Newbie Questions on DVR Recording

[boweasel]

I have a Magnavox DVR recorder - model ZV450MW8 that has serviced us for several years. One day, about 18 months ago I set a timer recording of Mad Men on AMC. When we tried to watch it the next day I saw this big blue box come up on the screen. It read 'This program is not recordable in +VR mode. According to Magnavox it meant that I'd tried to record something that had copyright protection embedded in the signal. I shrugged and never attempted to record AMC again. Over the next months I saw the number of channels that I could no longer record continually increase. Our cable company pleaded innocence, saying they were merely broadcasting the signals provided by the networks.

When I spoke to someone at customer support at both AMC and FX, they were both emphatic that NO COPYRIGHT PROTECTION was being sent to cable providers. Just recently Fox News channel has joined the growing list of channels I can't record. Really? A news show? Its shelf life is what - 24 hours?

I don't want to pirate anything. I'd just like to be able to do with my DVD recorder exactly what I did with our old VCR - create videos that I can watch in any room of the house that has a TV and a DVD player (or a laptop), or take along to my hunting camp so I can sit down and watch the last several episodes of How To Get Away With Murder (which I can - ABC is not restricted), or Bill O'Reilly and The Bastard Executioner (which I cannot).

A friend of mine has a Toshiba recorder - model D-VR610KU. He can record anything and he proposed that the problem was not my recorder, but my cable company. I took my recorder to his house and hooked it up to his TV which gets service from DISH. Result - the channels that are unrecordable through my cable company are also unrecordable through his DISH.

My friend suggested I use Google to search for answers. Doing just that brought me to this forum - specifically this topic https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/311744-Need-a-DVD-Recorder-to-ignore-On-air-Copy-Pr...-from-Cable-TV.

That topic contained a post by usually_quiet where he asserts that 'If the anti-copy warnings are triggered during regular OTA or cable network programming, it's a mistake, but there's a good chance it's real for pay-per-view, on-demand, and premium cable channels. Check the website for the cable network to find out what is copy protected. That's how I verified that HBO really does copy-protect its offerings. That sort of jives with what I heard from AMC and FX.

What is the truth? And more importantly, what can I do? This has become so absurd that I can't even record a week's worth of Dora the Explorer for my granddaughters when they stay overnight.

[usually_quiet]

As far as I can recall, the current state of copy protection on cable:
The FCC requires local broadcasters to be marked copy-freely on both cable and over-the air. You can record copy-freely channels with your DVD recorder on whatever media you like.

All cable-only channels are eligible to be marked copy-once. Some DVD recorders allow recording copy-once channels, but only on special CPRM-compatible DVD-RW media (which is now virtually impossible to find outside of Japan). Others require DVD-RAM (harder and harder to find in the USA). My Magnavox HDD DVD recorder will only record copy-once channels on its hard drive.

Premium cable-only channels (for example HBO and Showtime) are eligible to be marked copy-never, which means they can't be recorded at all. The FCC has a list of requirements for this type of copy protection which such channels must meet. One is that they receive revenue only from subscriptions and not from advertising.

Some cable providers copy protect all cable-only channels. Some copy protect very few of them, perhaps only the premium channels. It is ultimately up to the cable service provider to decide whether to use copy-freely or the highest level of copy protection that a cable-only channel is eligible to receive, but contracts with individual channels could require the use of copy protection. I read a few days ago that Fox is now requiring some cable providers to use copy-once protection on the cable-only channels it owns.

What can you do about it? There are devices which strip analog copy protection. One member here swears by the XDIMAX Grex.

[boweasel]

As far as I can recall, the current state of copy protection on cable:
The FCC requires local broadcasters to be marked copy-freely on both cable and over-the air. You can record copy-freely channels with your DVD recorder on whatever media you like.

Okay. That makes sense - our cable company carries about 12 channels that all originate from somewhere in the southeast corner of PA. My DVD recorder can easily record all of them.

All cable-only channels are eligible to be marked copy-once. Some DVD recorders allow recording copy-once channels, but only on special CPRM-compatible DVD-RW media (which is now virtually impossible to find outside of Japan). Others require DVD-RAM (harder and harder to find in the USA). My Magnavox HDD DVD recorder will only record copy-once channels on its hard drive.

Your use of the word 'eligible' raises questions. Are you saying that channels such as USA, TNT, AMC, etc, are NOT piggybacking copyright protection onto the signal I receive? And that my cable company has a unilateral choice on whether to allow me to record those channels? Without restrictions of any kind? And without incurring penalties to them?

Premium cable-only channels (for example HBO and Showtime) are eligible to be marked copy-never, which means they can't be recorded at all. The FCC has a list of requirements for this type of copy protection which such channels must meet. One is that they receive revenue only from subscriptions and not from advertising.

I have no premium channels. We did add an additional tier years ago essentially for TCM and IFC. TCM is recordable. IFC is not.

Some cable providers copy protect all cable-only channels. Some copy protect very few of them, perhaps only the premium channels. It is ultimately up to the cable service provider to decide whether to use copy-freely or the highest level of copy protection that a cable-only channel is eligible to receive, but contracts with individual channels could require the use of copy protection. I read a few days ago that Fox is now requiring some cable providers to use copy-once protection on the cable-only channels it owns.

So once again you're telling me that the problems I'm experiencing are ALL on the heads of the cable company?

What can you do about it? There are devices which strip analog copy protection. One member here swears by the XDIMAX Grex.

Thanks, I'd heard about the Grex unit, but before I can further investigate, I'd like to know if my cable company is screwing their customers by disabling recording for channels like FX, AMC, TNT, USA. In other words, if I can persuade them that they're doing me (and others) a disservice with their selective 'do not record' policies, maybe there's no need to buy another piece of equipment.

Besides, ever since I brought my unit back from my friend's house I'm unable to get any visual representation on the TV screen from the DVD recorder. I can see it recording or playing on the little DVD panel, but nothing shows up on the TV. I know that at my friend's house I had to set the channel on the recorder to E1, but now that I'm at home, neither E1 or channel 3 allow me to see any display on the TV other than the channel my cable is set to.

[orsetto]

A friend of mine has a Toshiba recorder - model D-VR610KU. He can record anything and he proposed that the problem was not my recorder, but my cable company. I took my recorder to his house and hooked it up to his TV which gets service from DISH. Result - the channels that are unrecordable through my cable company are also unrecordable through his DISH.

Your friend's Toshiba has nearly identical guts to your Magnavox: they come from the same OEM factory. So both recorders should have the same recording reactions to the same signals. The fact his Toshiba can record off DiSH and your Magnavox cannot is bizarre. Its also unlikely that his DiSH service would have protection signals on exactly the same channels as your cable service. But stranger things have happened: it could be that your Magnavox' "brain" has lost the ability to detect protection signals and is simply locked into assuming all incoming signals as protected. This has been reported with many recorders over the years, including the highest-end Magnavox models that cost double what yours did. DVD recorders are just plain weird sometimes.

I'd like to know if my cable company is screwing their customers by disabling recording for channels like FX, AMC, TNT, USA. In other words, if I can persuade them that they're doing me (and others) a disservice with their selective 'do not record' policies, maybe there's no need to buy another piece of equipment.

Long story short, if the problem indeed lies with your cable company, don't waste your energy fuming about it: you have absolutely no recourse against them whatsoever. Three or four years ago, the FCC essentially rolled over, winked at these monopolies, and said "do whatever you want, we can't be bothered enforcing petty regulations anymore." From that point on, most cable franchises went to full-bore digital encryption (obsoleting DVD recorder and TV tuners, forcing everyone onto some kind of decoder box), time-outs on almost every channel ("press any key to continue watching this channel" alerts that ruin the viewing/recording experience) and applying "Copy-Never" protection to many channels they are technically prohibited from locking out. When you call to complain, they either feign complete ignorance or snarl at you to go scratch yourself if you don't want to pay for their subscription recorder/decoder box.

As usually_quiet suggested, the only workaround is to buy a filter unit like The Grex to connect between your decoder box and dvd recorder. There is no way to avoid this expense: even in the rare case of a cable company responding to a complaint and dropping the recorder lockout signal, the relief is only temporary- weeks or months later, the problem will re-occur thru their ineptitude or malicious intent. You can't win unless you spend money to outfox them.

ever since I brought my unit back from my friend's house I'm unable to get any visual representation on the TV screen from the DVD recorder. I can see it recording or playing on the little DVD panel, but nothing shows up on the TV. I know that at my friend's house I had to set the channel on the recorder to E1, but now that I'm at home, neither E1 or channel 3 allow me to see any display on the TV other than the channel my cable is set to.

Are you sure the cable box picture is feeding thru line E1 on the Magnavox and back out to the TV line input? Or is the TV pulling the cable signal from its antenna connection to the Magnavox? Double check that the TV is set to the Magnavox line connection, not "RF" or "Antenna." If you're certain you can see the cable box thru Magnavox E1, but not any recorder displays or DVD playback, there is something amiss in the Magnavox circuitry. Check if the unit is perhaps stuck in VCR mode instead of DVD: vcr mode disables most onscreen displays and of course the dvd output. If stuck, try a factory reset per your instruction book, or unplug the power cord for an hour and try again. Maybe pull all the wires and reconnect everything from scratch.

On the off chance you might have switched from standard composite RCA video wire to multi-pin S-Video wire (or vice versa) after bringing the Magnavox home from your friend's place, try the other type of video wire and see if you get normal operation with the TV. Magnavox recorders have a special setting buried in their display menu that needs to match the type of video wire you have connected: if they don't match, you don't get a picture from the unit (but should still get sound).

[usually_quiet]

Your use of the word 'eligible' raises questions. Are you saying that channels such as USA, TNT, AMC, etc, are NOT piggybacking copyright protection onto the signal I receive? And that my cable company has a unilateral choice on whether to allow me to record those channels? Without restrictions of any kind? And without incurring penalties to them?

Yes, your cable company can use copy-once protection on any cable-only channel or leave it copy-freely, barring a contractual obligation to the entity which owns channel to copy-protect the channel. There is an article here explaining what is happening with Fox's channels.

I have no premium channels. We did add an additional tier years ago essentially for TCM and IFC. TCM is recordable. IFC is not.

Apparently your DVD recorder either does not support recording copy-once channels or requires you use the very difficult to obtain CPRM-compatible media I mentioned.

Some cable providers copy protect all cable-only channels. Some copy protect very few of them, perhaps only the premium channels. It is ultimately up to the cable service provider to decide whether to use copy-freely or the highest level of copy protection that a cable-only channel is eligible to receive, but contracts with individual channels could require the use of copy protection. I read a few days ago that Fox is now requiring some cable providers to use copy-once protection on the cable-only channels it owns.

So once again you're telling me that the problems I'm experiencing are ALL on the heads of the cable company?

Contractual obligations to other corporate entities aside, yes.

Thanks, I'd heard about the Grex unit, but before I can further investigate, I'd like to know if my cable company is screwing their customers by disabling recording for channels like FX, AMC, TNT, USA. In other words, if I can persuade them that they're doing me (and others) a disservice with their selective 'do not record' policies, maybe there's no need to buy another piece of equipment.

Your cable company has the right to copy-once protect those channels, and is under no legal obligation to support the use of third-party recording devices at this point, except possibly CableCARD devices like TiVo and CableCARD tuners for the PC. If you complain it is likely that they would suggest that you could solve your time-shifting issue by renting one of their DVRs or using their video-on-demand service.

[boweasel]

Your friend's Toshiba has nearly identical guts to your Magnavox: they come from the same OEM factory. So both recorders should have the same recording reactions to the same signals. The fact his Toshiba can record off DiSH and your Magnavox cannot is bizarre. Its also unlikely that his DiSH service would have protection signals on exactly the same channels as your cable service. But stranger things have happened: it could be that your Magnavox' "brain" has lost the ability to detect protection signals and is simply locked into assuming all incoming signals as protected. This has been reported with many recorders over the years, including the highest-end Magnavox models that cost double what yours did. DVD recorders are just plain weird sometimes.

The one important factor that I failed to impart is that his unit is about 2 years older than mine. There's probably an excellent chance that his unit did not come equipped with the same unremovable copyright detector chip that mine has.

As usually_quiet suggested, the only workaround is to buy a filter unit like The Grex to connect between your decoder box and dvd recorder. There is no way to avoid this expense: even in the rare case of a cable company responding to a complaint and dropping the recorder lockout signal, the relief is only temporary- weeks or months later, the problem will re-occur thru their ineptitude or malicious intent. You can't win unless you spend money to outfox them.

The Grex unit sounds like a winner. Hopefully it'll not require an engineering degree to hook up. And I'll be able to copy those old Disney VHS movies of my wife's friend to DVDs for our granddaughters.

And BTW, I'd apparently accidentally hit a button on my cable remote under the heading picture-in-picture that was labeled Video Source. Once I pressed that button while the recorder was powered on, the problem with the unit not being recognized by the TV disappeared.

[theewizard]

A friend of mine has a Toshiba recorder - model D-VR610KU. He can record anything and he proposed that the problem was not my recorder, but my cable company. I took my recorder to his house and hooked it up to his TV which gets service from DISH. Result - the channels that are unrecordable through my cable company are also unrecordable through his DISH.

your recorder would not record at your buddies house, but his would
you need a new recorder, some software glitch has caused a malfunction,

[boweasel]

A friend of mine has a Toshiba recorder - model D-VR610KU. He can record anything and he proposed that the problem was not my recorder, but my cable company. I took my recorder to his house and hooked it up to his TV which gets service from DISH. Result - the channels that are unrecordable through my cable company are also unrecordable through his DISH.

your recorder would not record at your buddies house, but his would
you need a new recorder, some software glitch has caused a malfunction,

Of the approximately 155 channels that I currently receive from my cable provider, I can record all but 9. You are the first responder on this forum to suggest that recorder has malfunctioned. Magnavox has already confirmed that my unit does contain a chip that will thwart recording of shows whose signal contains copy protection.

This inability to record began about 1.5 years ago with AMC. Some months later I had the same problem with FX, followed by TNT, Fox Movie Channel, VH1, USA, Fox News and a couple others. This didn't happen all at once, and nothing new has turned unrecordable since Fox News a few months ago. I've been working on the assumption that this chip is responsible.

Does anyone else echo the sentiments of theewizard?

[theewizard]

i agree, the CHIP aka programing is the problem
if you want to record, those channels, you need a different recorder
you can get a PVR and external usb drive combo (2 pieces) for less money than a new recorder
and chances are it will record everything you want to record

[usually_quiet]

Your friend's Toshiba has nearly identical guts to your Magnavox: they come from the same OEM factory. So both recorders should have the same recording reactions to the same signals. The fact his Toshiba can record off DiSH and your Magnavox cannot is bizarre. Its also unlikely that his DiSH service would have protection signals on exactly the same channels as your cable service. But stranger things have happened: it could be that your Magnavox' "brain" has lost the ability to detect protection signals and is simply locked into assuming all incoming signals as protected. This has been reported with many recorders over the years, including the highest-end Magnavox models that cost double what yours did. DVD recorders are just plain weird sometimes.

The one important factor that I failed to impart is that his unit is about 2 years older than mine. There's probably an excellent chance that his unit did not come equipped with the same unremovable copyright detector chip that mine has.

I have a DVD recorder made in 2005 which is supposed to react to analog copy protection flags (and did a few times), so the age of the recorder is not truly a factor.

The only method way I know of to accurately determine if these channels are copy protected is to look at the 2-byte CCI flag (Copy Control Information) for the channel. If that isn't 0x00, then some kind of copy protection will be applied to the cable box's analog video output. Cable boxes have a hidden diagnostics screen that displays the value of the CCI flag (and other information) for the channel the box is currently tuning. I could find instructions online for accessing that menu which worked for the cable box model Comcast issued to me. Maybe you can find the instructions for yours as well.

[boweasel]

i agree, the CHIP aka programing is the problem
if you want to record, those channels, you need a different recorder
you can get a PVR and external usb drive combo (2 pieces) for less money than a new recorder
and chances are it will record everything you want to record

So, just to clarify... you do not believe that my unit is defective? And that a device such as the Grex stabilizer should enable me to record those channels that are now copy protected?

[orsetto]

The one important factor that I failed to impart is that his unit is about 2 years older than mine. There's probably an excellent chance that his unit did not come equipped with the same unremovable copyright detector chip that mine has.

Age of the unit doesn't matter: the detection circuit is a required part of the dvd recorder specification. It is true some brands (esp Sony) were more "trigger-happy" and prone to false detection, but ALL brand-name recorders have a detector that will trigger in the presence of a properly formatted copy-once or copy-never restriction. The actual mfr of both your Magnavox and your friend's Toshiba is Funai, and believe me when I say Funai hasn't altered a singe screw in the basic internal design of these VHS/DVD units since 2007 (aside from the Toshiba having prettier cosmetics and a couple minor addl convenience features). I've actually seen far more reports from owners of the Toshiba version complain about this detector issue, so its probably just random luck in your case that your Magnavox is picking up something in those channels (perhaps a false positive) that your pal's Toshiba doesn't.

The signal system isn't well-implemented or supervised, a lot of people have issues with "protection" that shouldn't be there but apparently is. You can't even rely on the channel staff themselves to tell you the truth, because they often have no idea what's going on with their feed, and very few field techs can recognize, understand and eliminate "false positive" issues. There were nationwide howls of protest about four years ago, when several commercials in popular rotation were embedded with signal rot that triggered false copy-never recorder lockdowns during the Superbowl and other high-profile shows. It wasn't pretty.

The Grex unit sounds like a winner. Hopefully it'll not require an engineering degree to hook up. And I'll be able to copy those old [...] VHS movies of my wife's friend to DVDs for our granddaughters.

Hookup is simple, I believe it even comes with the extra A/V cord. You just unplug your Magnavox from the yellow-red-white cord coming from your decoder box, plug that cord into the Grex yellow-red-white INPUT, then use the second A/V cord to connect the Grex yellow-red-white OUTPUT to the INPUT you were using on the Magnavox. Power up the Grex, and you're done. The unit functions automatically.

And BTW, I'd apparently accidentally hit a button on my cable remote under the heading picture-in-picture that was labeled Video Source. Once I pressed that button while the recorder was powered on, the problem with the unit not being recognized by the TV disappeared.

Told ya it would be some simple goof-up. Happens to the best of us- its embarrassing how many times I've cursed my gear for losing a picture, until I realize I've plugged the video cable into an audio input (mind you, I've been working with this stuff since 1980).

[usually_quiet]

i agree, the CHIP aka programing is the problem
if you want to record, those channels, you need a different recorder
you can get a PVR and external usb drive combo (2 pieces) for less money than a new recorder
and chances are it will record everything you want to record

So, just to clarify... you do not believe that my unit is defective? And that a device such as the Grex stabilizer should enable me to record those channels that are now copy protected?

theewizard is suggesting that you use something other than a DVD recorder. Most of the devices he is talking about are shipped direct from China, so returning defective units is costly even if the seller accepts returns. For that reason I do not personally recommend any of them, but these have been promoted by other members at this website.

This is one example: http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Cloner-need-Capture-streaming-videos/dp/B00TF9MCXU

This is another example that allows setting multiple timers like a DVD recorder: http://www.ebay.com/itm/271434863079?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AME...c=1&rmvSB=true

There is supposed to be cracked firmware available for these that bypasses HDCP, which is illegal, but bypassing HDCP is necessary to record the HDMI output from a cable box. Without the cracked firmware, you need an HDMI splitter which removes HDCP as a side effect. I used this one at one time to record with a PC capture device.

I have recommended this device, sold in the USA, to people who want a stand-alone (no PC needed) HDMI recording device: http://www.amazon.com/AVerMedia-EzRecorder-Tuners-Capture-ER130/dp/B00LAP3GC8 The drawback is that it has only one timer. I have not used this device, but it is made by a reputable company and can be returned if there is a problem. You would need the splitter above to bypass HDCP. The manufacturer physically changed the device so the cracked firmware does not work anymore.

HD capture via HDMI does work (I have done it on a PC), but poses its own difficulties.

[boweasel]

Thanks everybody. I'd already decided to go with the Grex until theewizard intimated that my unit's failure to record was a malfunction and that I should buy a new recorder.

Now that I feel confident my Magnavox is not 'broken', I'm back on board with the Grex. I'll order it next week and report back with the recording status after I set it up.