Which VCR would you recommend to a newbie?

[jensvde]

Hi all

This is my first post here.

I'm looking for some advice for a VCR. I want to transfer a lot of VHS & S-VHS tapes to my computer. I've already read the list of the models recommended, but the problem is, almost none of them can be bought in Belgium. The ones I do find are from Germany but they're too expensive (with shipping included a Panasonic NV-FS 200 would cost me € 359, about $ 478).

I have already bought a Phillips VR1100 last year but it broke down after just 3 months. Picture quality was bad and sometimes a tape wouldn't even want to play. And the TBC function made the image quality even worse. The quality of the video on a € 5 VCR I bought on the flea market to rewind tapes was better than on the VR1100.

So I'm looking for a non Phillips VCR with TBC and S-Video that is affordable and not super rare. Any advice?

Thanks in advance

Jens

[orsetto]

Since you've been reading previous threads on this topic, you must have seen remarks to the effect anyone who's just getting around to looking for one of these specialty VCRs today, in late-2015-almost-2016, is unfortunately far too late to find any "deals".

Recorders with TBC/DNR were always rare, because they were ridiculously overpriced when new and most people, even the wealthy, could not justify the marginal improvements over the same exact VCR without TBC/DNR selling at half the price. Ironically, the TBC/DNR feature was never all that compelling back in the days when VHS was the sole home video format- it only became interesting to people after it was discovered digital encoders sometimes work better if VHS is passed thru them. This would have been the early 2000s, by which time most of these VCRs had been discontinued. A feeding frenzy ensued, with hobbyists on this and other A/V forums hyping the JVC and Panasonic TBC/DNR models relentlessly. Prices for second-hand examples became astronomical: those who bought them had large collections of tapes to digitize, and often wore the VCR out before reselling it on eBay. The next buyer wore it down further, then the next buyer, then the next, etc, etc.

Today, almost all the TBC/DNR models have been used to death. Finding one in really good functional condition at a reasonable price is harder than finding a unicorn. In North America, mind you, where these VCRs were most plentiful: in Europe the situation is even more dire, in Belgium, impossible. The supply is most concentrated in UK and Germany, outside those two countries you are simply not going to find anything unless you are extremely lucky. If you do find one, expect to pay a high price, plus import/shipping fees. It is a risky purchase, involving a significant amount of money, for not that much advantage.

My personal recommendation, today, is to pretend you never heard of TBC/DNR vcrs. Your chance of finding a normal, typical, standard VHS or SVHS model in excellent condition is much MUCH greater. The TBC/DNR models were temperamental, most now need servicing to perform up to their reputations, and finding a competent VCR technician to align them can be even more difficult than finding the VCRs. Accept the probability that you waited too long, and missed your chance at a fancy VCR. That era has passed: if you didn't buy one by 2008, you lost out. Settle for an ordinary VCR: they're cheaper, more reliable, usually in better condition, and not nearly as disappointing (you would quickly discover the TBC/DNR feature works well with only half your tapes, while making the remaining half look worse: it isn't consistent, and when switched off the fancy VCR often has worse playback than a cheap VCR).

[hech54]

There is a great German seller on Ebay.....maybe even two of them.
I love my VR-1100....and if you buy a higher end JVC you are getting the exact same VCR.
There are several Philips models that are exact clones of JVCs.....the 1100 is one of them.

Panasonic chassis
http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Kopf-S-VHS-Recorder-Panasonic-NV-SV121EG-K-mit-FB-BDA-OVP-12...4AAOSwhkRWcXVU

JVC chassis
http://www.ebay.com/itm/JVC-HR-S7711-S-VHS-ET-Videorecorder-OVP-NEU-unbenutzt-2-Jahre-...EAAOSw6dNWSNej


Philips VR-1200
http://www.ebay.com/itm/7-Kopf-S-VHS-Recorder-Philips-VR1200-02-mit-FB-BDA-OVP-12-Mona...8AAOSwhkRWcXZW
I killed one of these. Very dainty loading mechanism. NOT recommended Just showing the similarities.
The internals may be different, and the features(TCB Hi-Fi etc etc) of course.

Thomas has been on Ebay for a long time and has a great reputation.

[jensvde]

Thanks for all the answers.

However, I just found a seller that is selling a Panasonic AG7750. It looks in good condition and the seller claims it is working perfectly. I don't know if you know this model, but is it worth it? It looks very professional and it has an TBC. His asking price is ok for me, and I can make a trip to pick it up and test it.

However, I've read on the internet that this VCR's build-in TBC doesn't do much to improve picture quality.

That's another question I have. How can you further improve the quality? I mean things like bringing colors back to life and making blurry images sharper. I know there's some high-end stuff for sale but that's not in my budget. Are there any budget-friendly devices you would recommend? And if possible not that rare? Of course they won't improve it as much the high-end devices would, but I have some tapes where any improvement at all would be great.

Sorry for all the questions and thanks again for taking the time to answer them.

Jens

[hech54]

Thanks for all the answers.

However, I just found a seller that is selling a Panasonic AG7750. It looks in good condition and the seller claims it is working perfectly. I don't know if you know this model, but is it worth it? It looks very professional and it has an TBC. His asking price is ok for me, and I can make a trip to pick it up and test it.

However, I've read on the internet that this VCR's build-in TBC doesn't do much to improve picture quality.

That's another question I have. How can you further improve the quality? I mean things like bringing colors back to life and making blurry images sharper. I know there's some high-end stuff for sale but that's not in my budget. Are there any budget-friendly devices you would recommend? And if possible not that rare? Of course they won't improve it as much the high-end devices would, but I have some tapes where any improvement at all would be great.

Sorry for all the questions and thanks again for taking the time to answer them.

Jens

Just remember that sometimes the picture quality is BETTER with the TBC OFF.
TBC is not a cure-all or a MUST HAVE(I say that because someone eventually will come along and claim everyone needs one).


Fixing blurry out of focus video?....not a chance.

Those big pro decks like the 7750 always LOOK tempting, but I would not buy one unless it came from a professional repair shop/person and they offered some sort of warranty. Those big decks also have built-in meters/counters that calculate the total amount of hours they have been used. And they are expensive to fix.

[jensvde]

Thanks for the reply.

With blurry I actually meant that colors mix and the image is not clear (lots of lines etc). I didn't meant that someone did a bad camera job. Just that the colors mix with each other that the image looks blurry. That's probably not the correct word for it, sorry for my bad English.

The guy that is selling these has tons of other VCR's, betamax, video 2000, U-Matic he even has a Betacam player for sale. So I think he knows what he is selling. I'll ask for a warranty. Also, do you have any advice when I'm testing the device out? He also claims it has a low amount of used hours.

The problem is, this is one of the very few S-VHS players I can find on the internet for sale here in my country. So its either this one or a super expensive one from e-bay that costs almost 3 times the price of this machine. Besides that, it looks very cool to me

[orsetto]

The problem is, this (AG7750) is one of the very few S-VHS players I can find on the internet for sale here in my country. So its either this one or a super expensive one from e-bay that costs almost 3 times the price of this machine. Besides that, it looks very cool to me

Unfortunately, you have no option other than to pay the enormous sums asked for EXACTLY the kind of VCR that will help with your color issues. There is NO workaround, no "cheaper VCR", no accessory box that will do this for you. The special color noise reduction filters you need were EXCLUSIVELY built in to Panasonics like NV-SF200, and several JVC models with "DigiPure" features.

It is a common hope of many who post here that the big fat heavy clunky "professional" VCRs like Panasonic AG7750 might be a lesser known, less expensive alternative to something like an NV-SF200 or JVC 7700. They are not: that is the reason they sell for much lower prices. The big heavy "pro" VCRs were optimized for a studio environment, where they would be used with tapes recorded on similar models. Consumer VCRs employ a different head specification: tapes made on them often play with MORE noise when used in a big "pro" VCR. Also, the big "pro" VCRs have TBC, but it is typically an optional feature located on an accessory circuit board that goes missing years later when the unit changes hands. Finally, it is important to note it isn't actually the "TBC" that performs the color repairs, but the "DNR" (digital noise reduction) feature that comes bundled with it in semi-pro and high-end-consumer VCRs. This specific type of DNR was rarely (if ever) offered on the huge "pro" VCRs, because they didn't really need it (the TBC covered most studio issues, and color was handled by very expensive consoles downstream).

To get rid of the color smearing and noise found in consumer VHS, you need the TBC+DNR system offered only with a couple semi-pro Panasonic and several high-end-consumer JVC vcrs. Note the TBC itself is usually counterproductive: it frequently creates more problems than it solves and interacts negatively with the color noise reduction. The two features cannot be separated in the the JVC models, but are independent in certain Panasonics like the NV-SF200 (which is why it is so sought after). Generally one has to weigh the consequences of turning on the TBC+DNR: is the clarification of colors worth the distortion and jitter that comes along for the ride? The interaction is highly dependent on each individual tape. So don't assume any TBC/DNR vcr will be a magic bullet that makes all your tapes look better: the effect is extremely variable. This unpredictability might be worth gambling 350 euros on, but with current prices approaching double that amount (for a USED vcr), one needs to honestly consider whether the tapes in their collection really justify such an expense. If yes, I'd suggest buying from a reputable specialty eBay vendor like the one linked by hech54 above.

[jensvde]

Thanks for the answer. I'm going to try to buy a Phillips VR1100 (again), most of the people say its a good vcr. Those JVC's an Panasonics are just too expensive for me.

However, I just found this video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ

I think this is just amazing what this device can do. He's doing it with a Sony RDR-HXD870. Should you think I should get one of these, with a VR1100? Should that be good equipment to transfer tapes? These sony recorders are not super rare, I've found one on eBay for cheap because it has a broken dvd lens.

[hech54]

Thanks for the answer. I'm going to try to buy a Phillips VR1100 (again), most of the people say its a good vcr. Those JVC's an Panasonics are just too expensive for me.

However, I just found this video on YouTube: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tMA5aH_olAQ

I think this is just amazing what this device can do. He's doing it with a Sony RDR-HXD870. Should you think I should get one of these, with a VR1100? Should that be good equipment to transfer tapes? These sony recorders are not super rare, I've found one on eBay for cheap because it has a broken dvd lens.

Sony RDR-HXD870:
If you cannot remove the hard drive and get the recordings off of it via your computer.....what good is one with a broken burner?

TBC:
As we already said....TBC do not perform miracles AND it's possible to get better results with it turned OFF. I turn mine off on my VR-1100 quite often.

VR-1100:
I'd buy another if the price was right....but Panasonic machines are also quite nice. I have an inexpensive Panasonic and even though it is not an S-VHS machine, it is VERY nice picture via SCART.

[jensvde]

Thanks for the answer. I just want to use it as pass-trough, I will be recording it using a capture device on my pc. So no need for a working dvd lens or build-in harddrive. That's why I could buy one cheap. I don't need the build-in harddrive or dvd playback, I will just be using like this: VCR => S-VIDEO IN => S-VIDEO OUT => PC

I know and agree that TBC cannot do miracles, but the improvements in the video on YouTube were enormous in my eyes. At some point, without the TBC the tape would not even play and with TBC enabled it would. I have some tapes around that are in that condition like shown the video, an improvement like shown in the video would be the thing I'm looking for.

One thing that concerns me is that in the specifications and in the manual there is nowhere a topic about TBC or Time Base Corrector. It's not written on the device, and in serval specification listings I've read it isn't written in either. But it seems to do a good job.

EDIT: Those external TBC's (like the CTB-100) are they any good? They're not super rare and there's an E-bay auction in the UK selling one.

[orsetto]

You're talking apples and oranges, jensvide. The functionality provided by using a dvd recorder as passthru is not the same as the TBC/DNR circuit built in to a handful of JVC and Panasonic vcrs (and apparently their Philips clones, which I had never heard about until this thread).

The circuits in the VCR work directly off the tape heads to pre-process the signal before it reaches the output connections. Some specific tape issues like color noise, color smearing, and severe luma clipping distortion can only be corrected effectively by these semi-rare vcrs via their internal DNR processors.

The circuits (pseudo-TBC-frame-sync) in dvd recorders employed for pass-thru to a PC act on a different area of the video signal, external to the VCR signal path. It does nothing for color, but acts more like a stabilizer: reducing some types of jitter, reducing some types of distortion (primarily flagging and washboarding, as shown in that youTube clip), and most importantly correcting for the common "dropped frame" issue that occurs with PC capture devices (dropped frames are largely invisible to the eye, but can cause later problems like audio lipsync drift). Note the geometric correction feature is not exclusive to high-end units like the Sony 870: most recent models, even the bargain-basement Funai/Toshibas, will do this for you. The go-to recommendation for those with severely distorted tapes is to use an old Panasonic ES10 dvd recorder as passthru: it has the absolute strongest correction circuit ever made for VHS (not even megabuck pro gear can compare in effectiveness). But an ES10 isn't necessary unless your tapes are truly godawful: most people get by fine with any decent random dvd recorder.

Dedicated external TBCs like the CBT-100 behave somewhat like a dvd recorder passthru to fix dropped frames, minus the distortion correction but with added ability to clear analog and digital copy protection interference. In recent years, the mfr quality control on these external TBCs has gotten pretty dismal, to the point most of us have switched to using dvd recorders as pass-thru "TBCs" (the drop frame correction is more reliable, with fewer added visible artifacts). We connect separate, independent filter boxes like The Grex if/when we encounter protection issues on some tapes (otherwise, the signal is cleaner if passed only thru a dvd recorder). I would avoid boxes like the CBT-100 in favor of a dvd recorder passthru (plus separate macrovision filter, if needed): more economical, better PQ and more reliable.

[jensvde]

Thanks for the reply!

I've found 2 of these ES10 units in Belgium and for a fair price. I'm waiting for the sellers to respond to my emails.

But does this model have revisions or something? Because I've found one silver one and one black one. Are they the same? Because for the black one the asking price is half of the silver model.

I won't be copying commercial tapes so I don't think I going to have problems with Macrovision or something like that.

So, my final setup will be a Phillips VR1100 with the Panasonic ES10. Thank you all for all the great advice. I now know what I should buy.

[Brad]

In the US it's only silver (AFAIK) but in some European countries there were both silver and black versions of the PAL+NTSC unit. They should be the same internally. If you speak German or use Google Translate, the Gleitz-Forum may be able to confirm.

[hech54]

I paid €35 for my VR-1100. It was listed on Ebay as "Philips VCR - NTSC playback - rarely used" and one picture.
I got lucky on that one.