Issues with AVCHD

[krelian]

Hi all

I'm having a hard time trying to figure this out
I have many AVCHDs (authored with TSmuxeR), burned on DVD-R (I only use best media, TY and Verbatim)
1280x720 @30fps

They play absolutely fine on both my PC, PS3 and 2 Blu-Ray players (S350 and S550)

However I'm unable to play them on my Oppo BDP-83
Video stutters, it seems to play at 5fps with severe macroblocking

At first I thought this was due to the fact my TV is HDMI v1.1, while the Oppo is v1.3
however the slim PS3 is v1.3 too and, as I said, it works ok

Reading here and there I know there are some players more "stringent" than others when it comes to AVCHD playback
I checked specs here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD#Specifications

I guess, in theory, 720p isn't supposed to be 30fps
So I thought to convert it to 60fps and try to play it on the Oppo
However on TsmuxeR the "change fps" option only allows to convert it to 24fps and 25fps, not 60fps

Any help appreciated

[LMotlow]

At first I thought this was due to the fact my TV is HDMI v1.1, while the Oppo is v1.3
however the slim PS3 is v1.3 too and, as I said, it works ok

Reading here and there I know there are some players more "stringent" than others when it comes to AVCHD playback
I checked specs here:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVCHD#Specifications

I guess, in theory, 720p isn't supposed to be 30fps

Not in theory. In fact. Somne players will accept it as 30p. Plkayers that stick strictly to spec won't cooperate. The table you linked is correct. There's more encoding and format detail here for BluRay, but AVCHD is very similar: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533 and some updated info here for BD and AVCHD v2 https://www.videohelp.com/hd#tech.

So I thought to convert it to 60fps and try to play it on the Oppo
However on TsmuxeR the "change fps" option only allows to convert it to 24fps and 25fps, not 60fps

No surprise.

I have many AVCHDs (authored with TSmuxeR)

I didn't know TSmuxeR was an "authoring" app.

Maybe 30p as mkv or mp4 would work from an external drive.

[krelian]

thanks

well, you can understand my knowledge is very VERY limited
if you could explain when you say "no surprise", I'd greatly appreciate it

what do you suggest to do?
If I download x264, can I convert the demuxed h264 file from 30 to 60fps?
bu then would it be compatible with tsmuxer?

[newpball]

Sorry for asking the obvious but you got more than one blue ray players then why not burn blu-ray discs?

Sometimes problems are just man made.



50 BD-R discs set you back about $40 with free shipping on Amazon prime!
That's a whopping $0.80 per disc!

http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Branded-Surface-50-disc-98397/dp/B00GSQ4DBM/ref=sr_1_1?...=verbatim+bd-r

[krelian]

thanks, but have to get a BD burner first, hehe....
but you are right, I'm a bit late to the party

anyway I downloaded x264 and currently converting a vid from 30fps to 60fps, not even sure how will tsmuxe handle it
2nd pass takes forever though, after 1 hour I'm still at 15%

[newpball]

thanks, but have to get a BD burner first, hehe....
but you are right, I'm a bit late to the party

It's all relative, after all some people think SD video DVDs are cutting edge technology.

anyway I downloaded x264 and currently converting a vid from 30fps to 60fps, not even sure how will tsmuxe handle it
2nd pass takes forever though, after 1 hour I'm still at 15%

Well, hopefully for you you won't run out of space, unless you don't mind very low bitrates which obviously will cause quality issues.

[krelian]

hmmm..
I converted it to 60fps with x264
Stutter and macroblocking are gone

however it now runs at twice the speed...yeah I know..no **** Sherlock
like when you press fast forward on your remote

I'm kind of lost now

[poisondeathray]

Did you check if there was another firmware revision that might improve compatibility with your oppo ?

When you convert, you need to add duplicate frames. It appears you just doubled the fps but kept the same number of frames, so it would be half the duration (sped up 2x effectively)

[krelian]

I tried every single firmware from first to latest and didn't make any difference

In all honesty I didn't even know about x264 until LMotlow posted those links
I followed instructions as per the website, however I used one pass only

maybe I need to use 2 pass as instructed here?:
http://www.x264bluray.com/home/720p-encoding

or is there some setting I actually need to add to the command line in order to add duplicate frames?

thank A LOT

[poisondeathray]

Which command line did you use on that website?

Are your source files "AVCHD Lite" ? Is it really 30.0 FPS, or 29.97 ? 60.0 FPS is incompatible with BD or AVCHD, strictly speaking

When re-encoding 720p29.97 for AVCHD or BD , you have 2 options: 1) introduce duplicates to 720p59.94 or 2) 720p29.97 with a repeat frame flag (double pulldown), which outputs a 720p59.94 signal

Option 1 is the safest to use, and will work with TSmuxer, and basically anything

Option 2 yield higher quality for a given bitate, because only 1/2 the frames are encoded compare to option 1. The problem is not all software is compatible with authoring. Certainly TSMuxer cannot handle it, you need more strict compliant muxers for handling it

x264 cannot create duplicate frames, but you can use other programs like avisynth to create them and feed into x264. Or ffmpeg can duplicate frames

[poisondeathray]

To create duplicates, a simple script might look something like this

DirectShowSource("0001.mts", fps=29.97)
ConvertFPS(60000,1001)

So that will make it 720p59.94

You have to adjust the commandline so the buffer and maxrate values are suitable for DVD media (the transfer rates are lower than for BD media, that page really only deals with BD encoding for BD media) ---vbv-maxrate 15000 --vbv-bufsize 15000 .

You can leave the other settings, but L4.0 is only required and only 1 slice at L4.0 for 720p59.94, and with < 15000kbps, you can use "2 sec GOP" settings for BD or AVCHD. The reason you might do that is better compression, but if you don't feel too adventurous, just keep the other settings the same

[krelian]

ok
the source file is 29.97fps 1280x720, according to MediaInfo

I used as a reference the last 2 lines from that link
under 720p59.94

The 2 pass way was taking forever so I used one pass only

However
when doing so, the file was automatically converted to 25fps, for reasons I really don't know
so what I did was forcing 59.94fps with this setting, as per the website:

--fps 60000/1001 --force-cfr

so basically this is the line I used:

x264 --bitrate 4000 --fps 60000/1001 --force-cfr --preset fast --tune film --bluray-compat --vbv-maxrate 40000 --vbv-bufsize 30000 --level 4.1 --keyint 60 --open-gop --slices 4 --colorprim "bt709" --transfer "bt709" --colormatrix "bt709" --sar 1:1 -o output.264 input.264

never used avisynth but I'm more or less familiar with ffmpeg
which setting should I use?

thanks

[krelian]

Edit:
didn't see that 2nd post
thanks

[poisondeathray]

However when doing so, the file was automatically converted to 25fps

You are using an elementary stream, which is assumed to be 25 FPS, unless otherwise specified

Forcing the framerate with --fps will be the same thing as AssumeFPS() in avisynth ; basically it will keep the same frame count but speed up or slow down the video. SO if you have the same number of frames, but playback now at 59.94 FPS instead of 29.97 FPS, it will be 1/2 the duration or effectively 2x the speed



ffmpeg can be tricky with transport streams (it sometimes reads the field rate, not the frame rate)

What does ffmpeg -i input.mts say about the frame rate ? (in the container, not elementary stream)

But basically , if you use -r rate as an output option (ie. after the -i , not before), it does same thing as changefps() for avisynth which deletes or duplicates frames -r 60000/1001

e.g. if ffmpeg thought the fps was 29.97, and you used : ffmpeg -i input.ext -r 60000/10001 output.ext , it would duplicate exactly every frame, giving you what you want in terms of duplicates

And ffmpeg isn't the greatest at reading elemenatary streams as input files. You can do it with -f h264 before -i, but sometimes there are errors. It works better with files in containers

[newpball]

For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would spend over $500 for a BD player when he prefers to watch high definition using DVDs.

Must be me......

[poisondeathray]

For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would spend over $500 for a BD player when he prefers to watch high definition using DVDs.

Must be me......

If it were me, I wouldn't use optical media at all.

But for a choice between BD and DVD media for 720p29.97 content - the choice is a no brainer. DVD media is still less expensive. There is almost nothing than can't look good with properly encoded < 15Mb/s with a decent encoder with decent settings . If you're using > 15Mb/s , then something is wrong with your process or encoder, or it's something like pure noise that you're trying to encode . The only reason to use BD media, is for longer playtimes or maybe compatibility - certain models have problems with HD content on DVD media)

[newpball]

DVD media is still less expensive.

Come on now, $0.80 a disc for Verbatim HTL drives.

Seems to me that someone who has three BD players (one of them over $500) could easily afford that.

At any rate, to each his own, if some people prefer to tinker for days to save $0.15 over a BD disc then that is their business.

[poisondeathray]

DVD media is still less expensive.

Come on now, $0.80 a disc for Verbatim HTL drives.

Seems to me that someone who has three BD players (one of them over $500) could easily afford that.

At any rate, to each his own, if some people prefer to tinker for days to save $0.15 over a BD disc then that is their business.

I don't understand the tinkering comment - he would still have to "tinker" if he were going to use a BD disc. 720p29.97 is still non compliant for BD, unless it has double pulldown flags and is authored properly . His obviously isn't, so he'd still have to "tinker" with encoding settings with BD media even if he had a BD burner

My argument is why tinker at all ? Why lose quality at all ? Why optical disc at all? Unless you need a fancy menu ? Most newer BD players can play out of spec streams like 1280x720p29.97 natively, in different containers from USB. HDD is less expensive /GB than optical media by far, a lot more convenient, less clutter etc... Anyways that has nothing to do with his topic, so....

[newpball]

My argument is why tinker at all ? Why lose quality at all ? Why optical disc at all?

Interesting question. It may be psychological, some people simply cannot conceive of video being anything else than DVD. Also what I see all the time is that even if people have a BD player they still ask for DVDs, it seems they only associate BDs with Hollywood produced videos.

And you are right about optical discs, they were designed with harebrained broadcast minded standards. For instance why anyone would think it is a good idea to disallow 720p30 is just baffling to me.

[LMotlow]

For the life of me I don't understand why anyone would spend over $500 for a BD player when he prefers to watch high definition using DVDs.

Must be me......

Yep.

OPPO's players can output a good DVD as clean as they can output DB, and better than many DVD-only players. Resolution ain't everything. For a lot of folks, it's not at the top of the list. Feed a DVD or BD/AVCHD disc into an OPPO, then like many precision players it expects something standard on those discs. Mine can play a bunch of off-spec formats from USB drives, including a few hundred off-spec "AVCHD"s from my HD-PVR that my authoring apps won't accept (slightly off the cuff GOP size of 32 frames, which ain't quite AVCHD compliant). They're smart-rendered in TMPGEnc Smart Render to .ts containers with no playback problems -- until I tried them on optical disc, and the OPPO and my DENON players both complained.

The specs are what they are. Don't like it, invent your own specs, invent the players to play 'em and the monitors to watch 'em with.

[imhh1]

Sorry for asking the obvious but you got more than one blue ray players then why not burn blu-ray discs?

Sometimes problems are just man made.



50 BD-R discs set you back about $40 with free shipping on Amazon prime!
That's a whopping $0.80 per disc!

http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Branded-Surface-50-disc-98397/dp/B00GSQ4DBM/ref=sr_1_1?...=verbatim+bd-r

are these HTL ?

[newpball]

Sorry for asking the obvious but you got more than one blue ray players then why not burn blu-ray discs?

Sometimes problems are just man made.



50 BD-R discs set you back about $40 with free shipping on Amazon prime!
That's a whopping $0.80 per disc!

http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Branded-Surface-50-disc-98397/dp/B00GSQ4DBM/ref=sr_1_1?...=verbatim+bd-r

are these HTL ?

The 98397 series are.

But these are LTH:



http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Branded-Surface-Spindle-43773/dp/B006EI5S2M/ref=sr_1_1?...s=verbatim+lth

Only a couple of bucks difference!

[krelian]

However when doing so, the file was automatically converted to 25fps

You are using an elementary stream, which is assumed to be 25 FPS, unless otherwise specified

Forcing the framerate with --fps will be the same thing as AssumeFPS() in avisynth ; basically it will keep the same frame count but speed up or slow down the video. SO if you have the same number of frames, but playback now at 59.94 FPS instead of 29.97 FPS, it will be 1/2 the duration or effectively 2x the speed



ffmpeg can be tricky with transport streams (it sometimes reads the field rate, not the frame rate)

What does ffmpeg -i input.mts say about the frame rate ? (in the container, not elementary stream)

But basically , if you use -r rate as an output option (ie. after the -i , not before), it does same thing as changefps() for avisynth which deletes or duplicates frames -r 60000/1001

e.g. if ffmpeg thought the fps was 29.97, and you used : ffmpeg -i input.ext -r 60000/10001 output.ext , it would duplicate exactly every frame, giving you what you want in terms of duplicates

And ffmpeg isn't the greatest at reading elemenatary streams as input files. You can do it with -f h264 before -i, but sometimes there are errors. It works better with files in containers

I can't thank you enough for what you are doing

So, I guess it works, it now plays at correct speed
however the quality is very low, it seems to watch a 480i video
The source file is a good 5000k bit rate, level 4.1
The output I got is less than a third the original file size, 1800k avg bitrate, level 3.1

I played a bit around with the settings and I put up this

C:\ff\x1>ffmpeg -i input.264 -r 60000/1001 -profile:v high -level 4.1 -preset medium -b:v 4000k Output.h264

level 4.1 and avg bitrate 4000k (which I believe is the minimum acceptable for 720p

This completely broke the video though
It is now "fast forward" again, like it ignored the "-r 60000/1001" line
but this time WITH macroblocking
pretty much an unwatchable mess

I'll try more with the settings, unless of course you have more words of wisdom

[poisondeathray]

1800kbps means it didn't hit the bitrate target, it's way under so something is definitely wrong

Did you read the posts above - I already addressed potential issues with using elementary AVC with ffmpeg. Use a container and it should work properly, unless it has problems with your transport stream. Or if you must use .264 as input for some reason, at use -f h264 before -i input.264 ; that tells ffmpeg it's an elementary stream. You should use the same BD compliant settings with -x264opts. Or if it's too confusing for you, you can pipe ffmpeg to x264

Alternatively you can do this with avisynth. That's the way I would do it, because ffmpeg can be flaky

[poisondeathray]

When using an elementary stream, you also need to set the input framerate first , ie. what it should be (i.e. 29.97) before the -i . Try this:

ffmpeg -f h264 -r 30000/1001 -i input.264 -r 60000/1001 -profile:v high -level 4 -preset medium -b:v 4000k -vf setsar=sar=1/1 -g 120 -x264opts bluray-compat=1:vbv-bufsize=15000:vbv-maxrate=15000:colorprim=bt709:transfer=bt709:colormatrix=bt709:force-cfr output.h264

[krelian]

Did you read the posts above - I already addressed potential issues with using elementary AVC with ffmpeg

I did actually use. mkv as well as .264, sorry for not mentioning it. No difference.
Generally speaking though, the reason I tend to use .264 is TsmuxeR is extremely unpredictable with containers.
8 times out of 10 .mp4's generally don't open or open but don't mux properly to AVCHD, many time I got problems with mkv too.
When I have problems I use Handbrake to either convert from mp4 to mkv or from mkv....to again mkv (as silly as it sounds)
I don't know what magic is inside Handbrake but whatever you throw at it, it polishes it and makes it 100% compatible with any program.

ok then
It works great!! Runs smooth-smooth with no artifact/macroblocking whatsoever.
Output is definitely not as sharp as source file but I doubt increasing the bitrate to, say, 5000k-6000k will reduce softness, I think?
I only wish it'd be faster, it really takes forever, I might increase the -preset to "veryfast" but it'd probably degrade quality even further.

Anyway it's about time I start getting into Avisynth
I'll report back

You saved my life and prevented me from throwing the Oppo out the damn window

[poisondeathray]

Did you read the posts above - I already addressed potential issues with using elementary AVC with ffmpeg

I did actually use. mkv as well as .264, sorry for not mentioning it. No difference.
Generally speaking though, the reason I tend to use .264 is TsmuxeR is extremely unpredictable with containers.
8 times out of 10 .mp4's generally don't open or open but don't mux properly to AVCHD, many time I got problems with mkv too.
When I have problems I use Handbrake to either convert from mp4 to mkv or from mkv....to again mkv (as silly as it sounds)
I don't know what magic is inside Handbrake but whatever you throw at it, it polishes it and makes it 100% compatible with any program.

ok then
It works great!! Runs smooth-smooth with no artifact/macroblocking whatsoever.
Output is definitely not as sharp as source file but I doubt increasing the bitrate to, say, 5000k-6000k will reduce softness, I think?
I only wish it'd be faster, it really takes forever, I might increase the -preset to "veryfast" but it'd probably degrade quality even further.

Anyway it's about time I start getting into Avisynth
I'll report back

You saved my life and prevented me from throwing the Oppo out the damn window

.264 is fine for the output file that you use as input for tsmuxer. You should be using that. I was referring to the input file for ffmpeg

You've doubled the number of frames, and lowered the bitrate - so yes it's expected to be "softer". As I said earlier, the "best" way is to use repeat frame flags, so you don't increase the number of frames. As good as x264 is with b-frames and pure duplicates, that still has a cost. Tsmuxer cannot handle these, however

Increasing the bitrate will help . Using a faster preset will make it worse. 2pass will yield better results. You can also try capped 1pass CRF encoding. 1pass ABR will be the worst, always

What is the source content like ? ie. Is it an action movie , handheld home video, etc... ? Is it noisy ? Otherwise you can preprocess with things such as denoising and it will help with compression

[newpball]

Using an over $500 Oppo to watch 4Mb/s 720p60 footage.

All we need now is someone to advice heavy Avisynth processing to 'improve' things, with lossless intermediates of course, because "quality".

Epic!

[krelian]

It's a Japanese drama series, not much action going on
It's broadcasted 720p natively at bitrates unimaginable for us (in the West). When ripped the bitrate is probably capped at 5000k, however the pq is as clean as clean can get, no noise whatsoever and razor sharp.
Also it's extremely bright, set mostly during daytime

Since the audio is encoded AAC, that is not compatible with tsmuxer.
So I demux it, convert audio from aac to wav with ffmpeg, remux all together and apply fan-made English subtitles and make it AVCHD
When I demux it the video file is automatically turned into .264 by Tsmuxer, maybe I should demux it differently so to keep the video stream input mkv or mp4?

I will try a 2pass encoding and let you know.

[krelian]

Using an over $500 Oppo to watch 4Mb/s 720p60 footage.

All we need now is someone to advice heavy Avisynth processing to 'improve' things, with lossless intermediates of course, because "quality".

Epic!

heh
you take this very seriously, or not?

anyway
The 83 is such an old player, I couldn't get it new even if wanted, I had a real bargain

The series I have been watching for the past 4-5 years or so, run all years along, we're talking 50-55 episodes per year
I know price of BD-R media went down substantially but I'd still feel like a jerk to waste them for something I'd only watch once.
It seems to me the most practical way to do what I need to do is to use a DVD-RW