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  1. I may have made a mistake buying the Panasonic ES-15. It is clipping the blacks, and there appears to be no way to tell it not to do that. The only options are lighter or darker. Terrible Panasonic.

    Now I am considering getting a Digital8 camcorder to capture my Video8 tapes, and also used for VCR capture. The FireWire output is NTSC DV, which is really good although it is not technically lossless. What about the Sony TRV350? Does it have an S-video INPUT? Does it have a good TBC for the VCR on passthrough?

    Thank you for your help so far.
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  2. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Dare I ask what capture device you were using ?

    Checked the spec for that camera. It has s-video input. But your VCR would also have to have s-video output and not all do have.

    Cameras AFAIK do not have any TBC features. You would require a separate TBC if you find you need one.

    An alternative (some like 'em, some loath them) for DV which does have a rudimentary TBC is a Canopus ADVC350.
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  3. A Panasonic AG-1980 and a Diamond VC500.
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  4. Member DB83's Avatar
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    Is there a DNR setting on that Panny ?

    Turning that off, if it is there, might help the blacks issue. Also the capture is not the be all and end all. Most issues can be fixed post-capture.
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  5. No, the black issue is from the ES-15. If I connect the AG-1980 directly to the VC500, that issue is not present.

    Actually, I was told that the DNR cannot be turned off in the AG-1980 anyway.
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    Have you had a look at a histogram of both captures? There's a good chance the blacks aren't really gone, they may be just below digital black (16), somewhere between 0 and 16. Could be corrected post-capture easily.
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  7. Click image for larger version

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    The blacks never go below zero. That is the output of the ES-15.
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    You better hope the blacks don't go below zero. Are you including any black borders in that histogram ? ? ? ? The ES-15 itself doesn't crush blacks unless you have the wrong IRE output settings in its setup. Or maybe you have a problem unit. I used the ES15, -10, and -20 for years, no problem with blacks. Looks like you have some clipped brights, but I don't know what your video looks like.

    Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    Now I am considering getting a Digital8 camcorder to capture my Video8 tapes, and also used for VCR capture. The FireWire output is NTSC DV, which is really good although it is not technically lossless.
    Not technically lossless. It's lossy, period. Good luck cleaning up the mosquito noise, buzzing edges, and blown out highlights.

    Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    Actually, I was told that the DNR cannot be turned off in the AG-1980 anyway.
    We know that. DB83 was talking about the ES15's DNR.
    Last edited by LMotlow; 26th Aug 2015 at 16:57.
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  9. You better hope the blacks don't go below zero. Are you including any black borders in that histogram ? ? ? ?
    Yes. Those two small vertical lines are where the black borders begin. They go below zero when I capture without the ES-15.

    The ES-15 itself doesn't crush blacks unless you have the wrong IRE output settings in its setup.
    I don't see where to change that in the ES-15's setup.

    We know that. DB83 was talking about the ES15's DNR.
    Oh. I have the Line DNR setting turned off.
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    First you complain about the behavior of the ES15, but you show us a histogram of an image that didn't go thru the ES15. The histogram shows a higher IRE (black levels, mostly dark grays) and blown-out brights. Kinda got us going in circles, dude. How about posting a short sample or some unprocessed images of similar frames, each from the ES15 work and the no-ES15 work.
    Last edited by LMotlow; 26th Aug 2015 at 22:07.
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  11. Actually, it might not be the ES-15. I am having the same problems with Premiere clipping the whites and blacks again. Also, I just realized that Premiere does not seem to support uncompressed files well. I tried importing an hour video, and it only recognized the first 2 or 3 minutes. I don't know what other format I can use other than DV that will not clip the white and black values, and will import the whole video in Premiere.
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  12. Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    I may have made a mistake buying the Panasonic ES-15. It is clipping the blacks, and there appears to be no way to tell it not to do that. The only options are lighter or darker. Terrible Panasonic.
    Keep in mind there are two high/low adjustments. One on the recording side, one on the output side. They are for compensating for the 7.5 IRE setup used by North American NTSC vs. 0.0 setup used by Japanese NTSC. Make sure you are adjusting the right one. I haven't seen the ES-15 crush blacks with a "normal" analog input. But it's always possible for some sources.

    Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    Actually, it might not be the ES-15. I am having the same problems with Premiere clipping the whites and blacks again.
    Most program use a rec.601 matrix to convert standard definition YUV to RGB for display. That will crush any Y values below 16 and above 235. If your source has levels outside the 16-235 range you need to fix that before converting to RGB for filtering or before encoding.
    Last edited by jagabo; 27th Aug 2015 at 18:38.
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  13. If your source has levels outside the 16-235 range you need to fix that before converting to RGB for filtering or before encoding.
    I don't know how to fix that. I certainly can't do it in Premiere because it's too late. The proc amp controls are only for brightness and contrast, which is not what I need. I would need to adjust the output levels.
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  14. Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    If your source has levels outside the 16-235 range you need to fix that before converting to RGB for filtering or before encoding.
    I don't know how to fix that. I certainly can't do it in Premiere because it's too late. The proc amp controls are only for brightness and contrast, which is not what I need. I would need to adjust the output levels.
    Brightness and contrast are levels controls. The issue is whether they work while the video is in YUV (where you can recover Y<16 and Y>235) or RGB (where Y<16 and Y>235 have already been crushed).
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  15. I don't understand what this 0-16 and 235-255 is all about. I am talking about whites and blacks going below 0 and above 100 IRE.
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  16. Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    I don't understand what this 0-16 and 235-255 is all about.
    You should, since once your video is digitized IRE is no longer relevant. Below is a picture taken from an article discussing the subject:

    http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/video_levels_nattress.html

    Unless your black levels go too low (0) and the white levels go too high (255), then they can be fixed later on. And adjusting the brightness (black levels) and contrast (white levels) before capping can help as well. Just understand that the settings aren't mutually exclusive - one affects the other to a degree.
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    Last edited by manono; 27th Aug 2015 at 21:06.
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  17. Sorry, double post.
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  18. Member DB83's Avatar
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    When you say 'Uncompressed' do you really mean that ?

    I do not know about Premiere but it could be a memory issue if it only reads 2-3 minutes. Even that will be 100's of gig for uncompressed video hence my question.
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    Originally Posted by DB83 View Post
    When you say 'Uncompressed' do you really mean that ?
    I guess you refer to this statement from the O.P.:

    Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    I just realized that Premiere does not seem to support uncompressed files well.
    I've seen where some flavors of PP don't work well with lossless compressors like huffyuv, Lagarith, etc. True, which is ****eyed because my AfterEffects has no problem with any of them. But every NLE can work with "uncompressed".

    IRE levels notwithstanding, VirtualDub capture can hook into a capture driver's proc amp controls, and its capture histogram can be used to adjust and monitor throughput over the RGB 16-235 range. Black borders will always hit the left side of the "red" area below RGB-16, but most of the image should stay inside the uncolored safe zone in that histogram.

    VHS doesn't handle brights well to begin with. VHS to DV will be just as bad, and likely worse.
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  20. Member DB83's Avatar
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    ^^ Correct. That is what I was referring to. And, absolutely, since there is no codec to get in the way.

    But I also guess that the OP meant lossless which is not 'uncompressed'
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  21. Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    Image
    [Attachment 33340 - Click to enlarge]


    The blacks never go below zero. That is the output of the ES-15.
    Your video shouldn't have much of anything below IRE 0 anyway. IRE 0 is defined as full black. Usually there are only over sharpening halos below IRE 0 -- which looks to be the case in your waveform graph. Maybe you should post a short sample. If you want a levels test video you can try levels.m2v file in post #100 here:

    https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-wh...=1#post1982344

    Those videos are ready to be authored to DVD.

    Video is usually digitized in YUV where Y is the brightness, U and V are the colors. With the standard rec.601 matrix Y values can range from 0 to 255 but 16 is defined as full black (IRE 0), 235 as full white (IRE 100). There shouldn't be much outside that range. When those YUV values are converted to RGB the 16-235 Y range is converted to RGB 0-255 RGB. So any pixels with Y values below 16 are the same blackness as pixels with Y=16. Any pixels with Y values above 235 are the same brightness as pixels with Y=235. If your video goes through a round trip from YUV to RGB then back to YUV any Y values outside the 16-235 range will be crushed to within that range.
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  22. Both CS6 and CC 2015 are not even able to import Lagarith properly. I have a Lagarith video that is over an hour long, and it will only play the first couple minutes of audio. The rest of the video is muted, even on export. It plays fine in VLC though. I don't know how any one else could not be having these problems.

    I don't want to have to learn how to use a new program either. I am comfortable with Premiere.
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  23. But I also guess that the OP meant lossless which is not 'uncompressed'
    I meant uncompressed. Now I am using lossless codecs, but I am getting similar problems. Premiere is not able to process the entire file correctly.
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    Originally Posted by Hypersonic1 View Post
    Both CS6 and CC 2015 are not even able to import Lagarith properly. I have a Lagarith video that is over an hour long, and it will only play the first couple minutes of audio. The rest of the video is muted, even on export. It plays fine in VLC though. I don't know how any one else could not be having these problems.
    But other users do have those problems with PP, along with other shortcomings, which is why a great many folks don't use it. At least, many don't use it for what you're doing.

    I don't usually work with timelines, but for that I use other apps with the feature that give me no problems with lossless codecs. PP is great for what it does -- which isn't everything -- and hard to beat for color correction, masking, and other stuff. But there are some things it can't do or can't do well.

    People get really complicated with timelines, not just joining and adding transitions or effects, but trying to denoise (for which PP is no contender), upscale/downscale different segments (there are better apps for that), etc.,, etc. All that stuff in one step is rough going, even for PP. Anyway, what's wrong with working with uncompressed (I don't mean losslessly compressed, I mean uncompressed). Yep, it's bigger files and goes slower.

    That reminds me, some years back I was in the PP forum looking up answers to "lossless compressors" for PP for Windows. Forum experts seemed to be clueless about what lossless compression means. PP users out there might know of lossless codecs you can use with PP, I stopped using it several years ago. You can re-compress between lossless codecs and not lose anything. Anybody know if UT codec works with it, or something like ffdshow's huffyuv? Can PP even use DirectShow codecs?

    As for the other problem, being able to read the Lagarith video but stopping after a minute: if the codec can be read at all, it should work. If the codec can't be read, you'll get nothing but error messages.
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  25. I tried using uncompressed earlier. Premiere would only import the first couple minutes of video.
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  26. Member DB83's Avatar
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    ^^ My friend above mentioned some issues with lossless codecs but you really should not have an issue with uncompressed. That is if your own system is up to it.

    Now we know nothing about that so it may well be worth it to update your profile with the relevant info.

    Since, reading between the lines, you have used Premiere before, might I now suggest, using the same device, to capture a video from VHS in mpeg2 format and see if Premiere has an issue with that.
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    I see on many forums that huffyuv and Lagarith do work with most versions of PP. Are you trying to use 32-bit codecs with 64-bit PP? I hear that this won't work. But I'm guessing. I just don't remember that much about Premiere Pro, been too long.

    What DB83 said is right: uncompressed should work fine, given enough memory.
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  28. Since, reading between the lines, you have used Premiere before, might I now suggest, using the same device, to capture a video from VHS in mpeg2 format and see if Premiere has an issue with that.
    I tried that a few months ago, and older versions of Premiere were not able to import MPEG2. However, CC was able to, but the audio was out of sync. Plus I thought I wanted to go with a lossless method.
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  29. Are you trying to use 32-bit codecs with 64-bit PP?
    I am not sure if I have the 64-bit version of Lagarith. I know that VirtualDub 64-bit is working with it.
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  30. I just converted that Lagarith file to lossless H.264 using Handbrake, and it opens correctly in Premiere. However, the H.264 bit rate is 42Mbps vs 60Mbps for Lagarith. This is after I set the profile and level on the highest setting.
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