TS_folder DVD from low quality source: use same bitrate?

[MovingParts]

Hi,

I have some animation files, that come e.g. in AVC (Baseline@L1.3, 1ref frames), 225 Kbps, 25fps, 300x240 (5:4).
Another is AVC (Baseline@L2.1, 1ref frames), 260 Kbps, 25fps, 484x272 (16:9)...

I found this very helpful http://www.avidemux.org/admWiki/doku.php?id=tutorial:converting_to_dvd

QUESTION LEFT:
if the AVC file is 225kbps, does it make any sense to set mpeg2 to 8mbps video for the DVD? Would using 225 kbps further degrade the quality or is it merely like just converting the file to mpeg2?

Thanks!

[Baldrick]

If you use 225 kbps for mpeg2 it will look like crap. Because AVC/h264 handles lower bitrates much better than mpeg2.

Use 8mbit if you don't need to fit 2-4 hours/dvd.

[MovingParts]

I knew h.264 reaches far better results at a much lower bitrate, but I was wondering, if it makes any sense upping the bitrate for DVD-mpeg2, when the source is already a very low bitrate h.264 file.

Another last question, the guide talks about choosing MPEG PS A+V. I know I had this option on an older version of Avidemux. No wthere is just "mpeg-PS-muxer (ff)" will it automatically join v+a?

[manono]

I knew h.264 reaches far better results at a much lower bitrate, but I was wondering, if it makes any sense upping the bitrate for DVD-mpeg2, when the source is already a very low bitrate h.264 file.

Baldrick already answered that question. Yes, maybe double the average bitrate for the same resolution and choose a suitably high max bitrate. And, since neither of the two resolutions you mentioned in your first post is legal for DVD, if you increase the resolution make sure to increase the average video bitrate by an equivalent amount over your already doubled bitrate. Since your sources are crap, the end result DVD will also be crap. You want to keep the DVDs from looking even worse.

I can't answer the second question as I don't use AviDemux.

[MovingParts]

PS: ok I see a lot of things have changed in 2.6.6 since the guide was written.

Do PAL-DVDs nowadays support AAC (ff or lav)? I read mpeg sound is a problem for NTSC, but PAL can play PCM, AC3 and mpeg audio. Would it be better to just use PCM to be sure it plays well?

OK, Avidemux already gave me a notice "can't mux, for DVD: use mp2/AC3 or DTS audio"

But here it explicitly mentions PCM as usable https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/122288-AC3-Quality-vs-MP2-and-Why-Does-MP2-Not-Always-Play

OK, an bitrate again. for mpeg2 (ff) I chose avrg bitrate 8000kbps (under "basic settings"), but when I chose constant bitrate 8000kbps, the resulting file has the same 2525 Kbps for video (both "mode: variable").

I suppose no one will help me because I have no log that I posted. I will do so later, but I think it will only create confusion, since I did several other encodes before that.

And again a question here https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/122288-AC3-Quality-vs-MP2-and-Why-Does-MP2-Not-Always-Play they say iDVD (as authoring tool, I could use Toast8, though) uses PCM, so how is that gonna work, if:
- PCM is not muxable (PAL DVD)
- the guide http://www.avidemux.org/admWiki/doku.php?id=tutorial:converting_to_dvd speaks of two methods. 1. creates a file which has both v+a and can be used to author, 2. is creating v and a seperately first and then muxing it. If Avidemux 2.6.6 doesn't offer to create seperate A and V, how can I for example use Avidemux to get the video track and then maybe just copy the source AAC and let iDVD convert the audio to PCM?

[Kerry56]

Why not use AVStoDVD to convert to PAL DVD? Use the HC encoder with a two pass encode and see if the result suits you. It will give you AC3 audio in the default settings, though there are other options.

[MovingParts]

Thank you that your are willing to help me without uploading my log first! (Edit: I confused two threads, I was asked for a log file in another thread and forum. In case one wonders, what I am referring to)

Unfortunately I need an App that works on my Mac. AC3 is not the problem. I can just choose that in Avidemux, too. There is just some confusion mainly coming from:
a) that people say PCM should work
b) others say PAL doesn't support PCM
c) iDVD creates only PCM (but then again it creates PAL, as people said) <-- I have to check that, iDVD needs ready made mpeg2 it seems. I can test that, when I am through with Avidemux.
d) Toast does offer PCM and DolbyDigital (i.e. AC3), again so PCM must be usable, it doesn't say anything about NTSC or PAL, but since my GUI is German I suppose that version of Toast creates PAL

To get one file that includes V+A it is no problem using Avidemux, I can choose mp2 or AC3 (when choosing PCM it will say can't mux, though the guide here says LPCM is compatible).
So anyway, I will get to one file A+V (however I wanted to use PCM, because people said, it is that what every set top player will eat, while some few refuse AC3 or mp2)

Only, if I want to have video seperate and want audio as a pass through (AAC) and then in a second step let iDVD (as said in the first link) encode the AAC track to PCM, 16bit, stereo.

---
I have another idea. Mpegstreamclip handles v+a seperately, it doesn't support mpeg2, though, so I could use it to encode AAC to PCM. Then use this file and the mpeg2 video file I created with Avidemux to mux a DVD-compliant mpeg2-V+A-file.
Sorry, this all probably doesn't make any sense to you all anymore, since I am writing so much and confusing you.

----
on 2.6.6 the calculator doesn't work... but anyway.

[manono]

a) that people say PCM should work

It should and it does. Make sure the bitrate and sample rate are in spec:

https://www.videohelp.com/dvd

It's 48000 Hz, right?

b) others say PAL doesn't support PCM

Those people are dead wrong.

c) iDVD creates only PCM (but then again it creates PAL, as people said) <-- I have to check that, iDVD needs ready made mpeg2 it seems. I can test that, when I am through with Avidemux.

Most people use AC3 with a lesser number using MP2 for PAL. WAV audio requires a lot of bits which might be better put to use for the video and I doubt your source audio is any good to begin with.

d) Toast does offer PCM and DolbyDigital (i.e. AC3), again so PCM must be usable, it doesn't say anything about NTSC or PAL, but since my GUI is German I suppose that version of Toast creates PAL

Are you beginning to understand why this kind of work is more easily done on a PC?

...while some few refuse AC3 or mp2)

Nonsense.

[MovingParts]

I knew h.264 reaches far better results at a much lower bitrate, but I was wondering, if it makes any sense upping the bitrate for DVD-mpeg2, when the source is already a very low bitrate h.264 file.

Baldrick already answered that question. Yes, maybe double the average bitrate for the same resolution and choose a suitably high max bitrate. And, since neither of the two resolutions you mentioned in your first post is legal for DVD, if you increase the resolution make sure to increase the average video bitrate by an equivalent amount over your already doubled bitrate. Since your sources are crap, the end result DVD will also be crap. You want to keep the DVDs from looking even worse.

I can't answer the second question as I don't use AviDemux.

Thanks, I just recapulated, why I asked the question and mentioned, that I already knew, that h.264 is better quality at lower bitrate, but if it makes sense to use a big bitrate for crap, I was not sure and hence the question.
Thanks for your answer, though, it was a sort of deeper explanation.

[MovingParts]

Thank you so much!!!

a) that people say PCM should work

It should and it does. Make sure the bitrate and sample rate are in spec:

https://www.videohelp.com/dvd

It's 48000 Hz, right?

yes, it is 48kHz

On PCMs bitrate and sample rate being in spec. In Avidemux there is nothing to choose. When I choose AC3 or Mp2 I can at least choose a bitrate. When I choose PCM and I click on "configure" under it, it just does nothing, no window pops up for changes.

If I leave PCM and then hit "save" in Avidemux. It tells me "(MISMATCH), (ffPS) DVD : only mp2/AC2/DTS audio accepted" (brackets not curved).

So Avidemux doesn't support PCM (the Avidemux guide I linked, also says: LPCM, which isn't even selectable from the 2.6.6 menue (the same with iDVD and Toast, no LPCM. I can do it in iMovie, but that's not what one wants).

b) others say PAL doesn't support PCM

Those people are dead wrong.

Happy. Good to know. That makes away with some of the confusion.

c) iDVD creates only PCM (but then again it creates PAL, as people said) <-- I have to check that, iDVD needs ready made mpeg2 it seems. I can test that, when I am through with Avidemux.

Most people use AC3 with a lesser number using MP2 for PAL. WAV audio requires a lot of bits which might be better put to use for the video and I doubt your source audio is any good to begin with.

Source is VBR 128kbps AAC, 44.1kHz, stereo, 2channel. So, I guess you are saying PCM wouldn't even make sense. I in the meantime found out, that AC3 is regarded supperior to mp2 and it has the advantage of being able to create 5.1 surround sound, while PCM is pretty basic stereo.

d) Toast does offer PCM and DolbyDigital (i.e. AC3), again so PCM must be usable, it doesn't say anything about NTSC or PAL, but since my GUI is German I suppose that version of Toast creates PAL

Are you beginning to understand why this kind of work is more easily done on a PC?

Well, now after I tried it is not much hazzle on a Mac.

iDVD:
- through any file (xvid.avi, DV-avi, h.264,mov, mpeg4.mp4,...) in the first window of the menue.
- click burn. Nothing to select! (instead I didn't burn, I saved an image)
- the Application is encoding
- result, it doesn't give you options, it just say, this is what I choose for you and it is PAL-DVD compliant (see picture, mind I use a iDVD5, which is from arround 2004/5 so, newer once might have newer settings and better compression etc.).

Toast
- you choose what kind of media you want to burn (Data, disc, audio-CD, SVCD, VDVD, DVD, copy, Image,...)
- you choose DVD and hit "options"
- you are only presented what is compliant with PAL-DVD. You can choose the bitrates, and if you like PCM or AC3 (see the other pictures).

Avidemux
- auto-DVD is quiet straight forward
- it is no problem, that it doesn't grey out the other non-compliant codecs (when you google the specs. I used this table https://www.mplayerhq.hu/DOCS/HTML/en/menc-feat-vcd-dvd.html - however it doesn't say that the 1.5Mbit/s belong to PCM and AC3 and MP2 is different. Additionally I remembered from somewhere else, that one should stay at 8Mbps for video, so that no unexpected hits over the max of 9.500 occur, because there have been it seems some DVD-players that can't handle maximum bitrates form home-DVDs)
- you can alter stuff, but some things are not intuitive (for me): e.g. that 2-pass is included in "variable bitrate" and "variable quantisation". But, if I think about it, it is quiet obvious, why you don't have to do a first pass, when you choose constant bitrate, for example )
- the guide http://www.avidemux.org/admWiki/doku.php?id=tutorial:converting_to_dvd added to the confusion (since some options are missing in 2.6.6, but probably the authors wanted to make it easier and more straight forward)
------> I know have to look, if actually creating the DVD will work with the mpeg2 file (which includes V+A) that Avidemux created. I don't want iDVD or Toast to encode DVD-compliant mpeg2 a second time, right?

...while some few refuse AC3 or mp2)

Nonsense.

Well, BS from the Internet. Made my post unnecessarily long (They assumed, since PCM is so basic it will be supported every.
This https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/122288-AC3-Quality-vs-MP2-and-Why-Does-MP2-Not-Always-Play assumes it as well "low level mediaplayer" (search for "PCM, i am sure" and you will find the passage))

PS: it is interesting though, that Avidemux creates the same bitrate for video, no matter of CBR 8000kbps or VBR 8000kbps.