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Poll: What’s the best type of VHS capture device I can buy with $200?

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  1. Member
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    Hi,

    I want to start converting VHS tapes to DVD’s using my computer and for that I want to buy a video capture device. My max budjet is around $200.

    After researching and reading here on the forum, I have found that there any many options as I describe bellow:

    a) USB PEN devices like: EZcap.tv, ATI TV HD 600, Hauppauge 610, etc…
    b) USB Boxes like: ION Video 2PC MKII, Pinnacle Dazzle, Hauppauge 1192 or 1212
    c) Firewire Boxes like: Grass Valley/Canopus ADVC110
    d) Old AGP ATI or Matrox Graphic Card
    e) New Video Capture PCIe Cards (Avermedia EZMaker SDK Express C725B or CE310B)

    So what is the option that brings more quality to the video? My objective is to have the best quality possible when convert VHS to DVD’s.

    Feel free to advice on a brand and model up to $200

    Thanks
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  2. Mod Neophyte Super Moderator redwudz's Avatar
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    What's your VHS drive/player? That is very important.
    You should also do some research into TBCs (Time Based Correctors) https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?T#Time%20Base%20Corrector,%20TBC.
    You need them most times for the best quality.

    After all that, you then can look into a capture device. I like the DV devices myself, owning a Canopus ADVC100.
    The downside is that DV transfer requires a FireWire connection but the format is very easy to edit.

    But others here probably have some more 'modern' ideas.

    And welcome to our forums.
    Last edited by redwudz; 16th Nov 2015 at 21:51.
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    Along with redwuz' recommendations about better players and line/frame tbc's, remember that The Canopus is inferior for VHS capture. VHS and and DV are not good friends. There are hundreds of threads in this forum over the past 10 years that recommend against it. But do what you want.
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  4. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Would probably stay away from DV and its 4:1:1, only to be then converted to 4:2:0 with a DVD compliant MPEG2.
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  5. He says he's in Portugal and should have PAL 4:2:0 DV-AVI after capping.
    Last edited by manono; 17th Nov 2015 at 03:59.
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  6. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    He says he's in Portugal and should have PAL 4:2:0 DV-AVI after capping.
    I saw that PAL DV does 4:2:0 on Wikipedia, but was not sure I should believe it. Nevermind my comment then.
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    Originally Posted by redwudz View Post
    What's your VHS drive/player?

    You should also do some research into TBCs

    After all that, you then can look into a capture device. I like the DV devices myself, owning a Canopus ADVC100.
    The downside is that DV transfer requires a FireWire connection but the format is very easy to edit.
    About my VCR at the moment i have a Sony SLV-E70 but i will buy a new one (a professional one) and about TBC i also need to buy one.

    But for now i want to know what is the best video capture devide i can buy up to $200. You advice me to get the Canopus ADVC100 and it seems a good device. My computer does not have FireWire, but it's not a problem because i can buy a Firewire card.

    But some other user here said and i quote: "The Canopus is inferior for VHS capture. VHS and and DV are not good friends."

    My objective is to convert VHS to DVD. So is the Canopus a ideal device or not?

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    The Canopus is inferior for VHS capture. VHS and and DV are not good friends.
    Ok, thanks for your advice. So if you dont recommend Canopus for VHS what is the devide under $200 that you recommend?

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by manono View Post
    He says he's in Portugal and should have PAL 4:2:0 DV-AVI after capping.
    Yes, i'm located in Portuga. I don't understand much about PAL specs, so when you say PAL here is 4:2:0 what do you mean? Is this a good or bad thing?

    Also, does the Portugal PAL specifications force me to buy a specific video capture device?

    Thanks
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  10. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    remember that The Canopus is inferior for VHS capture. VHS and and DV are not good friends.....
    I'm sure that may well be true for NTSC..... Not necessarily so for PAL though (OP is in PAL land )

    A recommendation for the Canopus option from me....I get excellent results here using an ADVC50, in conjunction with an old Panasonic DVD recorder used as a 'form' of TBC..... although exactly what it does is the subject of some debate....

    Edit: posted before seeing the OPs last post -- sorry!.

    In response to the 4:2:0 question... yes, it's a good thing from a capturing DV point of view...

    See HERE for some technical notes on the subject..

    The Canopus devices can be switched to capture either format..
    Last edited by pippas; 17th Nov 2015 at 07:38.
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    Jeez, do readers have to sit through another repeat of a decades-old debate? The colorspace is the least of the problems, although analog color being what it is will start looking posterized and plasticky with further processing. And if the owner wants anything other than PC-only display, there will have to be some post processing. Basically a DV device is used for 1:1 DV transfer, not capture. Analog is "best" captured with analog capture devices.

    Look, fellas, VHS has all kinds of noise and other defects that don't happen with DV, not counting a DV camera operator's errors with frequent bad exposures and other mistakes. Typically a DV capture device has no adjustment for analog input levels and makes digital artifacts out of analog noise. This happens whether the source is analog PAL or NTSC. This has been documented and demonstrated countless times here and elsewhere. We all know that the average user getting into digitizing video is happy to just get a picture that moves and makes sounds, and wouldn't know video garbage if it sat down with him for dinner. The first thing a more discriminating user does with VHS-to-DV captures is to try to fix colors and clean up the noise -- that's when the trouble starts. And half the trouble is in the nature of analog to DV capture.

    nqservices will likely have a tough time finding a good PAL analog capture device in his country, not to mention finding a better PAL player/tbc setup. So it's my guess he'll go for DV anyway. True, DV is easy to edit if you're talking about simple cut-and-join to make a final video. But the final video has to be lossy re-encoded again unless the owner wants PC-only playback. Anything to do with cropping off head switching noise, fixing color and levels, denoising, etc., will re-encode DV again for more loss before it's done with. To avoid that the user will have to decode DV to lossless media anyway -- unless he does what the average user does, which is to end up with noisy, blocky, third-rate results and then blame it all on VHS.

    The O.P. asked for "the best". He'll likely end up with less than best but that's often the way most people are forced to go. As for the capture device itself, the best analog devices cost less than $200 these days. The bigger problem is a proper player and line/frame tbc's. We already know what the owner will get if a typical player setup and DV card or camera is used. That's likely to happen. There's a ton of threads in the restoration and capture forums to show how much work is involved with that method -- assuming the owner really is interested in working for the best a hobbyist can get with old VHS tapes, which ain't often the case.
    Last edited by LMotlow; 17th Nov 2015 at 08:35.
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  12. Of course, this 'decades old debate' is actually probably a new one for the OP?.....

    Again though - as is always the case - there will be those who recommend the Canopus device, and those who don't.
    And - this being the internet - the OP will have to 'guess' which advice to follow.

    From my understanding, the poster 'LordSmurf' is highly regarded for his expert comment. Here is his take on the Canopus devices and PAL :

    http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-capture/5734-capture-analog-video.html#post30508
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    Problem with PAL VHS -> DV ain't color resolution, although DV will make it look kinda plastic. The problem is DV compression artifacts, analog noise, and video level control.
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    The best ATI AIW cards are apparently great for VHS capture (although IIRCC sometimes tempermental), but are only an option if you have access to a PC with an AGP slot running Windows XP.

    If you want a USB device to capture uncompressed video on a modern PC with a modern Windows OS, get the Hauppauge 610 USB Live 2. The ATI TV Wonder HD 600 USB2 is hard to find in Europe. Also some people encounter difficulty installing it on a Windows 7 system (64-bit or 32-bit). I have not had problems doing it, but I remember trying to help someone who simply could not get the drivers to install. The other ATI TV Wonder HD 600/650 devices have over-sensitive automatic gain controls that cause the video to flash periodically.

    The two AVerMedia PCI-e cards are not well known, so is hard to say if they have any serious flaws or great virtues. If I had to pick one of them, it would be the CE310B. It appears to have a 3D comb filter. It also has controls for brightness, contrast, hue, saturation, sharpness, plus it works with a variety of third party software. All good things.

    Firewire has been covered.
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  15. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    Basically a DV device is used for 1:1 DV transfer, not capture. Analog is "best" captured with analog capture devices.
    I don't quite understand how it'll be a '1:1 DV transfer' since a Canopus box does an analog to digital conversion and then outputs DV-AVI. Maybe you mean that WinDV will do a transfer. I believe 'capture' to be a perfectly good term for what goes on.

    I agree with usually_quiet that if he decides not to go with the Canopus box, a little $30 USB device is the way to go. He's recommending the Hauppauge 610 USB Live 2. nqservices might then be able to make even you happy as he'll be able to capture as lossless. He is asking for advice for the 'best' way to do it and no one is arguing that lossless isn't the 'best' way. And yes, nqservices, those things work for both NTSC and PAL.
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    First i want to thank you ALL for all your advices and information provided until know… i’m a newbie on this, having found this forum with a lot people that are helpful and know a lot about this subject is excellent.

    What I will please ask you guys now, is to try to resume your advices and recommendations to specific device what will better serve by needs.

    From the polling vote I now see that the device with most votes is:
    Firewire Boxes like: Grass Valley/Canopus ADVC110

    So at the moment this are options that I’m thinking to buy:

    - USB PEN >> EZcap.tv, Hauppauge 610 USB Live 2 or ION Video 2PC MKII
    - Firewire Box >> Canopus ADVC110 or ??

    As said before my objective is one and one only: to convert VHS to DVD with the best quality possible. The DVD's will then almost all be played and used on the new LCD TV because nowadays almost no one has the old CRT TVs.

    So from that options can you please advise / recommend me on what is the best device I can buy?

    Thanks
    Last edited by nqservices; 17th Nov 2015 at 18:05.
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  17. Dinosaur Supervisor KarMa's Avatar
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    Originally Posted by nqservices View Post
    As said before my objective is one and one only: to convert VHS to DVD with the best quality possible.
    Step one would be to stay away from converting to DV.
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    [/QUOTE]Step one would be to stay away from converting to DV.[/QUOTE]

    Hi,

    So if i understand you properly what you are saying is for me NOT to buy the Canopus ADVC110 or any other DV device, correct?

    If yes, from your experience what will be the best option for me to buy in terms of an analog device: EZcap.tv or Hauppauge 610 USB Live 2 or ION Video 2PC MKII (im not sure if ION Video 2PC MKII is considered a analog device, but it seems a good option mainly because of the little box that seems more robust)?

    Thanks
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    Originally Posted by nqservices View Post
    First i want to thank you ALL for all your advices and information provided until know… i’m a newbie on this, having found this forum with a lot people that are helpful and know a lot about this subject is excellent.

    What I will please ask you guys now, is to try to resume your advices and recommendations to specific device what will better serve by needs.

    From the polling vote I now see that the device with most votes is:
    Firewire Boxes like: Grass Valley/Canopus ADVC110

    So at the moment this are options that I’m thinking to buy:

    - USB PEN >> EZcap.tv, Hauppauge 610 USB Live 2 or ION Video 2PC MKII
    - Firewire Box >> Canopus ADVC110 or ??

    As said before my objective is one and one only: to convert VHS to DVD with the best quality possible. The DVD's will then almost all be played and used on the new LCD TV because nowadays almost no one has the old CRT TVs.

    So from that options can you please advise / recommend me on what is the best device I can buy?

    Thanks
    I didn't vote because I don't think a poll is a good approach to solving this problem. A better approach would be to ask questions which help you eliminate some devices from consideration. Much of what constitutes the "best" is determined by personal preference and practical considerations.

    As an example, lossless capture files consume 25GB to 30GB per hour. DV consumes about 13GB per hour. Many members here recommend saving the original capture files for archival purposes. For some the amount of storage required for their archive doesn't matter. For others minimizing the amount of storage they need is an important concern.
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  20. Originally Posted by nqservices View Post
    So if i understand you properly what you are saying is for me NOT to buy the Canopus ADVC110 or any other DV device, correct?
    As you will have read in this thread, those posters located in the US tend to dislike the Canopus boxes, for reasons described in the posts above.

    In reality, it does have a number of useful attributes

    - It works better in PAL configurations.. at least from the colour point of view

    - It completely eliminates problems with audio sync, which can arise using capture devices that use the sound card 'clock' crystal as a reference. Canopus converters use locked audio for perfect 'sync'

    - The DV format is easy to edit. As it is 'intraframe' you can easily cut with frame accuracy. It's not quite so easy to edit mpeg2 captured footage, which is what devices like the EZcap will use.


    You will also be considering your final output options? More and more people these days seem to be moving away from DVD, as it begins to fade from mainstream use.

    It is simple to convert your edited DV footage to mp4 for example, using free software. That is a popular format which is suitable for computer replay, along with media players and the majority of USB inputs fitted to modern PVRs and TVs.
    It is also quite efficient size wise. You would expect to be able to save your files at about 1/10th (or even less) the size of the 'captured' DV files, without any visible loss of quality.

    I've attached a short 30 second clip to this post. Captured from a 20 year old VHS tape, with my Canopus converter. The subject is chosen because you are likely to know what it should look like! It has only been de-interlaced, resized and converted to mp4.
    I'm sure the DV file could probably be improved by the careful application of filtering. We have several experts on this forum who could advise on that side of things.

    I'm quite pleased with my results from my Canopus converter, and I think it is a good contender for under $200 'best' option. As you can read not everyone agrees....especially those folk based in NTSC areas..
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  21. I'd make you a deal on my still-functional ATI card and AGP Win XP computer, but shipping to Portugal would be a bummer.
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    Yep, I still have my two AIW's but will hold on. There are 40 tapes left in my original collection of 230.

    That mp4 is a pretty good example of the low standard that typical users enjoy. It's improperly played, has a lot of playback noise, flutter, jitter, poor line sync, ripples, and low bitrate image degradation. Canopus, poor playback, and stingy bitrates are three different things, but the mp4 does leave me convinced that two lossy encodes are not better than one encode at a decent bitrate.

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    I'm sure the DV file could probably be improved by the careful application of filtering.
    Much of that careful filtering shouldn't be necessary with proper playback and capture. Much of it can't be repaired, ever.

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    It is also quite efficient size wise. You would expect to be able to save your files at about 1/10th (or even less) the size of the 'captured' DV files, without any visible loss of quality.
    No visible loss? I rest my case: the typical user will tolerate just about anything. Standards are pretty low these days. Sometimes the results look worse than good VHS.

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    More and more people these days seem to be moving away from DVD, as it begins to fade from mainstream use.
    That might be eventually true, but DVD hasn't faded yet. It still outsells BluRay and MPEG is still the broadcast standard. Globally, computer games outsell DVD and BluRay.

    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    I'm quite pleased with my results from my Canopus converter, and I think it is a good contender for under $200 'best' option. As you can read not everyone agrees....especially those folk based in NTSC areas..
    In some respects you're fortunate in being so easily pleased, but analog to DV isn't especially pleasing to many people in other countries either, whether it's PAL or NTSC. Maybe Portugal is an exception. In many countries analog capture with analog devices is impossible to obtain, so a DV technology and hardware based on the Pentium 3 might be the only way to go in that case.
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    - The DV format is easy to edit. As it is 'intraframe' you can easily cut with frame accuracy. It's not quite so easy to edit mpeg2 captured footage, which is what devices like the EZcap will use.
    All the small USB-stick type devices and the the PCI-e devices the OP asked about encode using software and it is normally possible to capture with a lossless software encoder using third party software. Lossless formats (HuffYUV or Ut Video) also use interframe compression and can easily be edited with no loss. Only the manufacturer's software would limit someone to using MPEG-2 or H.264, but nobody who replied here so far is recommending that route for VHS capture.

    However, I work almost entirely with MPEG-2 video (from a DVD recorder and TV tuner cards), and it isn't difficult to edit at all these days. Frame accurate cutting with minimal loss is achievable with several editors that do smart encoding. Smart encoding only re-encodes the GOPs adjacent to the cut, and then only when the cuts occur within a GOP rather than at the boundary of one. Such editors don't have to be expensive. MPEG-VCR costs $19. Cuttermaran is free, but requires demultiplexed sources.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 18th Nov 2015 at 09:08. Reason: grammar
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  24. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    In some respects you're fortunate in being so easily pleased.....
    Obviously true, seeing as I don't feel the need to buy any new kit for transferring my few remaining VHS tapes!

    What would be nice is if you could post a short clip yourself, to illustrate just how much better using your options would be.... And perhaps include the details of the equipment you use, and the procedures you have followed ?...

    It would give the OP an idea of just how different using a Canopus converter and a 'consumer' VHS player is, to the better results you have managed to achieve yourself....
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  25. Option 1:
    If you want to keep it cheap and still high quality, get a DVD recorder/VCR combo. That should be about $200. Use it at the highest quality setting.

    Option 2:
    For my capture device, I have a Pinnacle PCTV Pro. It's the same bt8x8-based capture card as the Hauppauge WinTV capture cards. They actually make excellent captures. And you can get them for like $30. A good VCR and d decent TBC will put you over your budget though.
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    What would be nice is if you could post a short clip yourself, to illustrate just how much better using your options would be.... And perhaps include the details of the equipment you use, and the procedures you have followed ?...

    It would give the OP an idea of just how different using a Canopus converter and a 'consumer' VHS player is, to the better results you have managed to achieve yourself....
    Comparisons and analysis have been posted in many threads in this forum and others over the years. I returned my Canopus years ago after two VHS captures quickly convinced me to do so. I've seen plenty of DV stuff since. No sense repeating all that or replaying the debate all over again. Anyway, the Canopus card is not related to poor VHS playback. Just the fact of using a better player and a line-level tbc would make a big improvement in that sample, DV or not.

    The gear I use is in my public profile.
    Last edited by LMotlow; 18th Nov 2015 at 09:25.
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  27. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    What would be nice is if you could post a short clip yourself, to illustrate just how much better using your options would be.... And perhaps include the details of the equipment you use, and the procedures you have followed ?...

    It would give the OP an idea of just how different using a Canopus converter and a 'consumer' VHS player is, to the better results you have managed to achieve yourself....
    Comparisons and analysis have been posted in many threads in this forum and others over the years. I returned my Canopus years ago after two VHS captures quickly convinced me to do so. I've seen plenty of DV stuff since. No sense repeating all that or replaying the debate all over again. Anyway, the Canopus card is not related to poor VHS playback. Just the fact of using a better player and a line-level tbc would make a big improvement in that sample, DV or not.

    The gear I use is in my public profile.
    I'll take that as a 'no' then?......

    Sorry hqservices, you'll just have to imagine how much better LMotlow's results actually are.....
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    Originally Posted by pippas View Post
    Sorry hqservices, you'll just have to imagine how much better LMotlow's results actually are.....
    Considering the sample you posted, that wouldn't be difficult even with a DV capture. I've made no statement that hasn't already been verified by others. If you don't like what experts and pros have said many times, suit yourself. But don't lay it on hqservices to base his plans on a poor quality sample capture, whether it's DV or not. He has to make his own decision.
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  29. Originally Posted by LMotlow View Post
    Considering the sample you posted, that wouldn't be difficult even with a DV capture. I've made no statement that hasn't already been verified by others. If you don't like what experts and pros have said many times, suit yourself. But don't lay it on hqservices to base his plans on a poor quality sample capture, whether it's DV or not. He has to make his own decision.

    Yup, that's a no....

    Shame, I think a sample from one of the 'pros' would have been helpful to both nqservices, and to me....
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    Yep, that's a no from a former Canopus user who'll not make the same mistake again. I'm not a pro either, but I've restored plenty of bad tapes using lossless capture and so have many others here. My niece actually cried when she saw what a "pro" lab did her to VHS wedding VHS from 15 years ago. I gave up trying to clean up the noisy DV and recaptured the VHS properly about 2 years ago.

    But if you care for a sample of a lossless cap made with better equipment, I've attached one. You won't see ripples and wiggles. I didn't keep the original cap but the mp4 was made from the cap after it was inverse telecined and 4 pixels of head-switching noise was cropped. I still have the lossless ivtc'd working files, from which this mp3 was made. Originally recorded in 1991 with a low-powered, noisy, kinda soft analog cable signal, cheap wires, and a cheap Radio Shack cable amp hooked in (which is where some of the chroma bleed and rough edge noise came from), into a basic 2-head 1989 RCA VCR. At least I used good premium tape, LOL!. Captured with an ATI 9600XT, a rebuilt Panasonic AG-1980 -- sharpness turned down to smooth some of the cheap amp noise -- and a SignVideo PA-1 proc amp for levels. A version of MDegrain2 from member 2BDecided, DeHalo_Alpha, LimitedSharpenFaster, and ColorYUV to tame oversaturated red. Immaterial whether it's lossless or DV, this is a sample of better playback. Look for stable, smoother play, less chroma and tape noise, more accurate color, and movie film source that looks the way 1954 film is supposed to look. Still needs some work (look at the magenta in the blue sky, for one thing, or residual color bleed), but I'm busy with something else right now. No audio sync problem. I've never had it happen with my ATI setup unless I did something silly. I usually audition SD videos in Media Player Classic. This is destined for DVD after I resize it to 704x480. The sample is 640x480.

    You can get out your Canopus and borrow someone's analog-to-lossless gear if you like to make comparison samples, but you'll just be repeating what has already been done in this forum. I'd contend that a DV cap would look oversharpened with hot specular highlights, but some DV user will have to demonstrate that for you if you don't do it yourself.

    [EDIT]Oops. That wasn't my AG-1980. It was the PV-S4670 with DMR-ES10 pass-thru and BlueJeansCable s-video. My old notes say I used ATI's capture controls to reduce sharpness a little. Sorry, sometimes I have a hard time telling them apart.
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    Last edited by LMotlow; 18th Nov 2015 at 14:32.
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