Loseless Video Capture from Virgin Media V+ HD box

[Master Tape]

Hi all, I'm planning to capture the many hours of shows i have saved on my V+ HD box from over the years, as we're getting Virgin cut off next month when the contract ends, because it's simply costing too much when we don't really watch the cable stations that much. But i'd like to save what i've recorded, but understand there's a few obstacles. I've established what HMDI cable splitter i'm getting that strips away the HDCP signal thanks to a recommendation on another thread. But need a device that i can connect to my laptop that will capture what i have with no loss of quality and still in MPEG 2. I understand the file sizes will be very large, so i'll be transferring each programme i capture to an external hard drive. Does anyone know of any devices that will do the job?

[jagabo]

But need a device that i can connect to my laptop that will capture what i have with no loss of quality and still in MPEG 2.

That's not possible. What travels over the HDMI cable is uncompressed video. If you compress it again you will lose some quality. If you use high enough bitrates the losses may not be visible upon casual viewing. You can use lossless codecs but the file sizes will be on the order of 20 times larger than the MPEG 2 source.

[Master Tape]

But need a device that i can connect to my laptop that will capture what i have with no loss of quality and still in MPEG 2.

That's not possible. What travels over the HDMI cable is uncompressed video. If you compress it again you will lose some quality. If you use high enough bitrates the losses may not be visible upon casual viewing. You can use lossless codecs but the file sizes will be on the order of 20 times larger than the MPEG 2 source.

Oh i don't want to be compressing it again, i was under the impression that the original MPEG 2 codec that Virgin uses will be the file format that reaches the computer, with no loss of quality.

I will at some point use some of the videos for editing, but the rest i want to just lie on my hard drive like it's doing just now on the V+ box, for future viewing.

[jagabo]

i was under the impression that the original MPEG 2 codec that Virgin uses will be the file format that reaches the computer, with no loss of quality.

Not though HDMI. To get the original MPEG 2 data you have to perform a file transfer. Typically by removing the hard drive from the device and attaching it to a computer. And usually the files are encrypted so you can't use them anyway.

[usually_quiet]

But need a device that i can connect to my laptop that will capture what i have with no loss of quality and still in MPEG 2.

That's not possible. What travels over the HDMI cable is uncompressed video. If you compress it again you will lose some quality. If you use high enough bitrates the losses may not be visible upon casual viewing. You can use lossless codecs but the file sizes will be on the order of 20 times larger than the MPEG 2 source.

Oh i don't want to be compressing it again, i was under the impression that the original MPEG 2 codec that Virgin uses will be the file format that reaches the computer, with no loss of quality.

I will at some point use some of the videos for editing, but the rest i want to just lie on my hard drive like it's doing just now on the V+ box, for future viewing.

Unless you are an expert cryptologist with a lot of free time, you have little chance of ever retrieving the original data stored in the DVR. As jagabo said, the original recordings stored on the DVR are going to be encrypted. They are also possibly split into many small files that are likely to be named in a way that won't be helpful for re-assembling them in the correct order.

All an ordinary person in your situation can do is re-record the DVR's HDMI output using a capture device. Since you have a laptop, you need an external HDMI HD capture device with a USB 2.0 interface that hardware encodes, or a stand-alone HDMI HD capture device that hardware encodes and records to its own hard drive. Either way, the video will be delivered in H.264 format the audio will probably be 2-channel AAC.

Lossless capture is not an option for many laptop users, on account of the extremely large file sizes and the fact that the capture devices that could be used have a USB 3.0 interface, and do not work with all USB 3.0 controllers. Oh, I forgot that there is also one with a Thunderbolt interface.

[Master Tape]

Not though HDMI. To get the original MPEG 2 data you have to perform a file transfer. Typically by removing the hard drive from the device and attaching it to a computer. And usually the files are encrypted so you can't use them anyway.

Oh i see. Can you still capture the signal through HDMI but convert to a different loseless codec with little to no quality loss, by capturing with high bitrates? I don't want to do it through component like on Hauppauge HD PVR 2, as i hear they have 85-90% quality loss!

[Master Tape]

Oh i don't want to be compressing it again, i was under the impression that the original MPEG 2 codec that Virgin uses will be the file format that reaches the computer, with no loss of quality.

I will at some point use some of the videos for editing, but the rest i want to just lie on my hard drive like it's doing just now on the V+ box, for future viewing.

Unless you are an expert cryptologist with a lot of free time, you have little chance of ever retrieving the original data stored in the DVR. As jagabo said, the original recordings stored on the DVR are going to be encrypted. They are also possibly split into many small files that are likely to be named in a way that won't be helpful for re-assembling them in the correct order.

All an ordinary person in your situation can do is re-record the files using a capture device. Since you have a laptop, you need an external HDMI HD capture device with a USB 2.0 interface that hardware encodes, or a stand-alone HDMI HD capture device that hardware encodes and records to its own hard drive. Either way, the video will be delivered in H.264 format the audio will probably be 2-channel AAC.

Lossless capture is not an option for many laptop users, on account of the extremely large file sizes and the fact that the capture devices that could be used have a USB 3.0 interface, and do not work with all USB 3.0 controllers. Oh, I forgot that there is also one with a Thunderbolt interface.

Sorry only seen your post after my last reply. I do have a desktop, but it's over 8 years old and has less than a gig of RAM. It's quite slow so don't know if it'd be powerful enough for capture. But if i can still achieve lossless or close to, then i'll be happy

[usually_quiet]

Oh i see. Can you still capture the signal through HDMI but convert to a different loseless codec with little to no quality loss, by capturing with high bitrates? I don't want to do it through component like on Hauppauge HD PVR 2, as i hear they have 85-90% quality loss!

You heard wrong. There isn't an 85-90% quality loss over what you would see using component video with a TV, and HDMI capture with an HD-PVR 2 is noticeably better.

Sorry only seen your post after my last reply. I do have a desktop, but it's over 8 years old and has less than a gig of RAM. It's quite slow so don't know if it'd be powerful enough for capture. But if i can still achieve lossless or close to, then i'll be happy

Sorry, but your old desktop won't be good enough for lossless HD capture.

[jagabo]

Can you still capture the signal through HDMI but convert to a different loseless codec with little to no quality loss, by capturing with high bitrates?

As was pointed out, you probably won't be able to do lossless capture with a laptop. HD video with lossless codecs will eat up about 100 GB/hr. And your playback options will be limited to computers. Standalone media players, Blu-ray players, and DVD players do not support any of the lossless codecs.

I don't want to do it through component like on Hauppauge HD PVR 2, as i hear they have 85-90% quality loss!

I think you are grossly over estimating the amount of loss with that type of device. It's more like 10 or 15 percent if you go with the higher bitrate options. You probably won't even notice the difference without looking at enlarged still frames.

[Master Tape]

Sorry, but your old desktop won't be good enough for lossless HD capture.

I thought so. I guess my only other option is to build a new pc. I was planning on building a gaming rig once i've saved up enough, but if i can just build a basic base pc powerful enough for capturing loseless HD, for now with what i've saved so far, i can then add more parts later for gaming and what not.

[usually_quiet]

If you have not built a gaming PC before and want help, you can start a new thread on that topic in the computers forum. We have lots of members who build their own systems.

In addition to the USB 3.0 and Thunderbolt devices I mentioned earlier, there is at least one consumer PCI-e capture card which can encode with third-party software capable of using lossless encoders that captures up to 1080p60. The same hardware is sold by several sources. See http://www.thethrillness.com/2014/01/micomsoft-sc-512n1-ldvi-capture-card.html

However, capture devices that hardware encode may be easier to start with.

[theewizard]

you might try this..just plug in an external drive for saving the video files

http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Cloner-need-Capture-streaming-videos/dp/B00TF9MCXU

[ezcapper]

clonerbox is good, lgp lite might be your best bet if you want very high bitrate for usb 2.0. It is 60mbps h.264, which some people say is nearly transparent. I love the clonerbox type boxes, they are 10 mbps.

[usually_quiet]

you might try this..just plug in an external drive for saving the video files

http://www.amazon.com/HDMI-Cloner-need-Capture-streaming-videos/dp/B00TF9MCXU

Master Tape wants to come as close to the original as he can. Does this box record 1080i video as 1080i?

Most of the stand-alone boxes don't record interlaced video as interlaced, and when they de-interlace they discard half the frames. For example, 1080i50 will be recorded as 1080p25 not 1080i50 or 1080p50 as many would prefer.

The AVerMedia Live Gamer Portable (lgp) mentioned above by ezcapper would record 1080i50 as 1080p25, and half the video frames that a TV would display will be discarded, leaving jerkier video.

[theewizard]

Quote

1920x1080 (24p), 1920x1080 (25p), 1920x1080 (30p)
1280x720 (50p), 1280x720 (60p)
640x480 (60p), 720x480 (60p), 720x576 (50p)

link http://www.cloner-alliance.com/hdmicloner-box-suite.html

the OP has not stated the resolution of the videos he has recorded
only that he wants to save them, it could be they are all in PAL SD, since he has a large collection from a number of years

[jagabo]

Yes, as far as I know none of the standalone recorders record interlaced input as interlaced video. They all deinterlace, removing half the temporal resolution and as much as half the spacial resolution. They should be avoided if you're looking for quality recording of interlaced video.

On the other hand, I'm sure the OP will rethink his desire for losslessly compressed video once he realizes the gigantic files it produces and limited playability of those files.

[usually_quiet]

Yes, as far as I know none of the standalone recorders record interlaced input as interlaced video. They all deinterlace, removing half the temporal resolution and as much as half the spacial resolution. They should be avoided if you're looking for quality recording of interlaced video.

I know of only two current stand-alone capture devices that capture interlaced video as interlaced, AVerMedia's EzRecorder 130 ER130 and Game Capture HD II C285. I would not recommend any others for capturing TV.

[jagabo]

I know of only two current stand-alone capture devices that capture interlaced video as interlaced, AVerMedia's EzRecorder 130 ER130 and Game Capture HD II C285.

Thanks for the update.

[ezcapper]

If interlaced output is an absolute requirement and you need a standalone box, it might be worth it to invest in the Gozens HDTV Recorder:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271434863079?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

[usually_quiet]

If interlaced output is an absolute requirement and you need a standalone box, it might be worth it to invest in the Gozens HDTV Recorder:
http://www.ebay.com/itm/271434863079?_trksid=p2055119.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I read through the information in your link. That box requires Fat32 formatting on connected drives, which means a 4GB limit on recordings. The link says it accepts input up to 1080i but I found nothing about the resolutions used for recording. In other words, this is yet another device sold direct from China with a lot of unknowns and little in the way of support from the manufacturer. ...and the boxes from AVerMedia (which have good specs available and decent manufacturer support) even cost less!

[Master Tape]

Quote

1920x1080 (24p), 1920x1080 (25p), 1920x1080 (30p)
1280x720 (50p), 1280x720 (60p)
640x480 (60p), 720x480 (60p), 720x576 (50p)

link http://www.cloner-alliance.com/hdmicloner-box-suite.html

the OP has not stated the resolution of the videos he has recorded
only that he wants to save them, it could be they are all in PAL SD, since he has a large collection from a number of years

Oh yeah sorry, the resolutions they were recorded in are 720x576i and 1920x1080i (25 fps)

On the other hand, I'm sure the OP will rethink his desire for losslessly compressed video once he realizes the gigantic files it produces and limited playability of those files.

I have had a rethink, and think capturing with a device to my laptop would be a better option. I don't think i'll be able to afford to build a new PC for now, as i'll need to get a new Freeview HD PVR, aerial and installation, so the costs soon add up. As you mentioned above having only 10-15% quality loss is no big deal, and not noticing it when the picture is in motion.

I know of only two current stand-alone capture devices that capture interlaced video as interlaced, AVerMedia's EzRecorder 130 ER130 and Game Capture HD II C285. I would not recommend any others for capturing TV.

Thanks. Surprised only these two can do it. I plan to capture in interlace and progressive for some things that i'll be uploading to my Youtube channel.

[usually_quiet]

Oh yeah sorry, the resolutions they were recorded in are 720x576i and 1920x1080i (25 fps)

1920x1080i (25 fps) and 1080i50 are two different notations for the same thing. One counts frames and the other counts fields. Each frame has two fields (25 x 2 = 50) and each field becomes a frame when properly deinterlaced for display.

I know of only two current stand-alone capture devices that capture interlaced video as interlaced, AVerMedia's EzRecorder 130 ER130 and Game Capture HD II C285. I would not recommend any others for capturing TV.

Thanks. Surprised only these two can do it. I plan to capture in interlace and progressive for some things that i'll be uploading to my Youtube channel.

Those two AVerMedia devices are the only stand-alone HDMI capture devices that hardware encode and can capture interlaced as interlaced, as far as I know. They don't require being connected to a PC and record to their own hard drive, purchased separately. The Hauppauge HD-PVR 2, Elgato Game Capture HD, which require being connected to a PC and use the PC's hard drive for recording, also hardware encode and have no trouble capturing interlaced video as interlaced.

The above capture devices normally capture interlaced video as interlaced, and progressive video as progressive. If any can convert from 1080i to 1080p during capture, they too will fail to convert half the fields into frames. You will need a progressive source to capture properly. Set top boxes can often be configured to output in a different resolution than the original, for example, to output 1080i as 720p or 576i as 576p, but I doubt that any convert 1080i to 1080p with the correct frame frate.

YouTube will usually remove content that wasn't created by the poster unless that person has obtained permission from the copyright holder.

[Master Tape]

1920x1080i (25 fps) and 1080i50 are two different notations for the same thing. One counts frames and the other counts fields. Each frame has two fields (25 x 2 = 50) and each field becomes a frame when properly deinterlaced for display.

I know of only two current stand-alone capture devices that capture interlaced video as interlaced, AVerMedia's EzRecorder 130 ER130 and Game Capture HD II C285. I would not recommend any others for capturing TV.

Those two AVerMedia devices are the only stand-alone HDMI capture devices that hardware encode and can capture interlaced as interlaced, as far as I know. They don't require being connected to a PC and record to their own hard drive, purchased separately. The Hauppauge HD-PVR 2, Elgato Game Capture HD, which require being connected to a PC and use the PC's hard drive for recording, also hardware encode and have no trouble capturing interlaced video as interlaced.

The above capture devices normally capture interlaced video as interlaced, and progressive video as progressive. If any can convert from 1080i to 1080p during capture, they too will fail to convert half the fields into frames. You will need a progressive source to capture properly. Set top boxes can often be configured to output in a different resolution than the original, for example, to output 1080i as 720p or 576i as 576p, but I doubt that any convert 1080i to 1080p with the correct frame frate.

YouTube will usually remove content that wasn't created by the poster unless that person has obtained permission from the copyright holder.

I should probably rephrase what i said, i mean capturing all the interlaced footage in interlace, and then some of the footage i'd like to deinterlace on my laptop, in a program such as VirtualDub, then edit into videos for Youtube. The content i'll be uploading is mainly news stories and commercials, copyright holders don't mind that sort of thing being uploaded as i've had similar stuff up for years with no problems.

Now that Youtube supports higher frame rates, i may convert the 576i25 to 1080p50 for smoother playback, once i figure out how.

So i just need to plug in a hard drive to the AverMedia device such as this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transcend-Military-Grade-Resistance-Portable-External/dp/B005MNGQ6C ?

[jagabo]

Now that Youtube supports higher frame rates, i may convert the 576i25 to 1080p50 for smoother playback, once i figure out how.

VirtualDub's built in deinterlace filter now has double frame rate options. The best deinterlacer is usually QTGMC in AviSynth.

[usually_quiet]

So i just need to plug in a hard drive to the AverMedia device such as this: http://www.amazon.co.uk/Transcend-Military-Grade-Resistance-Portable-External/dp/B005MNGQ6C ?

For both the EZRecorder 130 and the Game Capture HD II, Avermedia recommends a high-performance USB 2.0 or 3.0 hard drive with capacity greater than 500 GB. (The supported maximum storage capacity of the hard drive is 2TB.) NTFS file format is required.

So, on paper, that drive seems like it should work. However as insurance, I'd recommend an external hard drive in an enclosure with a cooling fan that draws power from the wall, rather than USB. If you are copying a few recordings back-to-back, a portable drive with no cooling could get hot.

[Master Tape]

For both the EZRecorder 130 and the Game Capture HD II, Avermedia recommends a high-performance USB 2.0 or 3.0 hard drive with capacity greater than 500 GB. (The supported maximum storage capacity of the hard drive is 2TB.) NTFS file format is required.

So, on paper, that drive seems like it should work. However as insurance, I'd recommend an external hard drive in an enclosure with a cooling fan that draws power from the wall, rather than USB. If you are copying a few recordings back-to-back, a portable drive with no cooling could get hot.

So the above drive in an enclosure with cooling fan would be fine? Is there any good ones you could recommend? as the ones i've looked up don't seem to have great reviews.

VirtualDub's built in deinterlace filter now has double frame rate options. The best deinterlacer is usually QTGMC in AviSynth.

Thanks for the info.

[usually_quiet]

For both the EZRecorder 130 and the Game Capture HD II, Avermedia recommends a high-performance USB 2.0 or 3.0 hard drive with capacity greater than 500 GB. (The supported maximum storage capacity of the hard drive is 2TB.) NTFS file format is required.

So, on paper, that drive seems like it should work. However as insurance, I'd recommend an external hard drive in an enclosure with a cooling fan that draws power from the wall, rather than USB. If you are copying a few recordings back-to-back, a portable drive with no cooling could get hot.

So the above drive in an enclosure with cooling fan would be fine? Is there any good ones you could recommend? as the ones i've looked up don't seem to have great reviews.

I didn't mean that you should buy the Transcend TS1TSJ25M3 and put it in another enclosure with cooling. I meant you should either buy an HDD in an enclosure with a fan, or buy an enclosure with a fan and add your own hard drive.

I have two enclosures with fans that I use with my own hard drives for storing an playing back video, but they don't seem to be available in the UK. If there is nothing like that available in the UK with mostly good reviews, then use the Transcend TS1TSJ25M3, but allow some time for it to cool down it it gets hot.

[Edit]I was looking in the wrong place. This is one of the two that I have http://www.newegg.com/global/uk/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817173042

The other looks just like it, but has a USB 3.0 connection instead of USB 2.0. Unfortunately that one is discontinued.

[Master Tape]

I didn't mean that you should buy the Transcend TS1TSJ25M3 and put it in another enclosure with cooling. I meant you should either buy an HDD in an enclosure with a fan, or buy an enclosure with a fan and add your own hard drive.

I have two enclosures with fans that I use with my own hard drives for storing an playing back video, but they don't seem to be available in the UK. If there is nothing like that available in the UK with mostly good reviews, then use the Transcend TS1TSJ25M3, but allow some time for it to cool down it it gets hot.

[Edit]I was looking in the wrong place. This is one of the two that I have http://www.newegg.com/global/uk/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16817173042

The other looks just like it, but has a USB 3.0 connection instead of USB 2.0. Unfortunately that one is discontinued.

Thanks for that. I'll just need to find a good hard drive to put in it and i'll be all set. I'll probably add more RAM to my laptop aswell, to make things more efficient.

[jagabo]

External USB hard drives often need more power than small devices can provide via the USB port. In general, 3.5" drives need to have their own external power supply. 2.5" drives can usually get by with the power provided by the USB port.

If you want to be absolutely sure, use a drive that comes with its own power supply. Or use a USB flash (thumb) drive if you have one big enough for your purposes. A 128 GB flash drive will hold about 16 hours of 1080i video at 15 Mb/s.

[Master Tape]

External USB hard drives often need more power than small devices can provide via the USB port. In general, 3.5" drives need to have their own external power supply. 2.5" drives can usually get by with the power provided by the USB port.

If you want to be absolutely sure, use a drive that comes with its own power supply. Or use a USB flash (thumb) drive if you have one big enough for your purposes. A 128 GB flash drive will hold about 16 hours of 1080i video at 15 Mb/s.

The enclosure usually_quiet posted comes with a power adapter plug, would that be enough to power the 3.5" drive?