Optimum Bitrate for DVD 'input' files

[Tafflad]

A month or so back I had a project underway where I was creating a Blu-ray disc of family 35mm slide collection.

I has image files of twice vertical resolution, in ProShowGold assembled and did the pretty stuff .... and used custom video file export to create 1920 x 1080 50fps mpeg files and followed advice to set bit rate to 60,000Kb

Then dropped these into Vegas for adding music, commentary etc .... creating output files of M2V at 25 Mbps and W64 audio files ... created Blu-ray from these.

All worked fine - happy with result.

Family members now asking for a DVD copy .......... I'm sure there are probably Blu-ray to DVD programs out there .. but as I have all transitions & audio set up, plus due to aspect ratio change it is better I re-run and create new mpeg files to drop back into Vegas.

What I am looking for is advice as to what bitrate to publish them out of Proshow Gold as.
The settings will be 720 x 576, 25fps (no audio) what should I set for bitrate ? I could leave it at the 60,000Kb I used for Bluray ... but we are dealing with 5x less pixels and 1/2 the frame rate so assume it does not need 60,000Kb
This is still image with fades & transitions ... nothing more.

[smrpix]

No need to start over. Simply output your current Vegas timeline as a DVD-compatible file.

[Tafflad]

I was informed that that is not a good approach (was my original thought) as the different aspect ratio would mean it would be clipping the video files.

If I wanted to go that route I should go into a keyframe and reset aspect ratio and apply to timeline (losing a % of area as a result)

[_Al_]

You'd need to make 16:9 DVD. Did you try to export Vegas timeline to MainConcept mpeg2/ widescreen DVD Architect PAL video stream? That is preset to 16:9 and you get the same proportions whatever you got to get Blu-Ray stream. Blu-Ray was proportionally correct, so will be your DVD. Vegas would resize to 720x576. Giving it DVD 16:9 flag. No further cropping is happening. But that 16:9 flag you have to set in DVD authoring software again.

That "input" file, better to call it intermediate file, even if it is mpeg2 (that is what I remember from last thread). ProshowGold makes intermediate mpeg2, 60,000kbps. that you load into Vegas. That I gather from your recent thread.

[Tafflad]

AL ... no problem with creating the DVD Render out of Vegas .... to use the terms above all I am looking for is a guide as to what bitrate to set for the Intermediate video file output ..... Ihad used 60,000 Kb for the Blu-ray intermediate files ... just looking for a guide as to what to set the intermediate DVD files ... just assumed that 60,000 Kbps is too high and I should reduce it.

[PuzZLeR]

I'm confused here, or maybe missed something.

You must be talking about an intermediate file in between the render and blu-ray/DvD since 60,000kbps would be way to high for DvD video (9,800kbps max) or even blu-ray video (40,000kbps max), or even with complete highest bitrate A/V (48,000kbps) blu-ray.

I don't use Vegas, but if it can output lossless (like HuffYUV) use this if available, especially if AviSynth is not an option. I would not encode to lossy, even at 60,000kbps, in this case.

Smrpx and _Al_ make sense. Just output what you did on the timeline to a proper DvD/MPEG-2 encoder, and the proportions should be similar at 16:9, and encode. However, I will highly recommend you use lossless for this middle step instead of some lossy file at 60,000kbps. (Still not sure if I understood this 60,000kbps part. )

As per the final DvD, I personally would use constant quality (if available on the encoder), but if space isn't an issue, and you don't mind ~1 hour on a single layer DvD, or ~2 hours on a DvD-DL disc, then just encode away at 8,000kbps-9,000kbp+ (but less than 9,800kbps) and you should get a DvD as good as it gets for DvD.

[Tafflad]

I'm obviously confusing people ....

I have to get the output from ProShowGold into a format that I can 'input' into Vegas.
The best output file format that I can get out of this is to use mpeg2 ........... this is the least compressed option.
So that sets the file type. There is no option for lossless, and in any event I an not outing 'from' Vegas ... this question is about output 'from' ProShow Gold .... the output files will be used as 'input' to Vegas.

For the previous project the advice I had was to set bitrate to 60,000kb .... then these output files were used as input into Vegas.

If as you mention 9,800kbbs is max then I assume I might as well set to that ?


The reason I don't want to use the existing timeline and re-render with a MPEG-2 16:9 codec, is that PAL widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios, to do this right in Vegas you need to set the correct aspect ratio at edit time not at Render time. (again Vegas forum advice)

[smrpix]

PAL widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios

No. They're exactly the same 16:9.

What software did you use the author the Blu Ray, what software are you planning to use to author the DVD? If you're using DVD Architect (I believe) you simply need to switch your project from BR to DVD, you don't even need to return to Vegas.

[PuzZLeR]

There is no option for lossless, and in any event I an not outing 'from' Vegas ... this question is about output 'from' ProShow Gold .... the output files will be used as 'input' to Vegas.

For the previous project the advice I had was to set bitrate to 60,000kb .... then these output files were used as input into Vegas.

If as you mention 9,800kbbs is max then I assume I might as well set to that ?

Ok. I don't use these tools so didn't know. Shame it doesn't do lossless, and I imagine no AviSynth either.

If you need to encode a mid-file to MPEG-2, then I would personally use as high a bitrate as I can bear since even at 1,000,000,000,000mbps it will still be lossy.

But I would just employ smrpix'es advice first. And yes, it's the same aspect ratio for PAL widescreen for SD and HD when we're talking BD and DvD. We only have two for both, and that's 16:9 and, of course, 4:3. (For blu-ray, 4:3 is only available for the SD spec.)

[Tafflad]

PAL widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios

No. They're exactly the same 16:9.

What software did you use the author the Blu Ray, what software are you planning to use to author the DVD? If you're using DVD Architect (I believe) you simply need to switch your project from BR to DVD, you don't even need to return to Vegas.

The comment I had )form several sources was that 1920 x 1080 Blu-ray is not teh same as PAL DVD widescreen.

"PAL Widescreen and PAL HD use different aspect ratios. Assuming you set your project for PAL HD you will get black bars on the PAL Widescreen rendering unless you stretch it at render time or crop it at editing time. HD is 16:9 at 1920 x 1080 PAR 1.0.
PAL widescreen is 720 x 576 PAR 1.4567. A PAR of 1.4567 means that PAL Widescreen is not using square pixels like HD does. In order to calculate the "real" dimensions in square pixels you must multiple the width by the PAR. if you multiply 720 x 1.4567 you get 1,048.824 but since you can't have a fractional pixel we around up to 1049. That means that PAL Widescreen is actually 1049 x 576. if you divide 576 by 9 and then multiple the result (64) by16 you get 1024. Since 1024 does not equal 1049 PAL Widescreen is not 16:9! So your PAL Widescreen is going to be wider than your HD Widescreen. Another way to check is to divide the width by the height. 1920 / 1080 = 1.78:1 and 1049 / 576 = 1.82:1 so again, PAL Widescreen has a wider ratio than HD. "


>What software did you use the author the Blu Ray

Stills input to PSG then intermediate mpeg output file into Vegas .. (after editing) Render as M2V 7 and W64 streams, these then put into DVD Architect to create BluRay disc.

There were around 30 separate Blu-ray project files which provided M2V files for DVD Architect,

Finished Blu-Ray project was fine .. just need to get a DVD version now.

[DB83]

The above AR comment whilst correct is going to confuse you.

Just go back to Pro Show Gold and output 720*576 mpeg2 files at 16:9 maximum bitrate @8000 bps. That will give you 1 hour of video. If you want more reduce the bitrate. You might be able to go higher but surely you will have audio at the end of the project.

[Tafflad]

Thanks ... yep adding the audio in at Vegas edit stage ... Due to run time I will have to split over 2 x DVD anyway

So will have MP3 music & commentary as well as video .... but I'll check with a bitrate calculator to make sure I'm getting best Render out of Vegas .. should have enough space over 2 discs.

[DB83]

Well two hours is just 4000 kbps. More than enough for 'slides' and some transitions.

Always consider the end user. What might be 'interesting' now might not next time around. One disk with a good menu structure so that they are not 'forced' to watch the whole show at once is preferred. And on one disk so that they can not lose the other one

[PuzZLeR]

Tafflad, you're confusing Display Aspect Ratio (DAR) with Pixel Aspect Ratio (PAR).

DAR is indeed 16/9 in either case, HD or SD. But that HD resolution uses square pixels, which would be PAR = 1:1 = 1.0 (in your example).

DvD PAL is also DAR=16/9, but due to TV screens back in those days, or for whatever reason, they applied PAR=64:45=1.422 (2s are infinite), changing the pixels to a rectangular scheme that would "fit". This is something any MPEG-2/DvD encoder worth its use should easily adjust for you. And, depending on source, you shouldn't need any black bars if you adjust the pixels correct.

This following equation explains it all:

Width/Height=DAR/PAR

Your example using PAR=1.4567 is not wrong, just that it applies a different standard. Long story here, and that was another thread...

[manono]

So will have MP3 music & commentary...

Not on a DVD, you won't. Haven't you even looked at What Is DVD? at the top of the page here?

I don't use it, but I don't believe Vegas can't do a simple 1920x1080->720x576 resize without adding black bars. Surely they have a way to resize while at the same time ignoring aspect ratio. If I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me. And if it can do it, you can use the same source files you already prepared and imported into Vegas

[smrpix]

You don't need to return to Vegas, you don't need to return to Pro Show Gold. All you need to do is switch your DVD architect project from Blu Ray to DVD and allow it to re-render your assets. Your menus, etc. will function exactly as before. Let the software do the work for you.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/authoring_and_burning_blu-ray_discs

Money quote: " you can... complete the project as one type and then change it to the other so that you can burn both a DVD and a Blu-ray Disc™ if you want to."

[Tafflad]

So will have MP3 music & commentary...

Not on a DVD, you won't. Haven't you even looked at What Is DVD? at the top of the page here?

I don't use it, but I don't believe Vegas can't do a simple 1920x1080->720x576 resize without adding black bars. Surely they have a way to resize while at the same time ignoring aspect ratio. If I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me. And if it can do it, you can use the same source files you already prepared and imported into Vegas

The Vegas Timeline will have a mixture of Mp3, and WAV files as well as some PCM uncompressed.... they will be Rendered out for DVD as AC3
I'm using AC3 as it maintains standard compliance without the almost 6 timse bigger uncompressed PCM files
I did use PCM those Blu-ray project as plenty of space.

[Tafflad]

You don't need to return to Vegas, you don't need to return to Pro Show Gold. All you need to do is switch your DVD architect project from Blu Ray to DVD and allow it to re-render your assets. Your menus, etc. will function exactly as before. Let the software do the work for you.

http://www.sonycreativesoftware.com/authoring_and_burning_blu-ray_discs

Money quote: " you can... complete the project as one type and then change it to the other so that you can burn both a DVD and a Blu-ray Disc™ if you want to."

I have to modify the projects anyway ... as 2Hr 20 of BluRay is not going to fit on a single DVD ... without a lot of compression.

For the DVD versions, I'll re-cut as 2 DVD projects

[manono]

I have to modify the projects anyway ... as 2Hr 20 of BluRay is not going to fit on a single DVD ... without a lot of compression.

For the DVD versions, I'll re-cut as 2 DVD projects

Or you could put the whole thing on a single DVD-9. Much more convenient. Sure, DVD9s cost a bit more but they're your relatives, right? They're worth it, right? And they'll make nice Christmas presents.

[Tafflad]

So will have MP3 music & commentary...

Not on a DVD, you won't. Haven't you even looked at What Is DVD? at the top of the page here?

I don't use it, but I don't believe Vegas can't do a simple 1920x1080->720x576 resize without adding black bars. Surely they have a way to resize while at the same time ignoring aspect ratio. If I'm wrong maybe someone can correct me. And if it can do it, you can use the same source files you already prepared and imported into Vegas

I'm told by Sony Vegas forum 'moderators' that it can't be done unless you resize using KeyFrame and apply to project ... it then expands image to avoid black bars but you lose data due to cropping. Or you don't change and then you get black bars when you Render out to different size.

[Tafflad]

Well two hours is just 4000 kbps. More than enough for 'slides' and some transitions.

Always consider the end user. What might be 'interesting' now might not next time around. One disk with a good menu structure so that they are not 'forced' to watch the whole show at once is preferred. And on one disk so that they can not lose the other one

Makes sense to create 2 discs .... the one for all family members and a separate of School trips etc ... of only interest to my parents.

Agree with you on menu structure .. I had built a good one into Blu-ray disc, first time I had done a lot with menus .. took a while to figure it out.

[Tafflad]

I have to modify the projects anyway ... as 2Hr 20 of BluRay is not going to fit on a single DVD ... without a lot of compression.

For the DVD versions, I'll re-cut as 2 DVD projects

Or you could put the whole thing on a single DVD-9. Much more convenient. Sure, DVD9s cost a bit more but they're your relatives, right? They're worth it, right? And they'll make nice Christmas presents.

Although not the solution here ... are Dual Layer SS disks fully compatible with all DVD players ............ I'd always kept clear thinking that not all players will be happy with them. Although no evidence for that. (any choice better -R or +R)

[manono]

Although not the solution here ...

Don't know why not. I don't believe DVD players have any more problems with dual-layer DVDRs than they do +R or -R these days.

[DB83]

The only 'issue' with a dual-layer disk is the layer break.

Lots on here about that.

[_Al_]

I'm told by Sony Vegas forum 'moderators' that it can't be done unless you resize using KeyFrame and apply to project ... it then expands image to avoid black bars but you lose data due to cropping. Or you don't change and then you get black bars when you Render out to different size.

I do not get that. You have Vegas project that you made Blu-Ray out of. Blu-Ray is 16:9, no black bars right? So DVD would be ok. Nothing needs to be corrected. Just export whatever length you need as widescreen DVD Pal,

or post your Vegas GUI snapshot with that Blu-Ray project where preview could be seen so we could understand if something else is going on and possibly with mediainfo of that intermediate (I think it is close to HD resolution, 50p?) and details or snap picture of Vegas' project properties.

[Tafflad]

No there is a definite difference in image size .... I just tried it now and if I flip to DVD .. the image becomes wider as it 'zooms' in to avoid black bars on horizontal .. losing portion of image off the edge.
I checked again on forum and had a bundle of people confirm widescreen Blu-ray is not the same aspect ratio as 16:9 DVD.
However .. I'm now having a scan through to see if the resizing crops off anything of importance .......... if its doesn't then I will resize in Vegas.

I'll also take some mediainfo details later in day and post them

[DB83]

I just wonder if you are being 'fooled' by what you see in Vegas.

What matters is what is sent to disk for burning and that the player sends to the tv.

A/R is aspect ratio whether it is dvd or blu ray. The difference is that Blu Ray uses square pixels so 1920/16*9 = 1080. It is stored like that on the disk so there is no rescaling.

DVD is stored as 720*576 but the pixels are not square. The 16:9 flag will rescale that to 1024/16*9 = 576 and your player must then scale that again to fill your tv (which is 1920*1080). But since both 1024*576 and 1920*1080 are now pure 16:9 there can be no picture loss as long as you start with proper assets in the first place ie 720*576 16:9.

[_Al_]

I'll also take some mediainfo details later in day and post them

Mediainfo is not enough, Vegas project properties and a snap of your Vegas Preview window, because you might use effect, pan&scan or whatever, you come up with black bar thing along this discussion and it is not clear where it came from.

-Combination of Vegas project setting (properly 16:9) and proper pan&scan (if your intermediate is not 16:9), would get you preview with no black bars and 16:9. You do something out of ordinary. Like not having project 16:9.
-If your intermediate is not 16:9 and you just letterbox it into 16:9, then black bars would be on Blu-Ray and DVD as well.
-If you do not have to letterbox, or you crop intermediate, then there should not be black bars on either Blu-Ray and DVD as well.

So , it is weird that Blu-Ray comes up somehow correctly and DVD has to be letterboxed or something. Visually it should look the same. And as DB83 describes, resolution is not an issue. What matters is display aspect ratio and it should be, must be 16:9.

[smrpix]

I'll say this a 3rd time and then shut up. You don't even have to return to Vegas. The HD assets you originally exported to DVD Architect can be properly converted to DVD-compliant assets right there.

[_Al_]

Yes, definitely, if he is doing things right. And he says he needs to create his DVD shorter, so either he does some arrangements that need Vegas again to make title shorter. But even then he just might replace that title in DVD Architect and use the same project he designed there, make sure end-action and link in the menu are ok.