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  1. Member
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    Hi!

    I'm very angry.


    I want to condemn someone in a very deep dark hole and zoom out from him at very high speed... to look like it were kind of an endless pit. So basically...

    Main desire: Very deep pit, ultra-fast zoom out, kind of twirling heat wave or sth (I know you get the picture).

    I'm thinking of putting the actor in a shallow hole floored/walled with green screen, shooting from say a ladder directly above him as he looks up to the cam... and then of course the editing magic later??

    But I think you might have a trick. Thanks in advance.
    Last edited by Crye; 7th Oct 2015 at 07:10. Reason: Clarity
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  2. You're thinking about it backwards. First figure out how you're going to do the pit effect -- 3D graphics? After Effects layers? -- and then shoot the actor to place into the effect.
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  3. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Unless you are starting off very close up with a wide angle lens (where there would be perspective/foreshortening shifts), or are shooting stereo3d, there is little to no noticeable change in flattening/foreshortening on the person when zooming out. So you can actually just lock down the cam (static shot) and digitally reduce the image more easily.

    Scott
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  4. Member racer-x's Avatar
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    Kinda like this, only in reverse....

    Got my retirement plans all set. Looks like I only have to work another 5 years after I die........
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    Oh yes! This .gif intelligently simulates the idea except I'd like to make the hole an evil pit which will be cylindrical like a well. Think of it as looking down a lift's internal shaft from surface and being speedily retracted from subject who is abandoned at the foot of the shaft, visually being separated away too, at the same 180degrees (from your/cam's POV)...like in those cliche action movie escape scenes.

    So, like in this gif those recurring photo frames would be the concrete decks of the lift as we know, waiting for plaster to make our walls, as we build our homes. So now we want a craftsman to refine/shape those "v" edges and build us a cylindrical mud wall down the way to form the hole. The way this image zooms into my eyes here just makes the inspiration go wilder.

    I mentioned Green Screen bc of how I imagined this scene in the first place....green screen stock video footage that was a zoom through dark walls to a target that had the green. I'm not yet as familiar with the machinations of this green tech but I know it "removes" a color. So I was hoping the dark walls could instead be the green for me to put those ancient-type walls designed in say a 2D app...like those ancient walls in the cartoons, or say Lord of the rings, yeah.

    So I get the "Shoot flat and then Zoom in NLE" idea and it's so clever and so promptly thought through for the simplicity! The issue now is...I actually want to start from just above his head down there at the bottom (bc I will take him there myself) and then rocket up through those scary walls in the terrible gloom and darkness..up...up...up...then out into sudden bright overflow of light. So how does a flat shot get those walls to actually fly past, at my sides, as I speed up angrily, completely unmerciful to the pleading captive? Watching this unkindness, sinister mood and speed to the land of nowhere, and in the company of the sounds, even the most wicked person in the world should mely into empathetic like "Oh, poor captive....probably got at least an era down there before the other one's grace returns".

    Ok, enough cats out of bag, but I believe these walls would add much, and are really the main hook in the scene (to me). How to get them is what pushed me to present this to you. I guess that's what a wide glass would do, hat Cornucopia is saying?

    Now, I don't know about 3D graphics or After Effects layers to know how they would work to help this. Like build a hole from scratch? That wasn't there? Or use our same footage to stretch? Like lowering the cam into a small hole and pulling up smoothly to get the feel of surrounding walls?

    EDIT:

    - See a flat pic. No walls - https://photos.google.com/(I dunno, I can't upload...I'll keep trying)

    - Then see this stock footage. Great, but meandering, instead of a straight hole - http://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/1067527/cg-magma-vent-ii-1080p-2997.html


    I won't need to be seen by us on the way up...just an implacable PRESENCE... a continuity of my having been with him at the bottom at drop-off (which will be a normal shot like at the base of the hole, quite a wide rocky ground or sth). Then as I go up, the hole appears wider and wider....like it narrows down from top. And the vastness of the bottom we just saw will further boost the illusion of depth I'm trying to depict.

    Like...

    Scene 1: Base of pit, a darkish wide space, normal shot of two figures, A at an imposing B's mercy.

    B: "You stupid idiot, I'm hoping the worms don't finish your flesh before I'm done thinking of what to do with you!"...

    TRANSITION (e.g, I start transfiguring with some animations etc)...into...

    Scene 2: The ride....(wch is the effect I'm trying to do)


    Sorry I made it this long finally. I still count on your ideas and thank you so far. I have to read on those 3D and layers things, to know their fxning
    Last edited by Crye; 7th Oct 2015 at 21:11. Reason: more info
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  6. Last edited by jagabo; 7th Oct 2015 at 21:01.
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  7. Member
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    Awwwwgh, Jagabo! You led me to discover even more of such. People are thinking!!! Ok, here's a beer for you (I love this dude and hope I can soon make a film centered around a *InsertAdjective* population of his type) https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/proxy/BNpyq9VwWqpl-exGPO55XDPR7Ap6iDpaZ9w_xxMMP75U5w...wLkP9yqsc=s346

    Cheers!
    Last edited by Crye; 7th Oct 2015 at 21:23.
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    ..
    Last edited by Crye; 7th Oct 2015 at 21:25.
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  9. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    There are multiple ways that the shot sequence could be built. I was just suggesting greenscreen + locked subject + 2d/3dmodel bkgd with dve move all composited, as I consider that to be one of the quickest and most economical of methods. You could do models with a multiplane camera rig (or horizontal faked as vertical with a slider), or you could attempt an actual crane shot with a built set, or a dolly move with rear projection for the environment/background, or you could do it all in cgi...

    I hope for the audience's sake that your movie is not just a vehicle for this one shot, though. Not much good can come from building up around a single idea. A shot like that needs to be intrinsic and apropos to a good STORY.

    Scott
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    Of course, you did well as always, Cornucopia. Thank you. Just weighing methods.

    What is "dve"? I will need to piece out your message patiently to actually get what you mean, those moves/methods such as the "multiplane camera rig", a thing I've never heard about. But it's good to brainstorm like this...you see, all ideas are coming out that could be helpful any day.

    And oh, yes, it's a 2 (max 3 'scene') story to warn my audience. It will be welcome by a particular group I was hoping you'd figure... bc I already gave basically all the story away.
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  11. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Dve= digital video effects. Umbrella term for the various transitions and moves done electronically (now digitally) instead of optically/mechanically.
    Multiplane cam was used in elaborate 2d/cell animation to give it 3d features.

    Scott
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    Ok, thanks for your patience, man! I'll research on those now.
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  13. How realistic did you want this ? What were your expectations ?

    In general if you can do it safely, it would be better to shoot the actual thing in a well or similar structure . The lighting/shadows are important to "sell" the realism. It's difficult to do "in post" convincingly or at least it takes a lot of work


    Originally Posted by Crye View Post

    - Then see this stock footage. Great, but meandering, instead of a straight hole - http://www.pond5.com/stock-footage/1067527/cg-magma-vent-ii-1080p-2997.html
    This is not an example of a "zoom". The camera is actually moving here - do you see the distinction ?

    There are more optical limits on a real "zoom", but a dolly or tracking shot (especially if you do it in software with a software camera) doesn't have limits.
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  14. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    But dolly/tracking shots have physical/logistical (and read economic) limitations...

    Scott
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  15. I meant in a software program if he's doing a green screen and putting it on the "bottom" of the pit. The optics and "look" are different if you do a camera zoom with a fixed camera location vs. A moving camera with a fixed focal length - that's what I meant by "software camera"
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  16. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Yeah, but once you get beyond a certain distance, that perspective shift begins to even out and CAN be cheated, was what I was saying earlier. Hard to tell what the OP wants/needs in this instance.

    Scott
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  17. I guess it depends on what his definition of "very deep pit" is , or what he really wants. It's not possible to do a very long distance with a zoom - the camera is physically set in a position somewhere in the pit. It's not possible to move "behind" the camera. Also , at the ends (high and low focal lengths ,but especially at low focal lengths) there will be extreme distortions - but maybe that's what he wants - a shorter distance with distortions. Or maybe a combination. I think he's using the term "zoom" in a generic sense, not in the camera sense. If he wanted something like that pond5 footage - I think he actually means moving the camera away, in z-space.
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  18. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    Yeah, hard to tell. It could go a lot of different ways...

    Scott
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    Thank you. You're right. I was using the "zoom" in a "fast moving" sense, not to zoom lens. I always warned this particular fool saying I'd zoom them to my ghetto (that deep place), meaning the way things were going about them I was going to lose my patience and send them down there earlier than their original destiny dictated.

    Ok, I don't know how to shoot the actual in a well to produce this result, because it (motion) will not be 'endless', and where is the allowance to display this 'long' travel? BTW, I don't know why this little nice word ZAP isn't in the dictionary!! Aye, wait b4 someone here def catches the lie, I wanted to say ZAP is not in there in the sense I want! Nonsense, the cute word makes me breathe the feeling of speed. Is there a good term for such fast motion that sounds more like a sound than a word? Tks.

    Ok, That demo stock up there is sth like what I wanted...that would be an undeserved plus! Yeah, the motion doesn't need be straight as a well for e.g. would constrain us to have. I just want to make it look like after leaving subject at the bottom I transfigure/transition and then have this ride...endless ride. Can't be for real, certainly. I was instead thinking mention would be made of some kind of 'stretching' capability of the NLE, such that it can make a 10m wall for e.g. to run for 100m and still look like the camera actually rocketed through the 100m. Just anything simple would do. The action and morale/story will do the rest at this time. And it's my first ever try. You see that this demo closely fits what I wanted. So how can I shoot to, for example, run myself through this tunnel (make it darker with Fx and lightning etc..scary). Doesn't need to be so clear or for pple to see my face (what more do they want, they already saw enough of it down there as I supervised that idot's last prayer). Blur will pay that price, to make me indistinct 'legally'. That is, when I'm leaving the bastard down there I'll transfigure and you all will see me going...up....going...then vapourise or sth, and then...transition....tunnel ride (Don't forget the audience are our toys we can destroy and rebuild anytime we wake up in the morning). LOl, but well, just sth simple and easy to shoot like that, to bring this sense to a neutral viewer without further narration.

    For example, I trusted green screen cld do just about any magic [and there'll def be some 'flat' shot or sth-D to wreck things for me - just wait and see, if this thread thrives on, there'll be some further implication and that's why this all is just so crazy and interesting lol ]. So I was thinking someone wld tell me....Throw down and spread the green...jump into hole (one not too deep to swallow you and this your story)...then lie like this or lean this way...then get shot like this, this angle, that one etc. I get wraped in some green and then editing flies me anywhere I wanna go, I thought it was that easy.

    Hihi...so u agree it's never biscuits with these matters eh. That's why the guys editing all these big films we see are said to be so well paid. I recently got to contend with sth called MotionTracking in PPro CS6.. So u actually take pains and place keyframes one by one...like every other frame!!! (Correct me if I'm wrong). ..And you know the funny part, when someone is there relaxed on their couch...popcorn and a Fanta by the side..(hihi). And the only 2 things they perceive: (1) the crunching sound and (2)the creativeness (wow, this is a greeeat movie!). But...not a single idea what these boys go thru, eh?
    Last edited by Crye; 9th Oct 2015 at 06:07. Reason: clarity
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  20. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    I think before you go any further with this idea, you're going to need to do more homework on video basics. It strikes me that you cannot impart the full impact of your vision to an audience if you yourself are unclear about the differences between dolly vs. zoom vs. DVE move, for example.

    Plus, sounds more like (behind all this) rather than as a scriptic device, you've got some kind of actual grudge against a particular person/group, and it's getting kinda creepy.

    Sorry to have to say that - maybe it's a language barrier thing.

    Scott
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  21. Maybe storyboards would help.
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  22. I wouldn't use a NLE for this part. In order to see the "sides" of the pit, whipping by as the camera moves away - you need actual z-space (as in x,y,z) .

    A pretty easy way of doing it is to wrap a seamless rock or brick texture around a cylinder (ie. bend it to a cylinder shape) , composite your greenscreen footage at the "bottom." Put a camera in the "tube" and move it away (keyframe the start and end position). The sides of the "tube" will look sort of look "fake" because the textures will repeat, and not have natural randomness, but you can manually make some changes such as adding random things like tree roots sticking out that sort of thing. The reason you need it to be "seamless" on the edges of the texture is you might need to add a few instances depending on how far you want to move away at high speed. If they are not "seamless" there will be "gaps" at the joins. You could do this in after effects or blender or a 3d program (C4d Lite comes with Adobe subscription, but you said CS6, which was pre-cloud). To embellish the effect, you can add typical compositing things like lighting, shadows especially for the bottom for the 2d greenscreen footage to make your "condemned" guy look like he's really down there
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    Hmmm... well thought through, Poison. You're quite advanced. I knew it would end up in 3-D!!.. bc of those sides and the depth limitation in a real situation where I put the actor in the hole, Ok, so now that's another thing altogether. But no prob...I can't do these tings right off but I want to know HOW TO SHOOT, not edit (but to get footage right for use for such an edit). The shooting comes first, not the editing so I wrapped off everything post shooting to "magic".

    Ok so you mentioned this part "2d greenscreen footage". I should therefore coat the entire hole with green screen, maybe a hole 1.5x the actor's height maybe?
    Thank you!
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  24. Originally Posted by Crye View Post
    Hmmm... well thought through, Poison. You're quite advanced. I knew it would end up in 3-D!!.. bc of those sides and the depth limitation in a real situation where I put the actor in the hole, Ok, so now that's another thing altogether. But no prob...I can't do these tings right off but I want to know HOW TO SHOOT, not edit (but to get footage right for use for such an edit). The shooting comes first, not the editing so I wrapped off everything post shooting to "magic".

    Ok so you mentioned this part "2d greenscreen footage". I should therefore coat the entire hole with green screen, maybe a hole 1.5x the actor's height maybe?
    Thank you!

    See post #2. You have to plan how you want the effect done then shoot for it. Poor planning will mean endless reshoots and going back and forth. It has to be shot at the same angle as your intended final effect. If you want the actor looking up at the camera you need to shoot the greenscreen at that same angle. Do a low quality mock up to get a rough idea, before you commit to shooting. If you have "free" friends helping out it's not so bad to reshoot, but if you're paying for actors you don't want to reshoot a dozen times.

    Shooting in a "hole" is difficult, because the green screen will be unevenly lit (by definition, the screen won't be "flat", so lighting will hit it at different intensities) - more difficult to key nicely. You'll end up having to do a bunch of manual rotowork to clean it up . A cheap setup would be to put green screen on the flat ground and elevate the camera above. Maybe the camera/cameraman is up on a stack of crates. Be careful - safety first. Proper lighting will be the most important to get the shot easier to key
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    Haha, yes, I get your point. I just hope the 'darkness' needed in the hole will make up for the uneven green lighting, like just throw dark things/Fx in there (lol). I thought of this lighting matter so I said "spread" the green.


    "You're thinking about it backwards. First figure out how you're going to do the pit effect -- 3D graphics? After Effects layers? -- and then shoot the actor to place into the effect." --- Yes, I knew this already. That's why I aid How would you PLAN...

    Sorry I have no field experience so far.
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  26. The angle is going to be important to pay attention to - because keyed footage will be 2D, not 3D. You're compositing 2D "flat" footage into 3D elements. There is almost no room to make adjustments in post (maybe only a few degrees at most). That is why I suggest doing a rough mock up first, before shooting - so you know what angle to shoot or what angle the actor should be looking up at. Always shoot a bit extra footage just in case

    If you begin the shot close up to the actor, you need a decent key to see the edge detail properly. You can get away with putting other things like smoke/shadows etc.. to "hide" the flaws of a bad key, but the closer, the more detail you need in your early close up shot, the better your key needs to be
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  27. Originally Posted by Crye View Post

    "You're thinking about it backwards. First figure out how you're going to do the pit effect -- 3D graphics? After Effects layers? -- and then shoot the actor to place into the effect." --- Yes, I knew this already. That's why I aid How would you PLAN...
    That's why I suggested you make storyboards. How long (duration) and how far is this shot supposed to go? Get your ideas down visually. Then you (and we) will know more specifically what you're aiming for.
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    Ok, thanks guys, I understand. I will reconsider all this thread, a record I have in a .doc, and make test shots. I was hoping you'd suggest angles etc to shoot...actual info to a noob, just like Poison came clearly on the green screen smoothness concerns. I never knew, and am not still convinced that all this, including Storyboarding, would be necessary for I just needed ideas, not some stiff project. Storyboarding for e.g. is a whole new thing you want me go learn, then come back to this topic? I have a large file with tuts and advice on that, but that learning won't be so quick now.

    So you see, it's not just as you think. And the topic is so clear [How would YOU plan, Shoot, lala]. Simple as that. For example, some images just sped thru my mind as I typed... like if the hole will be too hard to get then I'll just, after the basement scene, make a transition, make those sounds and run a darker object (Jesus) in a dark/smoky background and make those crazy wavering/blurred lines etc about him with some shaking/vibration to show it moving. You know those cartoon books, how they make those contour lines that show speed or mov't.

    Elsewhere, I really do appreciate everyone as always, but let the sarcasm, which def isn't helping, not be let in. I know what I'm doing here, and the frequency of my returns here despite the kind of systems available to me is homework enough. I have multiple 1-Tera drives of information I picked back in China...full of info I gather nights...all these years. If bc I solicit your help you take all my effort and wrap it up together in some dirty bag and throw away in one sec it doesn't look like goodwill to me. See, look up...and my other threads....I like respect, peace and gratitude like that (of course it's not just about me or what I like). Not pride and hasty conclusions. It spoils everything and that's why I hate Satan...He attempts to extract the peace that is good for us at any cost. I speak Englsih well, explained this story well, and I know what I aim for. It is not a stiff formulaic project. All my projects, God willing, will be like that. Crazy, random, no set rules.
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  29. As long as you've got realistic expectations - then just have fun with it ! You're going to learn from the mistakes that you make - everyone does

    If your software camera movement is directly perpendicular to the ground plane, then just shoot it that way (ie. directly above the actor, perpendicular to the floor). Make sure you get several shots of the actor looking up at slightly different angles because of the 2D layer in 3D space limitation (you can rotate it along on z-axis no problem - because it's perpendicular to the camera, but any x or y rotation will "reveal" it as a "flat" layer very quickly). To be clear - you're not going to be moving the actual camera during that shot - that's all going to be done by the software camera.

    Plan ahead so it might be possible to combine shoots . For example if the preceding scene was in a cavern with similar lighting , then you might shoot that on the same day . Is the cavern going to be 3D or a real location? That's where the storyboarding really helps as a producer. If it was a virtual set, then it should be possible to schedule all the green screen shots bunched together either on the same day or at least over the same few days; same with other set locations. A visual "blueprint" of the entire project will help you plan your shoots when and where

    Part of the problem is you don't have the post experience , and you don't have the acquisition experience either. It's great that you're enthusiastic and have ideas, but you need to have a rough idea of what is possible in post before you attempt this. The VFX dicates the set design and how it will be shot. That's the way it's done whether your low/no budget or very high Hollywood budget.

    "Green screening" might seem a simple concept at first, but things like lighting are very very very important to get right, otherwise you're going to be wasting hours/days trying to fix things in post - this alone is a huge topic
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    Hmmm, that's deep and clearer. Thank you. Look, I know I have this long journey, I know. I know I need plan, I'm planning, that's why I asked this question. Hope you understand. How else would I plan before location? I know, man, I'll get there hopefully. Respect.

    Ok, I think I get what you mean. Now, don't see an unshakable picture. It's just a rough picture of what I've thought, and you could add to it def...

    - The ground (cavern) of the hole, that is, the bottom, will be like a dark room with stony walls. Not too hard to get, no need for CG. Basically, you should know there's mostly gloom throughout the montage. You will hardly see clear details but speech. Reddish sparks etc...figures, screaming and reaching hand out from the deep etc. At the base you will know one person is imposing bc He's bigger, maybe with wings. The other might be on knees, begging. Then the big One will transfigure after dialogue, and start kind of vaporizing, and then a transition ..into...tunnel, where we see some kind of fast moving 'stream' of him the Superior flowing through tunnel. Maybe they come in through the tunnel and so the other person is in there too. Basically, we want to be able to make something flow though a hole. If it will be vertical, we shoot for that. If otherwise, we shoot for that. The two scenes can be shot at different times...the whole story is not in the 'normal' day as we live today. It's Endtime, an imagination.

    WHAT NEXT?
    Now I will just follow the vertical from your suggestion, and I guess it won't be complicated as would be a case we want meandering like in that stock I posted. Pls correct me if I should do otherwise...

    1 - I will shoot the basement scene and have them act as to enhance transition.
    2 - Throw the actor(s) into a greened hole about 1.5x (?) their height(s). I will green the entire walls. I will hang the cam facing down perpendicular to 1st actor who is acting like he's flying/flowing or something..and then also the idiot screaming up at cam, stretching hands and crying for mercy etc. The cam will not move (so I just hang it there and order the wind stopped lol) but the actors will do the actions tilting here and there and I take enough extra footage for handles.

    Of course I'll start everything with test shots and show. I have some locations in mind.

    Man thank you so much. How long can you be patient? I hope you too learn sth off any outgoing assistance and don't let me take too much of ur time.
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