Considering a Canon Vixia 600, sound like a good choice

[Batchman]

Considering buying my first video camera (as opposed to borrowing friends' cameras now and then). Don't have a lot of money, but the Canon Vixia 600 sounds like a really good option for a really good price. Want to get some opinions.

Will be used for taping live shows at theme parks, inside and out, day and night. Want good video quality, also hope for good sound. Thankfully the 600 has a place to wire in an external mic. Also, any recommendation for a good, external mic that could be added to the camera easily? Thoughts about the camera's skill for the above-mentioned uses?

Anybody have any thoughts on DBK batteries for 2nd/replacement batteries? Rumor has it they are as good as/better than the oem.

Just looking for some thoughts.

[newpball]

It really depends on what kind of quality you expect. You are looking at a low-end consumer camera. That should give you an indication.

My recommendation is to do some tests inside and outside and look at the video if you like the results.

The sensor is very small on these kind of low-end consumer cameras, shooting inside without additional lights is always going to be a noisy affair. Also while this camera is marked HD don't be surprised you will not get an effective HD resolution, unfortunately there is often a lot of fudging going on between the sensor and encoder to 'make' it HD. Freeze a test video and zoom to 400% that should give you an idea as to how good the resolution is.

Another issue is the focus. Is the auto focus fast enough and does it focus what you want to focus? I do not know if this device has a manual focus option, but even if it does it is for all practical purposes useless, no being without Vulcan ears can focus accurately on some crappy 3 something inch electronic viewing screen.

Sound, I am sorry but you should just forget about using the built-in mics, it's total crap quality at this level.

Instead get some sound recorder like the Tascam DR-40 (set you back about $140).

With respect to skill, never ever record handheld (unless for a few seconds for effect). Refrain from excessive panning and zooming and if the tripod is basic (say under $150) don't pan at all as it won't work smoothly. Also record with a minimum of two cameras as you can't really edit with one camera and single shot clips will bore your audience quickly.

For Canon I would recommend at least a G20, but yes it is more expensive.

[Batchman]

No offense, but damn, I hope you are just super-negative today, and there are others with a more positive view. Because from reading your missive, not only is the camera a piece of crap, but every park video I have ever made, or even ever watched and enjoyed was complete trash, and I should be ashamed of myself for even existing.

Please tell me there are people out there with a more positive view on this camera.

Well, I did ask for opinions ....

[usually_quiet]

No offense, but damn, I hope you are just super-negative today, and there are others with a more positive view. Because from reading your missive, not only is the camera a piece of crap, but every park video I have ever made, or even ever watched and enjoyed was complete trash, and I should be ashamed of myself for even existing.

Please tell me there are people out there with a more positive view on this camera.

Well, I did ask for opinions ....

I looked at a number of reviews on the model you are asking about. Owners generally found it easy to use and liked it for filming outdoors in bright light, but video shot indoors or in low-light conditions outdoors may be less satisfactory. One Amazon reviewer was unhappy with it for filming services at his church.

[Batchman]

Looks like regardless of the continued technological advances, there will never be a good video camera that I can afford. Thank you both for helping to keep me from wasting what little money I have available!

[julitomg]

As you can see, here in Videohelp there´s no lack of the usual know-it-all´s whose attitude is always "If you don´t do things the way I do them, and if you don´t buy the equipment/software that I have, you´re an idiot"...and sure enough, not being very specific about what you need or want to accomplish is a way of luring them in. It is very relative indeed what does a "good video camera" mean. Do you need a camcorder because you´ve been hired to do a paid job in the theme park? or you want to do it as a hobby, are the shows well lit when indoors or during night time? (something theme parks don´t lack is lighting, and even during a night outside performance they ´ll make sure you people can see what´s going on, won´t they?..so it´s not exactly like "poor light conditions"), what kind of sound are you trying to "capture"?, spoken dialog, songs, interviews? that´s very important to know to select the right kind of microphone (or microphones), even on a low budget (particularly on a low budget)
I took a look at the camcorder yo´re considering here:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1110404-REG/canon_0280c001_vixia_hf_r600_full.html
I doesn´t look that bad, but again, it depends on a number of things, yes it certainly is not a very PRO camcorder but that doesn ´t mean you cannot get away with better results than the average user would (with semi pro or even pro results, again, depending of many things)
For example; if it does have manual controls for exposure, focus, white balance and sound level, it´s excellent to avoid the typical "home video" look where every value shifts constantly according to what the camera "thinks" is Ok at every step, so scenes are plagued with these slight but annoyingly noticeable small changes in focus, color and exposure.
Also it looks like a very lightweight camcorder so handheld shots will also giveaway it´s amateur origin, you´ll need either a very good pulse or something to help you keep it steady (don´t count on the camcorder´s buit in stabilization to save your footage), so a nice tripod is a good idea (by nice I mean one with a fluid head and as sturdy and heavy as you can afford)
Anyway, don´t get discouraged and feel free to ask whenever you want to (but also let us help you by giving more details about what you actually need)

[Batchman]

The thing is, it is a hobby. It doesn't have to be something that can be broadcast as a television show with perfect production values ... it's just that 30 years ago I lugged around a teacher's full-size VHS video camera, and shot some very nice Disney stage shows which are still eminently watchable today. The color is often a little off, and things shook a little, but it was still easy to see what was going on, and the sound was still fairly good.

But then I saw things that friends were filming within the last five years, and the colors were much brighter, and the details were much sharper. I heard rumors that the sound quality was a bit worse than those old, full-size VHS cameras produced ... but then somebody mentioned external mics, so I thought there might be a work-around to keep the sound quality up.

I used to tape free-hand, but I have been warned that the weight of the full-size camera actually helped in that case ... I can neither afford a good full tripod, nor do I want one, but this time around I was certainly planning to try and find a good monopod and figure out how to best use it to add to stability as I taped.

What do I want from my audio? Stereo sound, capturing the music and soundtrack of the shows, but also able to capture the conversations as much as possible, when the performers are interacting with the audience. Hopefully there are ways to keep the audience noise a little less obtrusive when there aren't direct interactions ... and let me ask, do all recording devices still lose it when a loud sound appears for an instant? (One wild west show used to have somebody walk in and fire off a blank from a gun. The 'crack' of the shot would always be muted, and the sound level would go nuts for two or three seconds so you heard nothing until it readjusted itself again.)

Lighting levels? The best thing I could suggest is glance at a couple of pages of my youtube videos (https://www.youtube.com/user/DisneyBatchman) ... the thumbnails give some idea of the range of different lighting levels available at different locations. They also show the level of quality I used to get, and would be happy to improve on just a little. I'm hoping for a little bit of improvement in color saturation and detail level (from filming in close to HD rather than at 240x360 pixels) but don't need hugely more than that.

Does that help any in providing some more details about what I need?

Oh ... and I'm not absolutely attached to the Canon I mentioned ... it's just while reading review sites, it was the best looking (in what was offered) of the three low-end cameras mentioned as the best in the under $500 price range, and I have to stay under $500 for the camera. Even that will be hard to come up with. I'm open to other cameras in the same price range that might be better.

[smrpix]

If the picture quality on your YouTube site is acceptable to you, you will be delighted with the improvement you'll see with the Canon. I like Rode brand external mics, but there are many decent alternatives. If you're close enough, the Canon built-in mic may be satisfactory as is.

[julitomg]

The problem with built in mics is that they keep picking un handling noises whenever you push a button on the camcorder, move the monitor screen or just reaccommodate it in your hand while you´re recording. If the RODE (or Sennheiser or simmilar brands) is too expensive for you, you could take a look a these as alternatives:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/664440-REG/Audio_Technica_ATR6550_ATR6550_Conden...icrophone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/444022-REG/Azden_SMX_10_SMX_10_Stereo_Microphone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/981284-REG/azden_sgm_990_supercardioid_omni_shotgun_mic.html
As for camcorders, under 500 dollars you will find several very decent models (I´d personally go for the Vixia 600´s bigger sisters or the Panasonic ones, I currently have a Panasonic AVCHD camcorder and am very pleased with it)
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/search?atclk=Brand_JVC&Ns=p_PRICE_2|0&ci=1871&N=42945480....00&mxp=500.00

[newpball]

A mic on a camcorder will work if you do an interview in someone's face, in all other cases you will set yourself up for epic "mumbling sound" failure.

Much better to record sound with a digital audio recorder.

[Batchman]

Thank you, julitomg ... You gave me some areas to look into, and I did a lot of poking around. It looks like the AVCHDs are out ... they all seem to run over $1,000, and there's no way I can manage that. However, it is beginning to look like the Panasonic HC-V770 may be my better option. It is almost twice the price of the Vixia 600, but from the sound of things, it out-performs it in every area. I was thrown off the Panasonic models originally because they were all advertising using your cellular phone at the same time to do picture in picture, which seems gimmicky to me. Have no interest in it, and don't want to pay for it ... but ignoring that feature, the camera still seems to have the best video, best low light usage, best stablization, best audio, in the price range. So I will really have to consider it. Still plan to eventually add an external mic, but if I go with the Panasonic, it will have to wait a bit because of the extra cost of the original camera.

Again, thank you for all the input from everybody who has taken the trouble to respond, and any further suggestions or information would still be appreciated.

[edit] By the way, newpball ... are you saying that all the built-in mics are garbage, or does that even include external mics you add on to the cameras?[/edit]

[newpball]

[edit] By the way, newpball ... are you saying that all the built-in mics are garbage....

Sorry I missed your question initially:

Yes pretty much all built-in mics from DSLRs and consumer level camcorders are total crap.

, or does that even include external mics you add on to the cameras?[/edit]

No, that would depend on the mic attached.

But why attach it to the camera?
Let the camera do video, let a sound recorder do the sound.

[Batchman]

No, that would depend on the mic attached.

But why attach it to the camera?
Let the camera do video, let a sound recorder do the sound.

Because then I would need to buy an extra piece of equipment, get used to it, find a place in a crowded theme park to set it up, hope nothing interfered with it, process two entirely separate files, and eventually find a way to merge them together and sync them, and probably not be able to recognize a quality difference between them, anyway.

That's not to say it wouldn't be a very good idea if I were doing the kind of stuff you had mentioned before, with multiple cameras and multiple angles and all the rest ... but then I would need to buy multiple cameras, and have multiple people with me to tape multiple angles on multiple days, for multiple shows, and so on and so forth. Instead, I just want to walk in, take a seat at a show I've watched a few times, so I know where the action will usually take place, and just shoot a show. It won't be super-professional ... but Disney has a habit of throwing out people who have super-professional equipment, anyway. (I have no idea if similar types of rules still exist, but when I filmed stage shows there 20 years ago, they would not let in people with ... what was it ... Steady-Cams? because they were more professional than Disney was going to allow their guests to use without paying the park specifically to do filming there.)

(Heck ... they carted me into security more than once because I brought in a ghetto blaster, not to play anything, but to record, because it was the best equipment I had to record audio of a show with, when I didn't have access to a video camera. Kept it hidden in a backpack until I got to the stage, so it wouldn't bother any guests to see it, and again, just used it to record cassettes, but most the time they would not allow it at all, and the couple times they did, I was escorted to the stage by security, and then escorted out of the park after the show was over. Sheesh!)

I'm a newbie. Worse, I'm a broke newbie. And I'm already going to be struggling, trying to find the extra $250 to get the Panasonic as opposed to the Canon. Anything else is going to have to wait for quite a while, and I'm going to have to see a need for it, after I try with just the camera and a fairly low cost external added on to it.

TMI?

[julitomg]

The truth is that, in spite of what some fanatics...hmmm..I mean members here think, you won´t get struck by lightning if you dare to use less than pro equipment under less tha pro situations. And here´s another myth destroyed: camcorder mics aren´t as terrible as some people try to make them look. Obviously, it depends on a number of things (cheaper cameras usually have cheaper components inside, some won´t let you maniuually adjust the sound and so on) but thinking about the range of camcorders you´re considering, I´d say the onboard mics aren´t really the fault by themselves, the problem is that they are very badly placed for correct sound recording, newer camera design trends make them flush along the body of the camcorder (do you remember when camcorder microphones somewhat protruded from the body, mimicking professional cameras?), such position and small overall size means that you´ll wind up hearin (and recording) all sorts of unwanted sounds like your fingers pushing buttons or your hand rustling every time you reaccommodate it, even buzzing zoom motors; also, manufacturers have chosen to install omnidirectional mics so the camcorder "hears" everything around it, like comments from the person recording the scene, etc...and DSLRS are even worse in most of these respects. Therefore I´d consider the onboard microphone more of an emergency device but also with a range of results depending on several things (For example, someone recording a children´s party where most of what you see is kids running around, yelling and laughing or singing "happy birthday to you", it´ll probably be ok, also if you´re recording a small music band in a closed medium size room, depending on the room´s acoustics, the result could be better tahn what you´d think)
Anyway, in your case, I´d still suggest any of the microphones I mentioned before

The problem with built in mics is that they keep picking un handling noises whenever you push a button on the camcorder, move the monitor screen or just reaccommodate it in your hand while you´re recording. If the RODE (or Sennheiser or simmilar brands) is too expensive for you, you could take a look a these as alternatives:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/664440-REG/Audio_Technica_ATR6550_ATR6550_Conden...icrophone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/444022-REG/Azden_SMX_10_SMX_10_Stereo_Microphone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/981284-REG/azden_sgm_990_supercardioid_omni_shotgun_mic.html

[budwzr]

Watch out! Panasonic is known to exaggerate specs.

[Batchman]

The problem with built in mics is that they keep picking un handling noises whenever you push a button on the camcorder, move the monitor screen or just reaccommodate it in your hand while you´re recording. If the RODE (or Sennheiser or simmilar brands) is too expensive for you, you could take a look a these as alternatives:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/664440-REG/Audio_Technica_ATR6550_ATR6550_Conden...icrophone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/444022-REG/Azden_SMX_10_SMX_10_Stereo_Microphone.html
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/981284-REG/azden_sgm_990_supercardioid_omni_shotgun_mic.html

Oh, I've not forgotten your mic recs. I'm staying close to this topic as I prepare to make the purchase.

[glenpinn]

Everything is subjective and relevant to what your needs are.

My 2 cents worth is to buy the very best possible camera you can afford, but do not expect to find your answer in a video forum because just as you have now experienced, you are going to get differing opinions, simply serving to confuse you.

If you can google a Panasonic TM700, TM900 or an SDT750 like the 2 i have, then buy one 2nd hand rather than buy the camera you have chosen, because these cams are still widely used and are available out there, and you will not get a better avchd camera that these for a decent price.

Just be sure to test the camera first before buying.

Will the video you shoot be important to you in your life, now and into the future.
What frame rate do you want to shoot in ?
Do you want manual focus control or just use AF mode ?
Do you intend shooting in hand held mode, if so, you need Image Stabilization.

There are far better cams out there than the Vixia 600, so i suggest spending more for something much better, but this is just my opinion, i just hate seeing people throw good money away on these cheaper consumer grade cams.

Oh, btw, i use a Rode Video Mic Pro attached to my cams, does a good job at picking up sound from people who are well in front of the camera, as well as recording my own voice while commentating from behind the camera, so these can be used ok in situations where you are shooting video while interviewing someone in front of the camera.

Not saying this is a perfect scenario, but for what i do, it suffices because i am always on my own, and i need to travel as light as i can.