Video Camera Support For KLV Question

[joemart]

Hello,

I am extremely new to video work but I have a project that requires the use of a video camera which supports H.264 which is pretty standard but I was also asked to find something which supports KLV which according to Wikipedia is (Key-Length-Value) data encoding. I have been having a hard time trying to find a video camera for $250-300 which saids it supports KLV. Perhaps someone out there can suggest a camera that does do this or perhaps provide me with more practical information on maybe how to find it? Any help or advice is greatly appreciated in advance.

Thanks,

Joe

[newpball]

Seems like yet another job-protection standard.

My recommendation is to rent one.

[joemart]

Hey newpball,

That is potentially some good advice but my overall problem is identifying a video camera that supports KLV.

[Cornucopia]

IIWY, I'd consider the unhelpful trolls' advice with a grain of salt and interpret what is said through a Un-Troll sour grapes filter.

KLV is a standard feature of certain types of containers, specifically the one hinted at in the requirement is likely MXF. Nearly all consumer cams do NOT record to MXF containers, but there are a number of prosumer/semi-pro cams (and of course many pro cams) that do. For instance, the XAVC format (not the consumer XAVC-S format which saves to MOV container) saves to MXF. And cams, or recorders linked to those cams, that record DNxHD will often save to the MXF container.

You will almost universally not find a cam in that price range that supports such containers (though I could have missed a rare one), and even renting in that price range might be pushing it. Plus, if you end up with a XAVC-encoded MXF fileset, you better make sure ahead of time that you'll be able to use it in your editing system (though maybe from the OP, it could be someone else who is doing the editing and that is why they demand that format). Regardless, you could remux if necessary.

Scott

[joemart]

Hey Cornucopia,

You seem to be much more knowledgable in this topic than I. I have been reading more about this and it seems I am stuck on various parts such as the idea of "containers" and "files" as it applies to video encoding. It seems pretty confusing at best. Is there any specific reading material you could suggest so I can maybe more easily come up to speed?

Also, just to confirm you implied I would not be able to find a standard video camera that supports KLV? Do you by chance know of any cameras that might support KLV?

Finally, perhaps you can give me some feedback. My impression of KLV as of now is; KLV is a granular encoder that is used in conjunction with multimedia transport protocols as a way to efficiently split data and package them for traversal over physical and logical media?

Thanks for your help Cornucopia, I am definitely making progress with wrapping my head around this,

Joe

[newpball]

...someone else who is doing the editing and that is why they demand that format

I know the type, inflexible to the bones, a stickler.

[Cornucopia]

@joemart,
In a nutshell, multimedia files (audio, video, midi, timecode, subtitles, etc "essence") can be single & containerless (often called "raw" - but that has multiple connotations, but also called "elementary streams"), or can be combined and encapsulated into a container file/stream (the process of establishing synchronization and "zippering" them together is known as "multiplexing" or "muxing" for short). Multimedia containers come in a variety of formats, some of which are very limited as to what kind of flavors of media essence are allowed to be encapsulated inside, and others which allow a wide, almost infinite, variety of flavors of essence. The former includes RealMedia, and to some extent MPEG containers. The latter includes AVI, MOV, MKV and to some extent ASF/WMV. There are others: MXF and Ogg, to name a few famous ones. These are all the most common "filetypes" that one associates with when dealing with multimedia. Take note that they are just flavor-agnostic boxes.

The flavors of the various media essences are what determines the size, shape, coloring, and quality of the experience. They can be uncompressed (HUGE!!!), losslessly-compressed (slightly less HUGE), barely lossily-compressed (Large), Medium-lossily-compressed (Medium sized) or heavily-lossily-compressed (relatively small). And those types of compression algorithms/formulae are a complex mix of prioritized compromises involving processing speed/complexity vs. filesize vs. quality features. And each one has their own take on which elements to prioritize, using different formulae from different technological approaches to tackling the problem.

Your choice, or the choice of the people you are contracting with, is which flavor of essence will work best for your project(s). Seems they have decided something like MXF. Note that KLV does not exist in and of itself as a standalone file, but as the organizational method of actual container formats such as MXF. This is similar to the organizational method of Boxes/Atoms with MP4/MOV, or with Chunks in AVI or the EBML of MKV.
Again, the KLV encoding/compartmentalizing method is used in the construction of MXF files (also AAF, BXF, GXF, LXF). Think of it like this: The MKV is a train. The passenger coach cars are video streams and the passenger sleeper cars are audio streams. But each car, whether it is passenger coach, passenger sleeper, or a tender car, or baggage storage car, has wheels, roof, door, compartment, couplers and aisles built in: these are the KLV encodings. They vary by size and arrangement, but are necessary for the commonly accepted organization of the train. KLV is not an "encoder" in the most commonly used sense of a compression scheme, but more in the sense of a packet organizing scheme.

You want to be looking a cams that support MXF (as all MXF files are built using KLV-compliant components). This includes Sony XDCam & HDCam cams, Panasonic P2 cams (including the at-the-time groundbreaking HVX200 from 2006), Atomos Recorders (when capturing to DNxHD), and the aforementioned XAVC cams.

Good luck,
Scott

[Cornucopia]

...someone else who is doing the editing and that is why they demand that format

I know the type, inflexible to the bones, a stickler.

Spoken like a true sour grapes, armchair quarterback.

Scott

[joemart]

Hey there Cornucopia,

I do not want to consume too much of your time since you have been extremely helpful already. But it appears if I find a camera that supports MPEG I might be all set to go. From this article http://www.impleotv.com/joomla/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=70&Itemid=70 it appears MPEG can be used to transport KLV. Do you see any reason this would not work? I only ask because it appears finding a camera that supports MPEG would be cheaper than finding a camera that supports MXF.

Thanks again,

Dan

[Cornucopia]

No. AFAIK, all existing cams that make use of Mpeg TS container make use of Mpeg's standard packet/byte ordering (in such devices as AVCHD, etc.). Stanag complaince does not really seem to be a priority for camera manufacturers. Since that is such a niche constraint, it would also be a more expensive added value. MXF capability is much more common, comparatively.

Scott