What can I use to cut 5 frames?

[efc1978]

5 frames / 0secs.20 being obviously out of sync depends what the video footage is showing I guess. In this case of the small section I'm editing there's not really any close ups of instrumental, and just a pretty short couple of shots of a singer speaking.
However if the footage was out 5 frames / 0secs.20 for example when a drumstick was being shown hitting the drums I would find that quite obvious and annoyingly out of sync!

Speech will be visibly out of sync as much as drumsticks . Or did you mean the speaking has no vocals (speech actually isn't heard), only background music ?

The speaking is heard but the video footage is panning and isn't really focused enough to be very obviously out of sync, I just mean a more stable/focused camera shot would make it more obvious, it's kind of acceptable the way it is, most wouldn't notice anything unusual, but I'll fix it anyway.

[jagabo]

Of course, you could always just add an audio delay of 200 ms.

[efc1978]

Of course, you could always just add an audio delay of 200 ms.

I'd tried re syncing the audio where the 5 frames of the 2 different video sources overlap, but that means having 0secs.20 of repeated audio, which sounds obvious and unpleasant, eg. like when a CD skips, delay would be the same I guess...

[efc1978]

I still have this odd problem of VideoReDo outputting with what seems like 2 frames missing.
For example I have an original VOB of 9638 frames / 6min25secs.52, I believe start and end are cut properly on I frames as I used DVD Shrink to originally cut that section off a DVD.
So when do a test I load the VOB into VideoRedo and mark the very first frame as A and the very last frame as B, so I'm actually outputting the VOB to .m2v without editing it at all, so shouldn't the output .m2v be the exact same frames and time length as the original VOB?, instead of being the original 9638 frames / 6min25secs.52 it's 2 frames shorter as it is 9636 frames / 6mins25secs.44.
So I then did a check to see if the 2 missing frames were maybe cut off the start or end of the output file, so I loaded the original file and the output file both into VideoRedo and found that the first and last frames are actually the same frames for both the original and the output file...., they're even numbered as the same frame!, so why does every program I load the files into say they're 2 frames / 0secs.08 different to each other?, I even muxed both files with a long audio file which exceeded the video length then demuxed them to see the length of the output audio files, and sure enough the audio files are 0secs.08 eg. 2 frames different in length, which indicates the video files are truly 2 frames different in length....
What is happening here?, it's extremely confusing!, it seems impossible that the files can be different frame lengths by 2 frames because VideoRedo shows the first and last frame of both files as being the same frame and they're actually numbered as the exact same frame in VideoRedo.
It's bizarre!
*actually it seems by looking at the VideoRedo times next to Program, Seclection and Output it's giving the total length as 2 frames / 0secs.08 less than the file really is, and I just compared the 2 audio files I muxed into the videos, it would indicate that the 2 frames are missing from the end, it would seem that VideoRedo does not actuall show the last 2 frames of my original VOB, but why?

[jagabo]

My guess is your video is open GOP. And there are two B frames from the previous GOP stored after the I frame that starts the clip. Those 2 B frames are not displayed because the previous GOP is gone, they cannot be reconstructed, and they were to be displayed before the I frame.

Open your VOB file with GSpot and press the VSS button. That will show you the GOP structure.

[efc1978]

My guess is your video is open GOP. And there are two B frames from the previous GOP stored after the I frame that starts the clip. Those 2 B frames are not displayed because the previous GOP is gone, they cannot be reconstructed, and they were to be displayed before the I frame.

Open your VOB file with GSpot and press the VSS button. That will show you the GOP structure.

Hi,
I'm not at my PC but from memory I'm pretty sure I took my original VOB cut from a
DVD with DVD Shrink and then demuxed it to get the m2v I want to work with, I then muxed the m2v with new audio file to make a VOB then demuxed the VOB so I could see that the audio file was exactly the same length as the m2v made from my DVD Shrink VOB (and yes the audio file was the exact length of the frames), I then loaded the VOB with the new audio into DVDRedo selecting the whole file without any edits, then exported as m2v, then compared the demuxed audio files, the one before the DVDRedo output and the one after the DVDRedo output, and I found that both audio tracks start at the same 0secs.01, however the one output by DVDRedo sounds like it had 0secs.08 cut off the end.
You suggested that the 0.08 / 2 frames difference could be frames at the start being cut, but doesn't the fact that the audio files definitely start at the same time to 1 hundredth of a second mean that its not a case of the start being cut? (as it sounds like the 0secs.08 is cut off the end of the audio and definitely not the start), maybe something is happening there I don't understand!?, but I can't see how it could be the start being cut when the audio files both start at the same moment to 1 hundredth of a second....
Could it be that the same thing you described as happening at the start of the file may be instead happening at the end of the file?
Thanks

[jagabo]

With open GOPs the same thing can happen at the end of the clip. Two B frames that belong to the last GOP appear after the I frame of the next GOP. If you video is cut just before the I frame those two B frames are gone.

[efc1978]

With open GOPs the same thing can happen at the end of the clip. Two B frames that belong to the last GOP appear after the I frame of the next GOP. If you video is cut just before the I frame those two B frames are gone.

Makes sense that could be happening then, thanks for the info, looks like I've finally finished this project!
Thanks a lot for your help!
Oh, so seeing as my original m2v's which haven't been put through DVDRedo will still have the frames that get removed if they're put through the DVDRedo program, will that cause any sync issues once it's all muxed and played?, because when muxing with Muxman the m2v's are not shortened by those couple of frames like once put through DVDRedo....
If they're dispensable what happens when Muxman keeps them when combining my new audio with the m2v's into VOB's, I don't think that will effect the sync of my new audio I matched to the old audio will it?

[jagabo]

I don't know what's going to happen when you append all your m2v files. I guess you'll find out.

[efc1978]

I don't know what's going to happen when you append all your m2v files. I guess you'll find out.

I have synced my new audio to the m2v's by starting the new audio at the same 1 hundredth of a second as the old demuxed audio (also taking into account the small sync shift PGCDemux indicated the original cuts with DVD Shrink created), so it should be precise and looks that way from the bits I've tested.
But I'm just wondering seeing as DVDRedo deletes those frames, what happens to those frames when I mux the files with the new audio using Muxman into VOB's, as the length of the muxed files (the output VOB's) indicates that all the frames are kept (which if processed through DVDRedo would be deleted), so how are those frames processed by DVD player etc when they're actually kept as part of the m2v / VOB / final DVD ? And is that something that could cause sync issues?

[efc1978]

Ok. Cut on a b-frame or a p-frame at the start of a video and see if you can smart render. You might be able to and do not come back and state you are seeing rubbish in the screen

I have watched the DVD including the smart rendered part and I'm not 'seeing' any rubbish as you suggested was possible, however I've noticed a fraction of a second pause at the end of the song I smart rendered the start and finish of, the audio and video pause for a small fraction of a second at I would guess around 10-15 frames before the end of the source m2v, the pause happens in the 2 DVD/Blu ray players I played the dual layer DVD in, but when I played the DVD in my PC drive it did not have the pause, so I'm thinking the problem isn't related to the smart rendering and has something to do with the actual DVD (although IMGBurn successfully burned and verified with no write retries or compare errors.
Do you have any idea if this tiny pause could be because of the smart rendering?, there are 3 other files on the DVD which were also smart rendered but they play perfectly.

Also can somebody please explain the following to me...
In the actual piece of footage I have smart rendered the actual original video has in the top left corner a clock counting the time and frames (it's a video extra not included in a main part of the DVD), so if the VOB is loaded into VideoRedo you can actually see the frames on the clock/counter count along 1 frame at a time each time you progress 1 frame in the VideoRedo frame selection.
When I selected to cut the end of the video the last frame highlighted showed on the clock/counter in the actual video it ended on 12 frames, however when I played my DVD and rewound the DVD in slow motion 1 frame at a time in the video footage the clock shows the 13 frames, how did this 13th frame creep into the footage when the last frame highlighted in VideoRedo shows frame 12 on the video? (Bye the way slow motion fast forward shows 12 as last frame, but slow motion rewind you can see the 13 frame on the on screen clock).
Maybe I've misunderstood that when you highlight 1 frame in VideoRedo and it shows a picture of the single frame you have highlighted is there actually more picture included in that frame than the picture shows?, I'm wondering if that's how the 13 on the clock in the video footage kept in when in fact it only shows a 12 in the last frame I highlighted to keep?

Thanks

[poisondeathray]

RE: length - if the audio didn't match the video length then usually the length is indicated by the duration of the longer stream (if you have "longer" audio or video)

RE: pause - difficult to say without more information . Could be bad authoring, bad source, bad media, bad player, any number of things

RE: 13 vs 12 - depends on how you have videoredo set up . Check the options . eg. if you have "cut includes marked frame" selected it will behave differently obviously than if you don't have it checkmarked. Also note, the preview in videoredo is deinterlaced. The preview isn't showing you both fields, only one of them. You can't cut on a field, only on a full frame . So if you have a field that is part of the next number, you wouldn't see it in the preview. But if you see 1,2,3 in videoredo, then the numbers aren't showing fields, but something else. If it is progressive content, that could explain it too, but then not the 13. Maybe post a sample

[efc1978]

OK here's the samples and info.
In VideoRedo the only setting I changed since downloading the trial is in Edit-Options I have selected "Scene Mode" as I believe that saves the first frame to last frame you select/highlight.
My original uncut VOB is 3684 frames, I can see in VideoRedo there are 7 frames before the first frame I highlight to keep and 3 frames after the last frame I highlight to keep, the output m2v I make is 3674 frames so that indicates only the selection I make is kept.
The first screenshot I have posted is the original file loaded into VideoRedo before I've edited it, you can see the last frame I've highlighted to keep is 2min27secs5frames into the file (and you can see the clock/timer in the actual video footage from my DVD is 15min31secs.12frames, this is the last frame I highlight in videoRedo as it's the last frame you can see any picture of the person in the footage, if I progress by highlighting the next frame 2min27secs6frames you can see the screen is black and the clock/timer in the actual video footage has also progressed 1 frame to 15mins31secs.13frames, but I don't want to keep that frame as you can see the persons image has faded out and the video is just black now.
Once I have cut/smart rendered and output an m2v if I load that output m2v into VideoRedo it shows the first and last frame are indeed the ones I selected to keep, eg. in the last frame you can see the clock/timer in the actual video is at 15mins31.secs12frames which is the same frame/image shown in my last frame to keep selection before I made the cut.
So I muxed all my m2v's and audio together and burned a dual layer DVD.
When I played the DVD in my Bluray player and got to the end of that piece of footage, I hit pause, then rewind, I think it rewinds frame by frame as I see that counter clock in the actual video footage count consecutive frames, in forward slow motion the last frame I see is 12 (the one which I selected as last frame to keep), however in rewind slow motion you actually see the counter/clock in the video footage at 15mins31secs13frames, how did this happen when the last frame I selected to keep was showing frame 12 not 13?, it's also odd to note that you can also see the image of the person with the clock which is in the actual video at the top left of the screen showing frame 13, even though when you see frame 13 in VideoRedo it's the first black frame after the persons image has faded out.
I guess I have misunderstood something, as I thought the single frames you see when you select them in VideoRedo are all the frame consists of, but I guess there's more 'image' in the single frame than VideoRedo actually shows in the still picture?

[poisondeathray]

It's probably because of frames vs. fields mentioned eariler

The scene change is right where the first field of that frame belongs to the previous scene, but the next field belongs to the next scene (black)

Because when you single rate deinterlace, you throw out the 2nd field (ie. you are only looking at the 1st field in the preview, the 2nd field isn't visible, but it's still there in the stream - you just can't see it in the preview)

However - On the TV, it gets bob deinterlaced (double rate deinterlaced) - so essentially every field becomes a frame, thus you see everything

It's impossible to cut only on a field (you can only cut on frames).

(BTW , this is poor editing technique - a "faux pas" in the editing world, or lazy editors do this sort of thing - you should edit it so everything is on frame boundaries. Similar "problems" occur with interlaced fades and interrupted telecine cadences)

[efc1978]

Thanks for the explanation / info.
When you say everything should be edited on frame boundaries, what is a frame boundary?, is that an I frame?

[poisondeathray]

Thanks for the explanation / info.
When you say everything should be edited on frame boundaries, what is a frame boundary?, is that an I frame?

No, it this case - I'm referring to edits specifically (ie. scene changes) . It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with I, P or B frames (although the beginning of a scene change is often an I frame)

What I'm saying is you want the end of a scene to stop at the end of a full frame, not only the 1st field. Similarly, you don't want to start on the 2nd field for the start of a scene. 2 fields make up a frame, and each of those fields represent a moment in time in interlaced video .


If it doesn't make sense, just ask for clarification - I'll try to explain it more clearly

[efc1978]

Thanks for the explanation / info.
When you say everything should be edited on frame boundaries, what is a frame boundary?, is that an I frame?

No, it this case - I'm referring to edits specifically (ie. scene changes) . It doesn't necessarily have anything to do with I, P or B frames (although the beginning of a scene change is often an I frame)

What I'm saying is you want the end of a scene to stop at the end of a full frame, not only the 1st field. Similarly, you don't want to start on the 2nd field for the start of a scene. 2 fields make up a frame, and each of those fields represent a moment in time in interlaced video .


If it doesn't make sense, just ask for clarification - I'll try to explain it more clearly

OK that makes total sense, thanks again for the info.