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  1. Member PuzZLeR's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    No there is a definite difference in image size .... I just tried it now and if I flip to DVD .. the image becomes wider as it 'zooms' in to avoid black bars on horizontal .. losing portion of image off the edge.
    I checked again on forum and had a bundle of people confirm widescreen Blu-ray is not the same aspect ratio as 16:9 DVD.
    However .. I'm now having a scan through to see if the resizing crops off anything of importance .......... if its doesn't then I will resize in Vegas.

    I'll also take some mediainfo details later in day and post them
    Are you talking about a preview mode in Vegas that you see this distortion? I don't use Vegas but feel the hunch that the PAR is not taken into consideration in preview mode, just like other software, which may look distorted. PAR is done at the encoder/container level.

    Again, you are confusing PAR with DAR. Read my last post.

    As well, did you even at least try smrpix'es advice?
    I hate VHS. I always did.
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  2. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Methinks the OP requires Vegas (or thinks he does) to add the musak etc. before compiling.

    But not using either Vegas or DVDA, I will follow smrpix's lead and shut up
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  3. Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    I'll say this a 3rd time and then shut up. You don't even have to return to Vegas. The HD assets you originally exported to DVD Architect can be properly converted to DVD-compliant assets right there.
    No they can't in this case ... 2Hr 20 won't fit on a DVD unless I seriously comprise quality - so I have to go back to project and split files.
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  4. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Methinks the OP requires Vegas (or thinks he does) to add the musak etc. before compiling.

    But not using either Vegas or DVDA, I will follow smrpix's lead and shut up
    Absolutely the stills work is done in PSG and that output mpeg is used as one my input media files into Vegas ... along with several others, I need to sync music & commendatory to video track ... I absolutely need to use Vegas for this.
    I'm not saying there are not other NLE's that couldn't do this, but this is one I own.
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  5. You tend to answer selectively and not telling details at all, just general description what you did, but if you want to solve this, or get confirmation, you need to say actual details and steps what you did, not just one sentence without any numbers in it, numbers are needed!

    You can replace your title in DVD Architect project and create DVD. Thing is, we do not know what you feed DVDArchicet with. You do not want to re-encode un-necesarily again.

    Can you just print this, it takes you a minute:
    -Intermediate from that PSG, resolution, frame rate, field order, format, bitrate (we know it is mpeg2 and 60000kbps)
    -Vegas project properties (resolution, frame rate, aspect ratio, field order)
    -snapshot of your preview window (because your description of what you did in Vegas could be misleading), possibly say what effect you applied
    -what did you export from Vegas for DVD Architect to make Blu-Ray (resolution, format, field order, frame rate, bitrate)
    Last edited by _Al_; 11th Dec 2015 at 11:28.
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  6. Originally Posted by PuzZLeR View Post
    Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    No there is a definite difference in image size .... I just tried it now and if I flip to DVD .. the image becomes wider as it 'zooms' in to avoid black bars on horizontal .. losing portion of image off the edge.
    I checked again on forum and had a bundle of people confirm widescreen Blu-ray is not the same aspect ratio as 16:9 DVD.
    However .. I'm now having a scan through to see if the resizing crops off anything of importance .......... if its doesn't then I will resize in Vegas.

    I'll also take some mediainfo details later in day and post them
    Are you talking about a preview mode in Vegas that you see this distortion? I don't use Vegas but feel the hunch that the PAR is not taken into consideration in preview mode, just like other software, which may look distorted. PAR is done at the encoder/container level.

    Again, you are confusing PAR with DAR. Read my last post.

    As well, did you even at least try smrpix'es advice?
    It is the prview mode that 'jumps wider' .. it could be DAR vs PAR

    As to advice from smrpix- it doesn't work for me due to file size, I will have to come back into Vegas and split into 2 projects.
    However on a 'practical point' it does seem to work .......... without creating a disc I can't compare the.



    The Vegas forum guys are really adamant that you can't do things this way - they insist aspect ratio is different :

    "PAL Widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios. Assuming you set your project for PAL HD you will get black bars on the PAL Widescreen rendering unless you stretch it at render time or crop it at editing time.

    I would render to Blu-ray. Then create a PAL Widescreen project and drop the Blu-ray render into that and crop it to PAL Widescreen aspect before rendering to PAL Widescreen. Just open Pan/Crop and right-click the frame and select Match Output Aspect before you render.
    "HD is 16:9 at 1920 x 1080 PAR 1.0. If you divide 1080 by 9 and multiple that result (120) by 16 you get 1920 because 1920 x 1080 is 16:9. PAL widescreen is 720 x 576 PAR 1.4567. A Pixel Aspect Ratio (PAR) of 1.4567 means that PAL Widescreen is not using square pixels like HD does. In order to calculate the "real" dimensions in square pixels you must multiple the width by the PAR. if you multiply 720 x 1.4567 you get 1,048.824 but since you can't have a fractional pixel we around up to 1049. That means that PAL Widescreen is actually 1049 x 576. if you divide 576 by 9 and then multiple the result (64) by16 you get 1024. Since 1024 does not equal 1049 PAL Widescreen is not 16:9! So your PAL Widescreen is going to be wider than your HD Widescreen. Another way to check is to divide the width by the height. 1920 / 1080 = 1.78:1 and 1049 / 576 = 1.82:1 so again, PAL Widescreen has a wider ratio than HD. "



    In any event I have to recreate ... but at least I won't need to go back to re-creating media - which was the point of this original Q.
    I can go to the individual sub-projects .. split into 2 groups and this time at DVDA take the Bluray files in change the menu structure ... but use DVDA to do the conversion (as per smrpix suggestion) and create DVD's
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  7. [QUOTE=_Al_;2423120]You tend to answer selectively and not telling details at all, just general description what you did, but if you want to solve this, or get confirmation, you need to say actual details and steps what you did, not just one sentence without any numbers in it, numbers are needed! /QUOTE]

    AL .. I'm sorry you think I'm answering selectively .. I'm answering to best of my abilities ..

    I posted a more detailed response in #36 .... this seems to give me a way forward, I'll try and come back with the details you ask above tomorrow - I have top leave now.
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  8. that post #36 is mambo jumbo, one cannot know what it is based on

    do me a favor and provide those all details , make me happy , #35 post, they are really needed, that forum might have info we don't

    you might have set resolution for your Vegas project as your intermediate clip, or whatever else , not 16:9 , or you interpret clip with a aspect ratio to fit something, I'm not sure you understand that those NUMBERS and data are important and might completely change whatever you do or how can might think about workflow, ... , for sure, if you have project 16:9, you do not need to change aspect ratio or cropping, any effect, it is valid for any export, BD, DVD, heck I cannot even imagine why it would be different anyway, trust me, those providing data would sort it right away.
    Last edited by _Al_; 11th Dec 2015 at 12:01.
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  9. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Rick,

    Grab yourself a 16:9 PAL dvd and tell me what it says on the back of the box regards Aspect Ratio. My guess it will say 1:1.78

    More than that. I have been reading this forum for years and every relevant topic I read tells me that PAL dvd resizes to 1024*576 not 1048*576. Yet I said all along that when you start trying to comprehend all these numbers, and with the greatest of respect, you are going get tied up in knots.

    So once again, for your own (and my) sanity, keep it simple. If you must use Vegas then just import dvd-friendly assets. The image program should compensate correctly for the different frame size and there should be no loss of detail. Of course, and I try to recall what you wrote elsewhere, if you did any resizing of images to make them Blu Ray friendly and not let the program to the work there could be issues.
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  10. Originally Posted by _Al_ View Post
    You tend to answer selectively and not telling details at all, just general description what you did, but if you want to solve this, or get confirmation, you need to say actual details and steps what you did, not just one sentence without any numbers in it, numbers are needed!

    You can replace your title in DVD Architect project and create DVD. Thing is, we do not know what you feed DVDArchicet with. You do not want to re-encode un-necesarily again.

    Can you just print this, it takes you a minute:
    -Intermediate from that PSG, resolution, frame rate, field order, format, bitrate (we know it is mpeg2 and 60000kbps)
    -Vegas project properties (resolution, frame rate, aspect ratio, field order)
    -snapshot of your preview window (because your description of what you did in Vegas could be misleading), possibly say what effect you applied
    -what did you export from Vegas for DVD Architect to make Blu-Ray (resolution, format, field order, frame rate, bitrate)

    Been out of the country until now ... so sorry for delay
    #1 media info for the intermediate file .. i.e output from PSG (PSG output)

    #2 Vegas project properties (standard European Blu_Ray template

    Click image for larger version

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    #3 Snapshot of preview window

    Click image for larger version

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    #4 Details of export file from Vegas to DVDA ( SMS output)


    This was then used by DVDA to create BluRay disc ... file format there is (DVDA Output)

    All that worked fine.

    The creation of a subset in DVD format is where the confusion arises ... I have tried the option suggested here (just change disc type in DVDA to DVD) and it did produce DVD for me.

    " do not know what you feed DVDArchicet with. You do not want to re-encode un-necesarily again."
    However it does re-encodes every file and takes more than 2 Hrs to prepare the burn file.

    It is the Sony support forum state this is wrong way to do things as aspect ratios are wrong (details in previous post), even though it does seem to work.
    Image Attached Files
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  11. I simulated your data, and I got NTSC DVD Architect video stream and Blu-Ray NTSC video stream (only mpeg2, I have old Vegas version only) with the same visual proportion (DAR) while watching it on screen. No cut off with DVD stream. Everything was in the frame. I even tested it loading it in Avisynth, printing image and comparing them. Sure if comparing images, there was different AR (better to say no AR), but during playback flags are properly read for DVD video.

    DVD Architect loaded both streams and in both cases it did not render video again. I did not try to actually render DVD or Blu-Ray, but in File/optimize Disc I got green check mark for both videos. Project properties in DVD Architect has to be set properly so no re-render is happening.

    What you are perhaps confused, I cannot think of the other case now, is that perhaps you try to load that DVD widescreen video stream into Vegas again and THEN Vegas shows its strict Mpeg2 specs magic and it looks like picture suddenly appears "zoomed in" (for NTSC thing, not sure now how it "fixes" for PAL now) a bit on timeline, is that the case?
    Last edited by _Al_; 29th Dec 2015 at 01:25.
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  12. Your explanation could be the reason.

    Just to clarify though - the initial DVDA projcet created with no 'warnings' in preview, however when I then change properties so that Disc type is DVD ... all files then marked as having to be re-compressed and have to be re-compressed:

    Click image for larger version

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    It took over 2 Hrs to do that - but it did work.

    What seems to be key though is the assertion that 'you can't just select DVD after a BRD render and have it work' is wrong - it does work.
    Last edited by Tafflad; 29th Dec 2015 at 15:06.
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  13. Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    Rick,

    Grab yourself a 16:9 PAL dvd and tell me what it says on the back of the box regards Aspect Ratio. My guess it will say 1:1.78

    More than that. I have been reading this forum for years and every relevant topic I read tells me that PAL dvd resizes to 1024*576 not 1048*576. Yet I said all along that when you start trying to comprehend all these numbers, and with the greatest of respect, you are going get tied up in knots.

    So once again, for your own (and my) sanity, keep it simple. If you must use Vegas then just import dvd-friendly assets. The image program should compensate correctly for the different frame size and there should be no loss of detail. Of course, and I try to recall what you wrote elsewhere, if you did any resizing of images to make them Blu Ray friendly and not let the program to the work there could be issues.
    Just grabbed a commercial DVD and it says 16 x 9 (2.35:1) so not too sure how that helps.


    My original stills were adjusted & tweaked in Lightoom and exported at 2 x vert resolution ... so typically 3192 x 2160
    They were dropped into PSG and after all transitions etc. ,, created a video output file of 1920x1080
    This went into Vegas and once audio & video additions & adjustments gave me an MPEG output file of 1920 x 1080
    This went into DVDA and that ultimately created a BRD compliant set of files with video at 1920 x 1080

    It all worked OK ....... the issues is/was to then create a DVD file Sony forum was advising that you can't just change the render as the AR will be wrong, due to fact that BRD uses square pixels and DVD doesn't ......... and unless I change the AR ... finished file will be wrong.

    It seems that in practise is that it does work OK ... simply changing disc type in DVDA is a valid way forward (ignoring disc capacity issues)

    I may have been lead down a wrong path of looking for a problem that does not exist - the program taking care of it automatically.
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  14. Originally Posted by Tafflad View Post
    It could be the reason.

    What seems to be key though is the assertion that 'you can't just select DVD after a BRD render and have it work' is wrong - it does work.
    I don't understand, are you talking about Vegas or DVD Architect?
    Other thing of notice, you seem to have DVD Architect to render your Vegas video stream, is that right, that does not need to be. Both DVD and Blu-Ray stream DVD Architect should accept if there is a proper template chosen in Vegas. I understand that Vegas & DVD Architect cooperation sometimes fails, perhaps it depends of version etc., I do not remember exactly, but in my case it worked in both cases - accepting Vegas' streams and having DVD stream same frame as Blu-Ray stream.

    Other thing that comes on my mind is that your software video player might just do some cropping while rendering that DVD stream on screen. I could notice WMP could crop something, just little tiny bit though. But as I said, loading DVD and Blu-Ray stream into Avisynth and comparing snapshots, frames are exactly the same.

    OK, you say it is alright now regarding that DAR.
    Last edited by _Al_; 29th Dec 2015 at 15:07.
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  15. I did the renders (BluRay 1920 x 1080 template) in Sony Movie Studio (~'Vegas') creating my input files for DVDA

    Then loaded these into DVDA added menu structure, playlists etc. ....... then used 'Make DVD' option and created a Blu_ray Disc. When you use the 'prepare' step ... it does a pop-up window of any alarms or notifications ...... when I created the Blu_Ray disc .. .no warnings, created fine.

    As per suggestions here - I then went into DVDA properties and changed disc type to DVD .... again the prepare step brings up warnings windows ... which is what I posted in #42 every video & audio track had to be re-compressed.
    It all worked though - just took a few Hrs.
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  16. Ok, but for that DVD you introduced one more encoding generation loss, but due to downscaling not that visible at the end perhaps, ..., at what degree it looks worse or it does not matter I do not know.
    Vegas would render fullHD 50p > Standard Definition 25i
    Your workflow is FullHD 50p > FullHD 25i > SD 25i

    I'd be curious how it compares if rendered straight from Vegas, if I'd see the differences. Surely, your workflow is quite comfortable. DVD nowadays arejust inferior anyway, especially DVD's made home.
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  17. This si where this thread started to be honest ... I had finished BRD ...... and no re-compression needed at that stage as render out of Vegas was at right format.
    I was going to re-render the individual files in each Vegas project so they would drop into DVDA at correct format (no extra re-compression stage)

    Hence the original Q ... post #1 was to find optimum bitrate to use on the 720x576 Render

    At that time I did not know you could simply change disc type in DVDA

    Maybe I will re-render one of the sub projects as DVD and compare it to where DVDA has re-compressed files .... and see if there is any noticeable difference .........
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  18. ok, some other points,

    -DVD Architect calculates bitrate for you to fill DVD if running times are longer, rendering DVD video stream in Vegas you'd need to use some bitrate calculator, if rendering in Vegas and having running time less than 1 hour or so for one layer DVD, just 1pass CBR 8500kbps is ok, otherwise you'd need to use that calculator,..., but that was explained before I think, I think you are aware of that. For DVD you just assign maximum bitrate you can. 8500 is a maximum, so you'd give it to it if there is a room. If there is not a room for bitrate that high, you encode 2pass with calculated average bitrate.

    -also, you'd perhaps need to render audio separately, not sure now if within DVD Architect you can use videostream (DVD widescreen) and assign an audio to it from another video (containing video+audio, that 25i fullHD video),

    -DVD Architect encoding engine suppose to be a bit inferior to that one in Vegas, that I remember from some discussions some decade ago, not sure if that is the case still

    that is why I said it is more comfortable to render it in DVD Architect and be done with. I'd be curious in the first place if it is justified in your case, just comparing a 20s clip, rendered in Vegas, to what you already have (DVD rendered in DVD Architect),would perhaps tell you right away, but - same bitrates!, this is important, so that test is not that simple, you'd need to set the same bitrates for that test clip.
    Last edited by _Al_; 29th Dec 2015 at 17:46.
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  19. Yep ... I did render audio separately to W64 for Blu_Ray and AC3 for DVD


    Appreciate the comments on bitrate calc was aware - Thnks.

    I may well try a 20sec test to see is re-compress stage has any noticeable difference.
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