Help in connecting an old TBC to VCR.

[system-35]

Hi all, hopefully I have posted this in the right sub-forum if not apologies in advance.

I have recently moved to a new house and have found various old audio equipment in the attic, and one very old rack mount Digital Time Base Corrector (For-A FA410P). Since I’ve now fully moved in and have some spare time, I thought I would try and get this unit working and digitize my old home videos I have on VHS tapes, which I tried doing a few years ago but gave up due to macrovision issues.

Unfortunately this unit is so old there are no documentations available anywhere online. Only found this info on the For-A company website: Timeline 1981 “FA-410P (Time Base Corrector) considered the best time base corrector on the market”

The good news is it powers up and the fans kick in. I have a Hitachi VCR/DVD combo which I connected to the TBC via a Scart-RCA adaptor to the ‘Video IN’ BNC connector and then the ‘Video 1 OUT’ BNC connector to my PC Via RCA to a USB Capture dongle.

When the BY-PASS mode is selected on the TBC, I get the VCR video come through to my PC monitor, great, but when the NORM mode is selected there is no video playback just a white screen on PC, tweaking the Chroma Level or Chroma Phase knobs in NORM mode does have an effect and I’m seeing the white screen go to different shades of green or pink.

I have searched online but have not found much info in connecting the TBC to VCR correctly, I tried various combinations for connecting the Input and Output of the VCR to TBC and am still not seeing the vhs playback in NORM mode.

I’m hoping someone out there has had some experience in connecting this or another similar type of unit to a VCR and can shed some appreciated light.

I have included Front and Rear pictures of the TBC and Rear Outputs of the VCR.

TBC Front Panel
TBC Under Front Panel
TBC Rear View
VCR Rear 1
VCR Rear 2

Thanks and any info would be much appreciated.

[johnmeyer]

The term "time base corrector" applies to a wide range of related, but different, equipment. They are all designed to correct timing errors in analog video, but some, like the unit you have, were designed to help sync together video signals from disparate sources so that they could be fed, in real time, into a video switching console. In this application, the product is used as part of a scheme called "genlocking."

I don't know this product and, like you, I found it difficult to research on the Internet. However, if you go to the bottom right corner of page 17 in this old magazine:

SMPTE Journal 1984

you'll find a short product announcement and description. The key information is actually on the following page (p. 18). There it states:

FA-410 modified TBC: A modified version of the For-A digital time corrector that permits the use of the dynamic tracking capability of the Sony U-Matic BVU-8320 ...

... The modified FA-410 can accept the vertical signal from the BVU-820, allowing the TBC to follow the speed of the VTR.

While this describes a modified version of the product you have, it shows that the basic function is what I described above, and it looks like this modification was designed to permit other VTRs to use the slightly unstable, drifting time base from the BVU-820 as the reference signal for the other VTRs in the bay.

Also, looking at the rear panel photograph you posted I note two things: 1) all the connectors are BNC, which is typical of what you find in a professional setup where the camera and VTR signals get mixed together; 2) The rear panel input and ouput jacks have sync and pulse inputs and outputs.

It is possible that this unit could still be used for the task you envision, but I think you'll need to find out if it can internally generate the reference signal that is the basis for the "time base" part of the TBC. Even if it cannot generate its own reference signal, if you can figure out how to feed it a reference signal, you still might be able to use it as tool to clean up VHS composite video prior to digitizing.

[smrpix]

Try to send one video composite output from the deck to the ref input on the tbc. Then plug a second composite video output from the deck to video in on the tbc. That way the deck is generating the timing signal.

[jagabo]

If that works find something with better timing for the reference signal. The composite output from a DVD player might be a good choice.

[system-35]

Thank you John for your insightful reply.

I just did a quick search on Sony U-Matic VTR connecting to a TBC and found an interesting post about using RF output of a VTR to the DOC IN input of the TBC along side the usual video in cable. The post mentioned using this for "drop out compensation". I'm not sure what this will achieve for me or even if an RF out on a VCR does the same as on a VTR. Other posts I have read suggest these old TBC's will not work with " Modern" VCR's and they need old U-Matic VTR decks to function properly. But I'm determined to at least try.

Unfortunately I have run out of BNC adaptors and have ordered more. I will post back with any news once I receive them.

Thanks again.

[system-35]

Thanks Smrpix and Jagabo for the ideas, you guys could be on to something there.

I'll be trying that as soon as I get my BNC adaptors as I've run out, and I'll keep the post updated.

[johnmeyer]

The key to your quest is finding some sort of user manual, service manual, or perhaps an article in an old magazine, like the one I found. The tricks already suggested sound like good ideas, but you really need to know what those inputs are expecting to see (voltage levels, etc.). I worked for many years in Hewlett-Packard's microwave test & measurement division, and have a good generic idea of how this stuff works, but this is something where you really need to know the specifics of the equipment, and I don't have that knowledge.

Hopefully, in addition to the excellent suggestions you've already gotten, someone will have an idea of where you might find some operating instructions, even if they are generic, and not specific to this unit.

[edit]I just found this "for sale" listing:

FOR-A FA-410

and found this description useful:

"Digital TBC w/full 16 H-line corrector, designed especially for ENG & field production applicatio ns, built-in dynamic tracking, portable small size 1 built-in RS-170 sync gen "

I don't know what RS-170 refers to, but a built-in sync gen is what you want and may eliminate the need for an external sync signal.

I'm still looking for some sort of documentation ...

[further edit]RS-170 is an NTSC signal. You have a PAL unit, but there still might be something similar lurking in there somewhere.

[system-35]

Thanks John, more useful information to digest.

I emailed the A-For company UK reps late last night and have just received an email. Although they did not have the FA410P user/service manual they sent me one from a similar unit the FA400PS. Cheekily they only sent specific pages, but every little helps. The manual does indeed mention if there is no Reference Signal present the unit will automatically use the Internal Sync signal. There are also two connecting to VTR examples given and both need the RF signal from the VTR to be present too. I will include one such diagram and the FA400PS manual in my post.

p.s the VEC400 in the diagram is an optional unit.

I'm still waiting for the BNC adapters so wont be able to test further yet, but will report back asap.

[orsetto]

Other posts I have read suggest these old TBC's will not work with " Modern" VCR's

These old professional TBCs do work with VHS for digital transfer, but not necessarily as well as their "pro" status and original multi-thousand-$ price would lead you to expect. The most typical issue is age: this one could be thirty years old going by the manual date, which means many of the discrete electronics parts inside will have drifted off spec or died altogether. This leads to the video being made worse rather than better when passed thru the unit. Much depends on the condition of a particular TBC: if it was carefully maintained and serviced by previous owners, it could perform satisfactorily. If it has been sitting around unused for a decade or more, and was never serviced before that, it is likely to disappoint with VHS today. The "gotcha" with pro gear is it was designed for a business that could afford periodic maintenance: once decommissioned and sold off as cheap surplus, it often doesn't work too great for consumers. Your ancient For-A FA410P may prove to be an exception, and work quite well for you. But if not, don't be too disappointed: it is typical for these old TBCs to be dysfunctional.

Seven or eight years ago, I was a bit unhappy with the two most recommended modern "prosumer" TBCs (DataVideo TBC-1000 and AVT-8710), so I bought a succession of old pro TBCs to try out as alternatives. None of them performed equal to the modern prosumer TBCs with VHS: video tended to be washed out, blurry, and correction of Macrovision was unreliable. All sorts of pattern noise would intermittently spoil the playback. Fiddling with the controls usually made things muddier, and settings sometimes got stuck. This occurred with TBCs from For-A, I.DEN, Prime Image, and Panasonic. The best was probably the Panasonic TBC-200, but it barely managed the PQ of the DataVideo or AVT and it was inconsistent with Macrovision. Given its clumsy size and weight (picture a 12 lb pizza box), I gave up and went back to the mediocre but predictable DataVideo TBC-1000. The cliche "YMMV" applies to old pro TBCs perhaps more than any other video component.

[system-35]

I suspect you might be right Orsetto. The TBC was was in the attic for god knows how long, although sealed in a rather large box along with other mostly audio equipment. There are no service labels on the machine and I would guess it has not been used for quite some time. To be honest I did not even expect it to fire up and when it did it just excited me to see if I could get any use out of it. If I can get some VHS transfers completed then that would be great, if not then I will most likely go down the route you suggest and put the old TBC back to sleep again.

[johnmeyer]

That diagram is really helpful. Try it out and tells us what happens. Capture with and without, and then A/B the results on an NLE timeline. A proper TBC, when hooked up and working correctly, produces results that are usually markedly better than what you started with, and the differences are often not subtle. Thus, you shouldn't have much trouble figuring out whether your unit was cooked in the attic, or whether it is still viable.

[system-35]

**UPDATE**

I eventually managed to find time to play a little more, but the results are not as I hoped.

Connected the VCR and TBC as per diagram and still no video, used the suggestions mentioned above and still no video. I then opened the TBC and found a loose cable and a chip (possibly memory chip) that was not seated correctly, put them both back in and success. Although the video is being processed the colour is way off, actually non existent, it's just a strange grey haze over the whole picture. Adjusting various settings changes the video slightly but the grey haze remains and switching to "MONO" mode gives a black and white picture with colour flashing in and out.

Strangely switching to SECAM gives me colour but the picture is not right due to my tapes being recorded in PAL. I can only assume the loose chip has been damaged or as Orsetto mentioned some electronic component has died or drifted off spec. I tried giving a another input signal to "REF IN" and feeding the "RF" in too but this had no effect.

There are tons of little "gain adjusters" on the input and output boards that control contrast, hue, chroma and various other things but without a service manual its a blind guess if I'm turning the right way or making the issue worse. It looks like I've reached the end of the road with this unit unless I can find a service manual but that seems very unlikely.

Thank you to everyone for their help and any more suggestions will be much appreciated.

[orsetto]

Unfortunately, that hazy, nearly monochrome picture that can't be improved by adjusting any controls is the typical result one sees with these older "pro" TBCs. Often this is due to some of the many, many discrete capacitors having dried out or dislodged with age: in your case this is also coupled with loose or damaged chips. The service manual won't help fix this via trim pots alone, but might explain how to calibrate the unit after recapping the boards and remounting the chip(s).

Such extensive repairs are not usually worthwhile unless you're an avid DIY electronics hobbyist with a well-equipped bench. If its the kind of thing you do for fun anyway, and you already have many parts and tools, what the heck: you might succeed in repairing it. But its not a project I'd recommend for the Average Joe who has other things they want to do with their time. The still-available-new AVT-8710 (aka CTB-100 in PAL countries) is a more practical TBC option for VHS, and does have some ability to adjust color etc.

Given the tricky nature of second hand TBCs, many here eschew them altogether in favor of using an old dvd recorder in pass-thru mode (connected between VCR and digital capture device). Most dvd recorders have an always-on video signal conditioner applied to their default line inputs, which helps reconstruct VHS signals in ways similar to (or better than) a "true" TBC. They can be a decent substitute for a "real" external TBC, depending on the tapes and the sensitivities of your encoding device (hyper-sensitive encoders may require a full-bore TBC). The most popular recorders for this task are early Panasonic models DMR-ES10, ES-15 and ES20. The ES-10 is especially strong and a whiz at fixing badly distorted VHS, the ES-15 and ES-20 are less effective with terrible tapes but useful with average tapes. Models from Philips or Toshiba will work almost as well. A recorder with broken DVD drive can be had fairly cheap from eBay (the broken drive does not impair passthru functionality). "Old" dvd recorders are not nearly as ancient as most pro TBCs: much less chance of decomposed capacitors (maybe just a power supply cap or two). The best recorders for passthru were mfd between 2004-2008. Before 2004, many (esp Pioneer, JVC and Sony) had weak processing of VHS. After 2008, brand choices and circuit quality declined, although some Philips/Magnavox/Toshiba units (made by Funai in later years) have had good writeups here regarding their passthru abilities.

[system-35]

Yes it was as you suspected Orsetto, old dying components. I think I will leave it be and put the old TBC back to sleep, it was still fun trying to get the unit working but my electrical knowledge is quite limited so I will not attempt any further experiments.

Thanks for the info regarding the pass-thru option on the DVD recorders, sounds very interesting. I think I will search for some on ebay and take it from there, at least I now know which models to look out for. If all else fails then the CTB-100 will be next on the list.

Just one question, will the DVD recorders eliminate macrovision in pass-thru mode from old home VHS tapes. I believe my the old tapes are falsely triggering macrovision when I try to capture them due their bad quality.

Thanks again.

[orsetto]

Just one question, will the DVD recorders eliminate macrovision in pass-thru mode from old home VHS tapes. I believe my the old tapes are falsely triggering macrovision when I try to capture them due their bad quality.

It depends on the tapes, really. If they actually do have true Macrovision on them, this won't be corrected by a pass-thru recorder (since all recorders are engineered to obey protection signals despite any other video correction they supply). You would need the CBT-100 or perhaps something like The Grex (which is half the price of the CBT-100). The Grex type of unit specializes in correcting the damage caused by Macrovision and other "protection" schemes, but isn't optimized to correct general-purpose encoding issues like the CBT-100 usually can. I say "usually" because in the past year or so I have seen reports from "pro" technicians that the CBT-100 (and its various clones) is not quite the 100% capable TBC its been marketed as. Evidently, when used with certain tapes and certain encoding devices, it scrambles the "dropped frames" correction it is supposed to apply. The likelihood of this impacting any particular user is small: the point is no single TBC box will be completely effective for all users.

If your Macrovision issue is strictly related to false positives triggered by poorly-recorded tapes you made yourself from broadcasts or camcorders, a dvd recorder passthru might be able to fix it. Some recorders have the same sensitivity to false positives as PC capture cards, so they would pass on the error. Other recorders routinely repair such false positives during pass-thru. Since each tape that generates a false positive is different, it would be impossible to recommend a specific recorder: you would need to test for yourself and see what happens.

When you last attempted your tape dubbing project, did you have any other encoding issues besides real or false Macrovision? Any problem with dropped frames causing audio sync disruptions? Any problems with severe geometric distortion (flagging or washboarding on vertical objects in the picture)? If not, and your only difficulty was Macrovision, I'd recommend you just get The Grex from Amazon and forget about a TBC or recorder passthru. The Grex is a simpler, more predictable device that is guaranteed to repair real or false Macrovision, while a TBC or recorder passthru is more helpful with framesync, dropped frames and picture distortion. Each device helps with various issues in different ways, although there is some overlap.

[system-35]

All the tapes I have are either broadcasts or home camcorder movies and the only issue I ran into last time was Macrovision I believe. There was no flagging or washboarding and only a few dropped frames on really old tapes.

Admittedly I am using a very cheap USB capture device given to me by a friend who used it to capture off of a VHS camcorder without any issue, he has since sold the camcorder. I tried the said USB device with my DV camcorder and my son's PS3 via composite IN and the captured video was very good. I also tried two different VHS/DVD combo units and the results were the same.

All this is leading me to believe the bad tapes are triggering Macrovision.

Here are a couple of screenshots so you can see what I'm up against. The horizontal green stripes, which are pink on some tapes, flash in and out at random intervals. All these tapes play fine, with no colour streaks, when going straight into a TV set from the VCR's.

Thanks.

[orsetto]

Are these screen caps the full extent of your "false Macrovision" problem? Is it purely this visual contamination, or are you also getting refusal-to-record alerts from the USB dongle (i.e. "cannot record protected material" or some such). Recording interruptions would probably necessitate a Grex or other add-on, the color flashes on their own might be responsive to several hardware combinations. A passthru method that was once very popular here on VH was to connect a VCR to the line inputs of a DV camcorder like yours, then connect its DV 1394 FireWire output to a computer or capture device with DV 1394 input. Apple Mac computers usually have DV 1394 connections, although this got more complicated in recent models made since 2012. Ask around to see if you know anyone who has a slightly older Mac with a FireWire 400/800 DV port: if so, you could try the camcorder passthru trick and perhaps it will fix your tape issues. Worth a shot, since you already have the camcorder.

Green, pink and magenta color flashes, esp near the top or bottom of the frame, are a common annoyance encountered with playback of old (15+ years) VHS tapes (more so if they are second generation copies from other tapes). The issue is often traceable to mistracking in the original VCR creating tapes that can't be fully compensated when other VCRs play those tapes some years later. Normally you would see the color flashes during straight-to-TV playback, as well as in digital transfers. The fact you are only seeing them thru the digitizer means they might be curable via passthru dvd recorder, TBC, and/or Grex. It might also help to try a couple other brands/models of VCR: there's plenty to choose from on Craigs List and eBay. When I discover a tape with this problem, my go-to cure is to play it in my last remaining functional Panasonic AG-1980 VCR (a long-discontinued, quirky, unreliable model with amazing ability to fix color issues via built-in "TBC" and noise reduction circuit). Other similar VCRs were sold by JVC and Mitsubishi, but they are pricey second hand and a tricky buy unless you know how to evaluate condition (high-end used VCRs are a minefield as risky as old professional TBCs).

[system-35]

Yes these screen caps represent my only issue when trying to capture, I have not had any "cannot record protected material" type message come up at all. There were a few times the capture screen went blue, but this was when a chewed part of the tape was playing. Unfortunately my Sony Mini DV camcorder only has Video OUT otherwise I could have tried that suggestion.

Having searched on Ebay UK I have found a few Panasonic DMR-ES10's that you mentioned earlier at a reasonable price, so I think I will start with that first. I'm also hoping to borrow another VCR from a family member soon to see if the issue persists. If I'm still getting these colour flashes then i'll look into the Grex image stabilizer you suggest.

After my first attempt trying to capture, and failing, I did read up about VHS captures, Macrovision and TBC's and it all seemed very overwhelming and expensive to try and figure out the root cause of the issue. Finding the old TBC just stirred up my interest again.

[orsetto]

Yes these screen caps represent my only issue when trying to capture, I have not had any "cannot record protected material" type message come up at all.

Then I would say we can't categorize your problem as "false Macrovision," because the most irksome symptom of that is false "cannot record this program" lockouts. Good to know, because it narrows things down a bit while also keeping your options open. This means you don't actually require the specific signal reconstruction features of a TBC or Grex that address MV issues. You can try one if all else fails, but you can start with cheaper or more general purpose alternatives.

I would definitely look to borrow at least two other VCRs first- issues like this are frequently reduced by using a VCR more playback-compatible with your tapes. A Panasonic ES-10 passthru may or may not help: its effect on overall video performance is highly subjective, with some here saying it is 100% transparent and others saying it muddies colors and clarity so should only be used to cure severe flagging. Worth a try, if you don't overpay you could likely resell it at little to no loss if it proves ineffective with your color flashes. The Grex and CBT-100 are still sold new by dealers with refund policies, so they should be fairly painless to test out: a byproduct of their signal reconstruction might indirectly help with the flashes.

You could also see if attacking the problem from the encoder end helps. It appears you're using a generic USB video accessory that is some years old. Maybe try one of the more recommended new versions in use by VH members for tape transfer, such as "Hauppauge USB Live 2."

If none of these routes proves successful, you could look around for a second-hand Panasonic NV-SF200, which was the European PAL equivalent of the North American AG-1980 I referred to earlier. The NV-SF200 had more reliable electronics than the American model, and is commonly available from sources in UK. This would be the most expensive option, with the greatest risk of not recouping the entire investment if it doesn't work. If you have a LOT of tapes with this problem, and the NV-SF200 is able to cure them, it would certainly be worth it, but be prepared for a gamble. Perhaps you could find a seller who'd be willing to come to your home for a small "tryout fee," and let you test-play one of your worst tapes on it thru your digital encoding system.

[system-35]

Thanks Orsetto, you have been very helpful and given me more insight on the best way forward. I will try to source a few more VCR's and see what happens.

Your suggestion about the USB capture device is interesting. The Hauppauge USB Live 2 is selling quite cheap so I think I will buy one and if it does not help then at least I can sell on it Ebay. I actually ruled out the USB device because the DV and PS3 captures where good quality, but it could be struggling with the poor quality signal from VCR.

I will start with these changes to my set-up then move on to the Panasonic ES-10 and Grex if they fail. The AG-1980's PAL equivalent look's like a real workhorse, but out of my price range for the moment.

[PuzZLeR]

The Hauppauge is a good device. For VHS capture, you are fine with a good USB capture device, and even a PC that is almost 10 years old today.

As per the color banding, it could likely be something in passthrough, or a setting, creating it. On my end, for example, when I would capture tapes with my JVC SR-V101US, this banding would occur when I'd set the internal TBC on. It would go bright green/teal/pink/orangy/etc, depending on the context. (Hence, I have stopped using internal VCR "TBC"s long since, for this reason, and several other reasons.)

Look at different things in your chain and settings, and remove or switch off something here and there in your experimentation.

[PuzZLeR]

Just to add to this thread:

As per TBC device, ever since I have purchased a Panasonic DMR-ES15 just over a year ago, I have been extremely happy and have forgotten about what I've used in the many years before. Other pass-through DVR units also exist, as have been mentioned before. I have never used the DvD burner capabilities of the ES15, and I don't care, nor should any others wishing to use it as a line-TBC. They are not designed for MacroVision, but correct many other tape flaws. I have not tested it though on MacroVision correction since the tapes I work on are not commercial.

I also have no need of any the internal "TBC"s of those so-called "good" VCRs, whether they are line-based, or field-based, or half-frame based. They cause more harm than good, ex: color banding, added jitter to video, bad quality on some tapes, bad dots, wrong field order, and others. And they won't remove any MacroVision either.

I used to have a DataVideo TBC-1000, which is a full-frame TBC, and although it did so some good work, and can be reportedly solid on MacroVision correction, it softened the video too much for my liking.

I also still have an AVT-8710, also a full-frame TBC, which can be effective on MacroVision according to reports. And it has done some work over the years on some tape flaws for me, however I've tired of its never-ending flakiness (criss-cross pattern, over-heating, "morphing", etc) and have moved on. Reports on its Q/C just keep getting worse and worse too if purchasing a current new unit.

If anyone needs MacroVision removal, and already using a DVR pass-through, then the TBC-1000 and/or the AVT-8710 will then be -IMO- just over-priced MacroVision units. I'd suggest just adding a Grex to the chain if that's the case. If that's still too expensive for some, there are those "digital video stabilizer" units that have been selling on eBay for many years for very cheap - maybe someone can chime in on their quality.

Oh, and in the year+ since I've gotten the ES15 I have not even used the AVT-8710 once. I'm not kidding, just look carefully at the dust it's accumulated since.

[system-35]

Thanks for your input PuzZLeR some interesting information there.

It seems many people are happy with the ES10/15 as a passthru device. I will definitely get one if the borrowed VCR's and the Hauppauge USB device do not make any difference, and then move onto the GREX.

As for checking settings, I'm going straight from a non fancy DVD/VCR combo into my generic USB capture device. The VCR has just has one setting that is adjustable : Soft or Sharp picture (same colour issue with either selected). The USB device has zero settings that are adjustable.

I'm hoping a different VCR or the Hauppauge USB will make the difference I need.

[orsetto]

I also have no need of any the internal "TBC"s of those so-called "good" VCRs, whether they are line-based, or field-based, or half-frame based. They cause more harm than good, ex: color banding, added jitter to video, bad quality on some tapes, bad dots, wrong field order, and others.

Agreed, which is why I rarely use my "fancy" Mitsubishi DVHS or JVC SVHS anymore. Whatever genius came up with the terrible idea to couple the TBC to the noise reduction circuits should have their engineering degree rescinded. Over hundreds of tapes, I have found 95% of the time DNR by itself would solve all my problems, but the TBC gets dragged along and ruins it. I've never understood why only Panasonic had independent on/off for the TBC, its a godsend because the DNR alone is usually powerful enough to avoid using any additional passthru boxes. This is why the NV-SF200 and AG-1980 are still so desirable, although I do wish the NTSC AG-1980 had the more reliable guts of the PAL NV-SF200.

My experience of the DataVideo TBC-1000 and AVT-8710 (CBT-100) mirrors yours: when they're in the mood to work, they suffice, but just barely. More often than not, they have temper tantrums that render them useless. I get better results using the DNR (sans TBC) in my AG1980, unfortunately it is slowly dying on me and I refuse to spend what it would cost to restore (been there, done that, it doesn't last).

Much appreciate your confirmation that the Panasonic ES-15 makes an excellent passthru: one rarely hears about anything beyond the overexposed ES-10.