quote Quote  



Similar Threads