AV Sync with Elgato Game Capture/HDMI Cloner

[mdragoni]

I'm recording video over HDMI from my STB with two different devices. I'm attempting to find some kind of workable setup but I'm having a little trouble with lip-syncing. First I'm using Elgato's Game Capture HD and processing the video through HandBrake. I'm experiencing a minor (though noticeable to me) lip-sync issue. With my EyeTV over component my setup has been fine for years so I'm wondering if this is unique to HDMI capturing? I'm unable to find anyone who has a similar issue with the Game Capture, most av sync issues for elgato devices appear to deal with adding in a new audio stream through a mic. This has nothing to do with any game streaming mic setup, I'm not adding in an outside audio stream. I simply want the audio to match the video. The audio appears to me only slightly off and its consistent through the video. In fact, unlike a dubbing issue, all of my audio appears to match with whoever is speaking but their lips appear slightly off.
Similarly, I record the same content with the HDMI Cloner Box, processed through HandBrake and then cut (no re-encoding) with Avidemux. I'm seeing similar results here. Though perhaps a little better.
It's also possible that I'm crazy and that I'm imagining this millisecond delay. So I've attached several short clips for verification. For each I've provided a 'raw' version of the file cut down with quicktime and a processed version. Honestly, I'd love to hear that this is in my head so feel free to just say that I'm nuts. Either way, I appreciate the advice.

Update!:Attached files locally to thread.

[badyu17]

Mediainfo reported that your Game Capture Raw MOV file has variable frame rate mode (29.916) which differs from the original fps (30000/1001) so maybe that was the reason you noticed small desync in your file. Maybe you shouldn't use quicktime next time with your elgato recording. I used mkvtoolnix-gui to remux the file and manually set fps/default duration to 30000/1001. After remuxing your mov to mkv I think the sync is now better?

[jagabo]

If your clips have a constant audio offset you can remux using the container's audio delay/advance feature. The first clip looks like it needs about a 200 ms advance in the audio. You get that by specifying a -200 delay when you remux.

[mdragoni]

If your clips have a constant audio offset you can remux using the container's audio delay/advance feature. The first clip looks like it needs about a 200 ms advance in the audio. You get that by specifying a -200 delay when you remux.

Thanks everyone for the responses and the time you've already put in. This is a really great community. The delay seems promising, its good to know other people are seeing this minor audio issue. I ran the clip through -200 delay on remux. Thoughts?

http://dropproxy.com/f/D45

[jagabo]

A lot of players let you skew the audio manually. For example, VLC lets you skew the audio with the j and k keys (50 ms per key press) and it displays the total skew. You can use that to get a more accurate value for your remux.

[badyu17]

I think it's more like -128ms but that's just me. Also you should consider removing all duplicate frames because original source material was produced in 23.976 and Elgato recorded 29.970 signal from STB. You can turn on detelecine option in Handbrake and specify fps to 23.976 and constant in video options.

[mdragoni]

I think it's more like -128ms but that's just me. Also you should consider removing all duplicate frames because original source material was produced in 23.976 and Elgato recorded 29.970 signal from STB. You can turn on detelecine option in Handbrake and specify fps to 23.976 and constant in video options.

Hi. Thanks for the response. So I ran it through Handbrake based on your suggested settings (23.976, constant, -128). I think I did the detelecine part right, I kept it on default. I thought I'd share the results and see what everyone thinks.

http://dropproxy.com/f/D46

[jagabo]

The new file is 23.976 fps but the wrong frames were discarded. It still has duplicates. Instead of every 5th frame being a duplicate, now every 4th frame is a duplicate.

[mdragoni]

Ok. Thanks for the tip. Any idea how I go about choosing the 5th frame? Sorry I'm a complete novice to detelecine.

[jagabo]

Sorry. I don't really use Handbrake so I can't advise you there. I would use AviSynth's TDecimate(). But AviSynth has a big learning curve. I wouldn't recommend it unless you plan to get seriously into video filtering. Oh, and it only runs on Windows.

[badyu17]

Yeah, jagabo is right, you would do this easy with Avisynth but it's not something you can install and master in a few minutes.

Strange thing is, I detelecined your mov file last night using Handbrake and the result was much better than with your last file. My Handbrake was older version though. I checked the frames and it had only one duplicate in the first few frames (my file). You file is much worse because it decimated wrong frames.

[mdragoni]

Hmm. I'm 0.10.5. Perhaps that's the issue? I've attached my handbrake log for reference from the first time I attempted the detelecine with the original raw 1080p file. Maybe that offers some clues. The Game Capture is only capable of outputting at 1080/30p (converting a 1080/60p down) it can though record at 720p/60. Perhaps If I tried re-recording and then performing the detelecine, mms delay and fps change it might run smoother?
Also, not to change the subject because I'd much prefer to get the Game Capture working as the workflow is much cleaner but has anyone checked out the HDMI Cloner original for similar issues? Those seem naturally better but perhaps it's my imagination? Everyone in my personal life who I force to watch these clips claim to not notice any issues with them, I think to appease the madman...

[badyu17]

I think my version is 0.9.9, not sure. The thing is, you use Mac and who can tell if there's not some difference in detelecine option in Mac version of the Handbrake. Like jagabo said I also use Avisynth and other tools directly and manually setting options I like. For me it's much better than some GUI with automatic one button encodes.

I didn't check Cloner files because for some reason I could only download first file, for other it wants to open player inside the browser and can't save it. You can attach your files here directly. No need for some external hoster.

[mdragoni]

I actually have a PC! Its fairly high-end so I'll run it through handbrake, .9.9 on my trusty gaming rig and see what I get. I'll update soon.

Let me see about attaching the other files.

So I ran Handbrake on my PC, I produced one file with the -128ms and the other kept as is. Attached are my results.

[badyu17]

Still the same, you can notice the jerkiness while it plays in the player and going frame by frame. It still decimates wrong frames. As for the sound and lip sync, to be honest I can't tell any difference. Both are ok.

[mdragoni]

With the lip-sync is there any method for calculating how much of a delay I need other than simply jumping back and forth with VLC?

Update:
Also, how much of lip-sync is audio delay vs framerate tampering. Such as the suggestion to do 30000/100?

[mdragoni]

A follow-up to my previous post, I was thinking that maybe the HDMI splitter was somehow delaying the audio for the capture device by a few seconds. I just now figured out how to properly use the HDMI Cloner Box so I've re-recorded a show and provided a clip below. I was wondering if any VideoHelpers have an opinion on specifically the a/v sync issue.