Using Avisynth to crop VHS capture ends up jerky wavy AVCHD.

[digicube]

directshowsource("c:\capture.avi")
Crop(8,2,-8,-8)

This is what the AVCHD video looks like. This doesn't happen if I don't use Avisynth. I'm using mutiAVCHD.

https://www.mediafire.com/?5tm4bqbbwy08plg

[manono]

You're cropping an interlaced source incorrectly. IVTC it first to make it progressive.

And how'd you come up with those crop values anyway? This is from the source? If so, where's the crap along the bottom? If not, why show us the encoded result, and did you leave out a resize line? And I'd use AviSource (if possible) rather than DirectShowSource, if I were you.

[digicube]

The file posted is the encoded AVCHD file. I'm converting DV video VHS capture at 720x480. I was cropping the overscan areas around the edges. Avisource gets error no decoder for DVSD. FFVideosource doesn't work either.
If I make the frames progressive, wouldn't I lose quality? I read that it's not advisable to deinterlace interlaced videos.

[manono]

Avisource gets error no decoder for DVSD.

Then install the Cedocida DV Codec. After that you'll be able to use AVISource on it.

If I make the frames progressive, wouldn't I lose quality?

No, you'll gain quality, a lot of it. You're performing an IVTC, not deinterlacing.

TFM().TDecimate()

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/TIVTC

[digicube]

Which DV codec is better to use Cedocida or ffdshow?

Are you recommending IVTC because the source is a commercial video? What if the source is a home movie captured using a camcorder? Would IVTC still apply?

I read its not advisable to resize interlaced video, so I guess it's better to leave the garbage around the frame edges than to crop and resize it.

[manono]

Which DV codec is better to use Cedocida or ffdshow?

I have no idea which is better. I use Cedocida and have never had a problem. And I capture a lot of tapes to DV-AVI using my Canopus box.

Are you recommending IVTC because the source is a commercial video?

I'm recommending it because your tape sample is hard telecined (3 progressive and 2 interlaced frames in every 5-frame sequence). It was originally shot on film. It should be IVTC'd back to 23.976fps for best quality results.

...so I guess it's better to leave the garbage around the frame edges than to crop and resize it.

There are differences of opinion about that. Me, I usually crop and resize. If you like, you can letterbox it and just replace what you would have cropped with black, using the Letterbox command. Or Crop and AddBorders (pretty much the same thing as Letterbox). Then there's no resize.

http://avisynth.nl/index.php/Letterbox
http://avisynth.nl/index.php/AddBorders

[digicube]

I have a Canopus ADVC110. I don't like borders/black bars.

Can you post your avisynth script for cropping and resizing interlaced videos, specifically VHS and camcorder captures.

I still get jerky video when I use no filters.

avisource("c:\capture.avi")
trim(14825,22511)

https://www.mediafire.com/?8r7ztp93g4kc7uq

[LMotlow]

Before manono has a stroke over the new sample, please understand something: we can't work with your re-encoded mistake, all we can do is play it and make guesses. If you want to sit around playing games until someone makes the correct guess that's up to you. The sample required should be an unprocessed, unaltered piece of original DV capture. If you don't know how to do that, ask. VHS capped to DV is a pain in the butt to begin with, but perhaps someone can help you clean it up.

[jagabo]

I still get jerky video when I use no filters.

Because your source is BFF and you encoded TFF. So the fields are being displayed in the wrong order.

ffVideoSource("jerky.ts")
AssumeBFF() # override the field order because it's backward
TFM()
TDecimate()

You could follow that with cropping, resizing, and any other filtering if you want. Be aware that resizing by small amounts can lead to artifacts, even with progressive frames.

TFM().TDecimate() is only appropriate for film sources with pulldown.

[digicube]

Thanks jagabo, your video is what I'm aiming for. I think my problem is getting the settings right in multiavchd.
What x264 settings should I should use for Ref frames(4), B-frames(3), Level(3)?
I noticed your video's Ref frames is 10 and has progressive frames. I would like to maintain interlacing because it retains quality.

Using your script, the video is better but if you go frame by frame, you can see half of the frames are not moving.
AviSource()
AssumeBFF()
TFM()
TDecimate()

https://www.mediafire.com/?45v26155jrdx7d3


Source video: https://www.mediafire.com/?jl14q24s0yvumy6


Edit: Looks like the video plays smoother using PowerDVD than Media Player Classic. When going frame by frame, all the frames are moving in PowerDVD. Problem solved. Use PowerDVD to watch interlaced videos. I hope it will be as smooth when played on hardware.

[jagabo]

I used the following x264 options "--preset=slow --tune=animation --crf=18 --sar=10:11 --keyint=24". That gave 10 reference frames and 5 bframes. If you want four reference frames and 3 bframes you would add "--ref=4 --bframes=3" after the preset and tune specs.

For film based material interlaced encoding will be worse quality than an IVTC and progressive encoding. But for true interlaced material you can use "--tff" or "--bff" to specify interlaced encoding (MBAFF) and the field order (bff for DV AVI). Be sure to remove the TFM().TDecimate() for interlaced material.

The reason you saw each frame twice with MPC is because it was displaying your interlaced encoding at the field rate (48 fields per second) rather than the frame rate (24 frames per second). Your video was not interlaced after TFM().TDecimate(), it was progressive and should have been encoded progressive. If your video had really been interlaced you would have seen motion in every frame. If Power DVD displayed at the frame rate you would miss half the motion and the video would become flickery/jerky.

[poisondeathray]

If this is for SD BD or SD "AVCHD" on either BD or DVD media , you need to ditch multiavchd for the actual encoding part. It was discontinued long before x264 became truly BD compliant

It doesn't have the proper switches like --blu-ray compat or --pulldown 32 or --fake-interlaced . You can't just drop in a newer x264.exe version, because the cores are so different (the switches have changed). If you choose to encode interlaced - the interlaced encoding is lower quality for multiavchd - it's missing about 100 patches for MBAFF

If you insist on using it for encoding, then you must encode interlaced, even for progressive content for SD. The quality and encoding efficiency will be worse (3:2 hard pulldown (interlaced encoding with physically repeated fields for progressive content) has 25% more repeated fields, basically wasted bandwidth, and interlaced encoding is less efficient than progressive in the first place)

[digicube]

@jagabo manono said IVTC is not deinterlacing. So wouldn't TFM().TDecimate() still keep the video as interlaced?

@poisondeathray Thanks for that crucial info on multiavcd. I didn't know it has become almost obsolete. Is multiavchd still usable for HD content like 720p/1080p? I use multiavchd for bluray authoring and avstodvd for dvd authoring. I need to google an alternative to multiavchd or find a tutorial on AVCHD authoring. Do you know any?

[poisondeathray]

TFM.TDecimate is one method of inverse telecine (IVTC) . It "reverse" the telecine and returns the original progressive film frames. So after you use TFM.TDecimate, the video is now progressive. You only use it for original film sources such as theatrical movies, tv dramas. You wouldn't use it for interlaced content , such as sports videos, home video

multiavchd can still be used for the authoring part, but the version of x264 it uses is very, very outdated. You don't want to use it to encode assets

[digicube]

Should I be using Avisynth 2.5 or 2.6? Should I use the official x264 encoder or KMod's? I'm currently looking at AVCHDCoder as a multiAVCHD replacement. Need to find another software for the authoring part.

[poisondeathray]

Should I be using Avisynth 2.5 or 2.6? Should I use the official x264 encoder or KMod's? I'm currently looking at AVCHDCoder as a multiAVCHD replacement. Need to find another software for the authoring part.

2.6

avisynth 2.6 is no longer alpha or beta. It's the main, stable, current version now

multiavchd can still be used for the authoring part (it will pass through compliant assets), just do the encoding separately. If you don't need menus, even tsmuxer would work (if you're doing SD BD with interlaced AVC encoding, and x264 only offers MBAFF)

Otherwise, Adobe Encore CS6, or Sony DVD Architect are fairly commonly used authoring programs. But Sony's muxer won't work with x264 MBAFF, only PAFF

[digicube]

Couldn't you manually swap out the x264.exe component? You can change the switches manually from within multiAVCHD.

[poisondeathray]

Couldn't you manually swap out the x264.exe component? You can change the switches manually from within multiAVCHD.

No, you can only do a simple swap of x264.exe (out of any program) with the same core revision. The core changes every few months.

If you use x264 --fullhelp it will list the core number. For example I think the current one is 146 .

To use a newer version, this would require Dean to update the application (nobody else can, because sources are not available)

[poisondeathray]

If it's too much trouble, it might be "good enough" for your purposes to use it anyway. And you might not need super strict compatibility (multiavchd isn't strict for authoring anyways, streams will get rejected by a professional validator, so the compatibility issues are sort of moot). Many players can play out of spec authored discs, yet others are very "picky" - it varies a lot by specific firmware and model

[digicube]

I want the best quality out of my SD DV captures, so I think I'll encode them outside multiAVCHD and author them using multiAVCHD because it can make motion menus automatically for me unless there is a similar program that can make motion menus automatically for me.

[poisondeathray]

Maybe TMPGEnc Authoring Works , not sure I haven't used that one. Motion menus are pretty easy to make manually


The "modern" x264 BD settings can be found here:
https://sites.google.com/site/x264bluray/home

But SD BD is slightly tricky, because consumer authoring tools such as multiavchd can't handle the --pulldown 32 (which is soft pulldown) or --fake-interlaced flags properly. Those 2 switches are required for progressive SD BD encoding (native progressive is only "legal" for HD resolutions) , otherwise you need to go the interlaced encoding route with 25% more fields (ie. forget about IVTC in the avs script, and treat everything as interlaced). But if you allocate adequate bitrate, you shouldn't see much of a difference quality wise, at least not during normal viewing conditions

[manono]

...otherwise you need to go the interlaced encoding route with 25% more fields (ie. forget about IVTC in the avs script, and treat everything as interlaced).

Exactly, so what's the fascination with making a Blu-Ray when you'll get better quality making a DVD with soft pulldown?

And if this is really The Iron Giant, why not just buy the 16:9 DVD? Way better quality.

...unless there is a similar program that can make motion menus automatically for me.

Many (most?) people make their own motion menu backgrounds.

[poisondeathray]

...otherwise you need to go the interlaced encoding route with 25% more fields (ie. forget about IVTC in the avs script, and treat everything as interlaced).

Exactly, so what's the fascination with making a Blu-Ray when you'll get better quality making a DVD with soft pulldown?

You can still use soft pulldown SD BD with AVC, you just need other authoring tools. The only free one I'm aware of that can correctly mux soft pulldown AVC is DVD Logic EasyBD Lite. Not even Encore or DVDA can do it

But I suppose some reasons are higher bitrates (even with SD MPEG2 compression on BD or even DVD media - you can use 15Mbps maxrate compared to DVD-Video's 9.8) , AVC encoding, higher capacity media

[digicube]

Exactly, so what's the fascination with making a Blu-Ray when you'll get better quality making a DVD with soft pulldown?
And if this is really The Iron Giant, why not just buy the 16:9 DVD? Way better quality.

Mainly going the SD Bluray route because it will be less disc to store. The Iron Giant tape is just for testing. The tapes hasn't arrive yet. I'm archiving a friend's tape collection, mostly home videos. I guess I don't have to worry about pulldown if I'm converting home videos and should concentrate on making an optimal avisynth script with crop and resize for home videos.

[LMotlow]

What does "home videos" mean? Do you mean tapes made with a consumer camera? or do you mean TV show/movies taped off broadcast TV? Most of the recordings will be telecined, as TV shows and new broadcast movies didn't go wholesale digital until recently, and many of the top big-budget TV hit shows use pulldown.

[digicube]

Home videos means videos recorded using camcorders for private use.

[manono]

Home videos means videos recorded using camcorders for private use.

Then you shouldn't have thrown out the red herring in the form of a movie on tape. All that IVTC stuff goes out the window and you'll need to learn something completely different - how to crop and resize interlaced video without completely messing it up.

Bob->Filter->Reinterlace

[digicube]

Sorry about that. First time doing this, didn't know there is a difference. I thought VHS are all the same. BTW, VHS, Hi8, Digital8, miniDV are all interlaced videos right? Can you post an example script to crop and resize interlaced home videos?

[LMotlow]

You really want us to give you a script with all the details and numbers without ever seeing the frames we'd be dealing with? Why are you resizing, or don't the tapes look bad enough as-is?

Crop(8,8,-8,-8)  
ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
AssumeTFF()
QTGMC(preset="very fast")
Spline36Resize(720,480)
SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4,0,3).Weave()

The display aspect ratio will be visibly altered due to resizing. Circles won't be perfectly round, squares won't be square. This could be done without resizing, but that's probably too advanced, we don't have any of the original frames for reference, and it seems like aspect ratio isn't important anyway. The Crop() dimensions shown give mod-16 frames. If you don't do it correctly, you'll screw up the interlaced fields and the colors. I'd suggest you give us a sample first.

[digicube]

Cropping to get rid of the garbage around the frames. Resizing because black bars around video don't look nice. Assuming video has no problems, there should be a one size fits all script. DV video should be AssumeBFF() right? Thanks for the script.

The change in aspect ratio would be small. Layman would not be able to notice. Manono prefers to crop and resize too.