Cannopus ADVC110 - best settings for analogue Viewcam cap in Vegas?

[japniz]

More than a decade ago, I used a variety of graphics and capture cards, and software to cap my analogue Sharp Viewcam (VL-E31) 8mm tapes for editing for DVD viewing. The learning curve was huge then and now, having used Vegas Studio (v10) and DV tape cams since, I am wondering if the original captures (now long deleted as hard drives were smaller and more expensive) were of the best quality possible.

To that end, after quite a bit of research, I have a Canopus ADVC110 with a view to redoing them while the tape and very old cam are still usable.

Key question, of course, is the best setting to use for the box, which converts the analogue into a DV capture which Vegas shows as:
720x576x24 at 25fps (I'm in the UK so use PAL)
though I don't know what the 'x24' represents - another post said it was purely something used by Vegas and had no other relevance?
32 Hz, 16bit stereo (even though the analogue signal is not stereo but I can convert this in Vegas by duplicating the single channel)

Beyond checking the 'analog in' light is on, the tiny trip switches on the bottom of the box are its only settings. For info, mine are:
1 format: PAL - on
2 NTSC set up level: 0 IRE - off (as am using PAL)
3 audio: unlocked (understand this makes no difference)
4 audio mode: 48khz 16bit (as best option)
5 power on input: analogue - off
6 input select: auto (IMS)

In Vegas, the capture setting is 'DV' and on the Capture window Preferences' Capture tab,
Custom Frame Rate is set as: 25.000(PAL)
master stream: set to None (the other drop down options are audio and video)

I'd be looking to archive the captures for future re-diting so am looking to produce the best quality possible given the old analogue 8mm tape.

I understand from other posts that, although other capture devices and software may offer filters to improve the capture as it happens, they do not improve things much.

If anyone has any suggestions on improving - or comments on - this set up, I'd be very grateful to hear them.

[smrpix]

Set up your Vegas project to match your Canopus output.

Keep your switch #4 set to 48khz 16 bit, change your Vegas project from 32khz 16 bit (an unusual pairing) to 48khz 16 bit. You're good to go. (Except for the flood of zealous comments coming to tell you how horrible DV is.)

[JVRaines]

OMG, DV is horrible! That must be why I still use it for legacy video conversion.

Make sure your DIP switch #3 (Audio Mode) is in the proper OFF position for 48/16 audio. The default and manual-recommended position for switch #4 (Locked Audio Mode) is OFF for locked audio. My ADVC110 has always run in locked mode and I've never had synchronization problems.

"x24" means 24-bit color depth, i.e. 8 bits for red, 8 bits for blue and 8 bits for green. The intensity of each of these primaries is represented by a value from 0 to 255, which is the range of an 8-bit number.

[japniz]

Many thanks smrpix and JVRaines. Good to get your feedback and your tweaks.

If no other poster has any further suggestions, I'll go with those settings.

JVRaines: Thanks for the colour bit explanation for that extra number - clearly the other poster was wrong. That said, my HD caps done with Vegas from a Sony HDV cam show they are only 'x12' - I'd have thought that a full HD capture would include a higher bit depth. (The Vegas info for these caps is: 1440x1080x12 25.000 fps interlaced.) I know it's not strictly on topic, but do you know why the DV cap from an analogue tape should have a higher bit depth than a HD capture?

SMRPix: With this box, there can only a DV capture. Briefly, would there be a better capture format with another type of box?

Thanks again, all.

[pippas]

With this box, there can only a DV capture. Briefly, would there be a better capture format with another type of box?

Yes, the ADVC110 only converts to DV. The second part of your question, sadly, falls into the 'light blue touch paper and retire' category... as already alluded to by smrpix.

Yes, there are alternative ways of capturing VHS video - nearly all of which involve the use of older, often difficult to find equipment, a lot of friggin' about and huge file sizes..... And, from what I've seen, for pretty little improvement over the quality of DV capture.

But, you will get very polarised responses to that comment on this board. Converting to DV is a bit like Marmite... I happen to like Marmite..
(it's OK, the OP is from the UK -- he will understand what I mean)

[jagabo]

my HD caps done with Vegas from a Sony HDV cam show they are only 'x12' - I'd have thought that a full HD capture would include a higher bit depth.

It's actually the same bit depth: 8 bits of Y, 8 bits of U, and 8 bits of V. When a program calls it 12 bits it's because the Y (greyscale) channel is at full resolution, but the U and V (color) channels are half (each dimension) resolution. On average you have 12 bits per pixel, hence the "12" in the nomenclature. So a 1920x1080 video with YV12 (aka YUV 4:2:0) chroma subsampling has a 1920x1080 Y channel and 960x540 U and V channels. The situation is the same with PAL DV. It has a 720x576 Y channel and 360x288 U and V channels. NTSC DV is a little different but also 12 bits per pixel on average: a 720x480 Y channel and 180x480 U and V channels (called YUV 4:1:1).

[japniz]

Many thanks, guys:

jagabo: I'm sure your answer is a flawless explanation, I'm just not high spec enough to grasp it. I'll take it, though, that there is no reduction in colour depth quality between the two captures, in that case.

pippas: does 8mm Viewcam tape count as 'VHS'? Certainly, from reading a lot of posts, the difference of approach to capturing - and opinion on those approaches - is pretty big, as you say, hence going for the Canopus box, of which the majority were complimentary. If you say, from your own experience, if all the bells, whistles and specialist kit don't add up to much, then I feel I've made the right decision given my limited time, money and - frankly - knowledge. Marmite soluiton it may be, but I think it's going to be my best bet unless anyone has any other suggestions?

Thanks, both.

[japniz]

One final point, guys, on re-checking my box settings and making the suggested changes, the numbered points are embossed in the plastic so are hard to read without good light, and I now see my number one switch actually says:
'digital in reference sync'
for which:
off = stream sync
on = fixed

What should my choice be for that one?

Many thanks.

[JVRaines]

I agree, those markings are really hard to read! You don't have to worry about Switch #1 when you're convering analog to digital.

[japniz]

So either position is fine, then.

[JVRaines]

Yes. "Digital-in" is not what you're doing. You're doing "analog-in."

[jagabo]

I feel I've made the right decision given my limited time, money

You might think that a $200 ADVC 110 gives better quality than a $40 raw YUV 4:2:2 capture device. But that is not true. The latter can be harder to get working but a decent one can deliver slightly better quality than DV capture devices. If you already have an ADVC 110 you might as well use it. Otherwise I would recommend a raw YUV 4:2:2 capture device.

[pippas]

I would recommend a raw YUV 4:2:2 capture device.

Do you know of a currently available device you would recommend to do that with, on a modern Windows 7 machine?...

Many posts recommending 'raw' capture often seem to refer to using long gone items, which are not easy to find...especially here in the UK ... and some may not work on newer machines...

I think some of the Blackmagic external units may be capable, but sadly they are not priced at around $40!!

[jagabo]

I haven't used them personally but the Ezcap.tv devices are supposed to be good:

http://www.amazon.com/EZCAP-TV-EzGrabber-Capture-Converter-Windows/dp/B003YGJLWU/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/EZCAP-TV-116-EzGAMER-composite-Definition-included/dp/B007C88ISY/

Stay away from the cheaper counterfeit "easycap", "EZ CAP", etc. devices.

Hauppauge still makes such capture devices but it's hard to tell which models support raw YUY 4:2:2 (as opposed to hardware MPEG 2 or AVC compression). I saw a few threads within the last month that detailed which Hauppauge devices to get.

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376321-Capture-solutions-for-Win-7-x64
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/376375-Capture-card-for-VHS-and-coaxial-(TV)-advice-for-VHS

You may need to use alternate (non-Hauppauge) capture software to get uncompressed or losslessly compressed output. VirtualDub, DScaler, etc.

The major disadvantage of this is the larger file sizes. DV runs about 13 GB/hr. Losslessly compressed YUY2 about 3x that. It's often impractical to use on a laptop because of the higher bandwidth required of the hard drive and the lack of a secondary drive to capture to.

[pippas]

I haven't used them personally but the Ezcap.tv devices are supposed to be good:

http://www.amazon.com/EZCAP-TV-EzGrabber-Capture-Converter-Windows/dp/B003YGJLWU/
http://www.amazon.co.uk/EZCAP-TV-116-EzGAMER-composite-Definition-included/dp/B007C88ISY/

Stay away from the cheaper counterfeit "easycap", "EZ CAP", etc. devices.

Hauppauge still makes such capture devices but it's hard to tell which models support raw YUY 4:2:2 (as opposed to hardware MPEG 2 or AVC compression). I saw a few threads within the last month that detailed which Hauppauge devices to get.

In the EZCAP description from that UK Amazon link it says "Supports both PAL and NTSC. PAL: 720 x 576 @ 25fps. NTSC: 720 x 480 @ 30fps. Captures in real time MPEG2 format. Video input: RCA composite, S-Video. Audio input: Stereo audio (RCA)"

So no mention of 'raw' capture - only MPEG2.... Maybe time to check out the Hauppauge devices for YUY 4:2:2 options?
As you mentioned, I too have had a hard time trying to work out which of the various Hauppage devices available over the years is right for this task.

[jagabo]

I'm pretty sure all the EZCAP devices can capture raw video. Like with Hauppauge you may need to use alternate capture software.

[Brad]

So no mention of 'raw' capture - only MPEG2

Most people just want to have a compressed file they can burn on a disc/play on their TV, so for the past several years it's been rare for the advertising to mention anything about uncompressed/AVI/etc. Sometimes you can figure out what hardware a device is using by perusing the driver's INF file and find out what it's capable of.

StarTech even incorrectly claimed to include hardware encoding despite not having a chip.

[pippas]

I've only had a quick 'google' but some of the problems associated with uncompressed capture and EZCAP (dropped frames, loss of audio sync, HUGE files etc, etc, ) suggest that I'm probably fine sticking with my Canopus DV converter.
I do know that DV has some artifacts (thanks to the advice I've received here on the forum) but for my purposes, it seems to work pretty well.. (Virtually no dropped frames, perfect audio sync).....I can put up with a few DV digital artifacts ......
I think I'll leave uncompressed capture to the real experts.....

[ajk]

If you want an uncompressed capture, you can't expect anything but huge files

[johnmeyer]

Stick with DV and your ADVC110. You are capturing VHS tape, which is about as far from "broadcast quality" as video can be and still be usable. You will not be able to actually see any quality improvements with all the other capture hardware discussed here (and elsewhere). And, having seen people chasing the end of that elusive quality rainbow, only to find no pot of gold, I can tell you that all of them found out how difficult it is to set up and maintain a good capture with some of these other setups, and how large, slow, and clunky some of these other formats are when put on your NLE's editing timeline.

By contrast to those systems, DV is probably the best video standard for timeline performance, and with the right editor, can easily be cut and then "smart rendered," thus avoiding any generational loss.

For VHS capture and editing (and for 8mm, which is essentially the same thing), I 100% endorse using the setup you already have, with the settings already recommended. Don't even think about anything else because you won't get results that are visibly any better.