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  1. Here is the newswire:

    http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150512005300/en/Blu-ray-Disc-Association-Compl...2#.VVN82PlVhBe

    Interesting to note that the spec only supports UHD and not 4K (I thought 4K was the preferred resolution of cinematic releases). No mention of frame rate other than "high frame rate". Any ideas what this means? Other sources say dual layer discs will support bit rates up to 82 Mbps and quad layer will support 128 Mbps. My guess is we will see the spec expand over time in the same way Blu-ray expanded for HD. All neatly packaged in HEVC using BT.2020.

    I am glad to see they are pushing this forward because I personally hate storing my home movies on ephemeral hard drives and prefer either tape or optical media for long term archiving (cold storage). The good news is a 50 disc spindle of Verbatim dual layer BD-R is now $100 or $2/disc. That works out to $0.04/GB for 2.5 TB which is on par with current crop of 4 TB drives (if you subscribe to Backblaze's methods, you should avoid 3 TB drives, personally I think their data needs to be taken with a huge grain of salt, but that is another story).

    All the pieces are coming together for me to buy a 4K camcorder.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Here is the newswire:

    http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150512005300/en/Blu-ray-Disc-Association-Compl...2#.VVN82PlVhBe

    Interesting to note that the spec only supports UHD and not 4K (I thought 4K was the preferred resolution of cinematic releases).
    This new format is intended to be viewed on a TV, and TVs are UHD, not 4K. It is better not to have to scale the video.
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  3. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    This new format is intended to be viewed on a TV, and TVs are UHD, not 4K. It is better not to have to scale the video.
    Still don't understand why the spec doesn't support 4K.
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  4. Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    This new format is intended to be viewed on a TV, and TVs are UHD, not 4K. It is better not to have to scale the video.
    Still don't understand why the spec doesn't support 4K.
    Also appears to make DVD completely obsolete? I've got a lot of movies not worth buying again.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    This new format is intended to be viewed on a TV, and TVs are UHD, not 4K. It is better not to have to scale the video.
    Still don't understand why the spec doesn't support 4K.
    Really, you can't understand that this is a commercial product targeted at home theater enthusiasts with UHD TVs, and that nobody in the home entertainment industry is the least bit interested in selling exact digital copies of theatrical movies to the public? Plus, given that this is a commercial product why would those responsible for it care if hobbyists are inconvenienced by the need to re-encode? Pros won't mind.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th May 2015 at 09:52. Reason: punctuation
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  6. Member Cornucopia's Avatar
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    What we were given was not the "spec", but a marketing news release with very little meat in the details. Nothing new was revealed here that we didn't already know months ago.
    Plus, it is meant to only cover the items in the spec that are pertinent to UHD. Did the BD spec make DVD and SD video obsolete and orphaned? No. Neither will this, until consumers stop buying DVDs in the millions. Player manufacturers would be stupid to not include support for BD, DVD, CD.

    Scott
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  7. Scott, the PR sheet specifically said BR would be supported, nothing about other disks. I suspect this is not a long-term issue in either case because 1) older disks probably will be supported (eventually?) as you suggest, and 2) UHD-BR will probably have a shorter half-life than BR anyway.
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    Of course the always forward looking standards people now allow a whopping 3 (three) more refresh rates (120p, 119.88p, 100p). Yes I know folks, amazing technology isn't it!

    Because, imagine that 5 years from now monitors can refresh with rates much higher than that, even over 1k, we would want to make sure our standards specifically disallow that! Imagine completely stutter free viewing. No that ought to be stopped now, stuttering is a tradition!

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  9. Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    Also appears to make DVD completely obsolete? I've got a lot of movies not worth buying again.
    I don't get caught up in the format cycle. The studios use it as a ploy to get you to unlock your wallet and re-buy everything you already own. No thanks. Plus, my 70" Sony scales up DVD content so good I can hardly tell the difference btw BD and DVD for the few movies I happen to own both and have done a comparison. So I have hardly felt the need to rebuy my DVDs or even bother paying up to rent BDs. Go to your local Redbox and DVDs are prominently available. Also, who still buys DVDs or even Blu-ray? They just take up space. Everyone, I mean everyone, streams. Don't take my word for it, ask your family and friends, well, at least the generation that matters to the future of standards, 20 somethings. My stupid BD player bit the dust a few months ago and I have yet to miss it. But streaming UHD/4K content, that is a different bugger altogether. I am more than happy to rent a UHD film from Redbox though, especially if it is a BDXL that streams at 128 Mbps in glorious 10-bit color. I can't wait to see that.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Everyone, I mean everyone, streams. Don't take my word for it, ask your family and friends, well, at least the generation that matters to the future of standards, 20 somethings.


    But thanks for confirming that the entire mankind is doomed anyway
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  11. Originally Posted by El Heggunte View Post


    But thanks for confirming that the entire mankind is doomed anyway
    Do you also tell people to get off your lawn?
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    Also appears to make DVD completely obsolete? I've got a lot of movies not worth buying again.
    I don't get caught up in the format cycle. The studios use it as a ploy to get you to unlock your wallet and re-buy everything you already own. No thanks. Plus, my 70" Sony scales up DVD content so good I can hardly tell the difference btw BD and DVD for the few movies I happen to own both and have done a comparison. So I have hardly felt the need to rebuy my DVDs or even bother paying up to rent BDs. Go to your local Redbox and DVDs are prominently available. Also, who still buys DVDs or even Blu-ray? They just take up space. Everyone, I mean everyone, streams. Don't take my word for it, ask your family and friends, well, at least the generation that matters to the future of standards, 20 somethings. My stupid BD player bit the dust a few months ago and I have yet to miss it. But streaming UHD/4K content, that is a different bugger altogether. I am more than happy to rent a UHD film from Redbox though, especially if it is a BDXL that streams at 128 Mbps in glorious 10-bit color. I can't wait to see that.
    I still buy DVD and Blu-Ray discs, but not many, and rent only on Blu-Ray and DVD from Redbox. True, I'm long out of my 20's. If Redbox went away, I'd order movies from my cable provider. While that is more expensive than using Redbox, it is cheaper than upgrading my Internet service and subscribing to Netflix.

    Some twenty-somethings I know primarily use paid streaming services, but others are mostly interested in free, illegal downloads. Mom and Dad pay for their Internet service in both cases.
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  13. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I still buy DVD and Blu-Ray discs, but not many, and rent only on Blu-Ray and DVD from Redbox. True, I'm long out of my 20's. If Redbox went away, I'd order movies from my cable provider. While that is more expensive than using Redbox, it is cheaper than upgrading my Internet service and subscribing to Netflix.

    Some twenty-somethings I know primarily use paid streaming services, but others are mostly interested in free, illegal downloads. Mom and Dad pay for their Internet service in both cases.
    So you yourself confirm what I said. Owning a BD or DVD is becoming a niche market. As for streaming service subscriptions, are you still on dial-up? And your example of illegal downloads, is that age bias? What is your point?
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    I still buy DVD and Blu-Ray discs, but not many, and rent only on Blu-Ray and DVD from Redbox. True, I'm long out of my 20's. If Redbox went away, I'd order movies from my cable provider. While that is more expensive than using Redbox, it is cheaper than upgrading my Internet service and subscribing to Netflix.

    Some twenty-somethings I know primarily use paid streaming services, but others are mostly interested in free, illegal downloads. Mom and Dad pay for their Internet service in both cases.
    So you yourself confirm what I said. Owning a BD or DVD is becoming a niche market. As for streaming service subscriptions, are you still on dial-up? And your example of illegal downloads, is that age bias? What is your point?
    You say only twenty somethings count, and lots of them still live at home, with the parents paying for many of their expenses to allow their children to save money or pay off student loans. Are you going to deny that some twenty-somethings also continue to download movies illegally like they did in high school and college to save a few bucks?

    I'd say you are the one with an age bias. I know families with young children that primarily buy and rent DVDs. The parents are in their 30s and 40s, but you say they don't count on account of their age, nor do the grandparents who buy DVD movies for themselves or their grand kids count, on account of their age.

    The problem is that I like watching HD content, but have high-speed Internet service which Netflix says is insufficient for HD content. I don't want to pay $38 a month more to stream HD movies from Netflix. ...and I'd have to go to the expense and trouble of installing a wired home network. A wireless home network hasn't worked all that well for HD video streaming here either due to old-fashioned plaster wall construction.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th May 2015 at 11:35.
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    You say only twenty somethings count, and lots of them still live at home, with the parents paying for many of their expenses to allow their children to save money or pay off student loans. Are you going to deny that some twenty-somethings also continue to download movies illegally like they did in high school and college to save a few bucks?
    Yes those youngsters!



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  16. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    You say only twenty somethings count, and lots of them still live at home, with the parents paying for many of their expenses to allow their children to save money or pay off student loans. Are you going to deny that some twenty-somethings also continue to download movies illegally like they did in high school and college to save a few bucks?

    I'd say you are the one with an age bias. I know families with young children that primarily buy and rent DVDs. The parents are in their 30s and 40s, but you say they don't count on account of their age, nor do the grandparents who buy DVD movies for themselves or their grand kids count, on account of their age.

    The problem is that I like watching HD content, but have high-speed Internet service which Netflix says is insufficient for HD content. I don't want to pay $38 a month more to stream HD movies from Netflix. ...and I'd have to go to the expense and trouble of installing a wired home network. A wireless home network hasn't worked all that well for HD video streaming here either due to old-fashioned plaster wall construction.
    Excuse me Mr. Get Off My Lawn, but I am not the one accusing 20 somethings of illegally downloading like they did in high school and college and free-loading off the parents all in the name of trying to save a few bucks. Speaking of which, you seem pretty keen on saving $38 per month, but you're suddenly better than a 20 something? Well, I got news for you, today's 20 somethings buying habits and tastes will define consumerism in 20 years.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Excuse me Mr. Get Off My Lawn, but I am not the one accusing 20 somethings of illegally downloading like they did in high school and college and free-loading off the parents all in the name of trying to save a few bucks.
    Who said these kids are doing something wrong by merely living at home for a while? My parents did that too, in the 1940s and 1950s until they saved enough money to get married and buy a house. ...but if you think that while someone is living at home they have all the same expenses and spend money the same way as they would if they had to be entirely self sufficient, then you have never had to pay all your own expenses.

    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Speaking of which, you seem pretty keen on saving $38 per month...
    I have to pay my own expenses.

    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Well, I got news for you, today's 20 somethings buying habits and tastes will define consumerism in 20 years.
    They will have to wait their turn, junior. ...and at that point they are going to be considered irrelevant by their kids.
    Last edited by usually_quiet; 14th May 2015 at 13:04.
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  18. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    They will have to wait their turn, junior.
    how old do you think I am, old man?
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    They will have to wait their turn, junior.
    how old do you think I am, old man?
    Be happy that I am charitable enough attribute your utter lack of common sense to youthful inexperience. LOL
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  20. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Be happy that I am charitable enough attribute your utter lack of common sense to youthful inexperience. LOL
    haha, spinning ur ageist diatribes into charity. cognitive dissonance at its finest.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    [Speaking of which, you seem pretty keen on saving $38 per month, but you're suddenly better than a 20 something? Well, I got news for you, today's 20 somethings buying habits and tastes will define consumerism in 20 years.
    That's nothing!

    Wait till you meet some members who think that 32 bit XP computers and standard definition video on old CRTs is really all we need.



    And also be prepared to receive personal attacks from certain members, the number of times I am accused of "not taking my pills" or "having a personality disorder" or other personal attacks keeps increasing. I report them, but apparently personal attacks are condoned on this forum. And then those same members claim the moral high ground! Unbelievable!
    Last edited by newpball; 14th May 2015 at 14:34.
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    Very well, I'm afraid the eternal newbies and their eternal linear logic cannot be cured at all
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    Originally Posted by smrpix View Post
    Also appears to make DVD completely obsolete? I've got a lot of movies not worth buying again.
    I don't get caught up in the format cycle. The studios use it as a ploy to get you to unlock your wallet and re-buy everything you already own. No thanks. Plus, my 70" Sony scales up DVD content so good I can hardly tell the difference btw BD and DVD for the few movies I happen to own both and have done a comparison. So I have hardly felt the need to rebuy my DVDs or even bother paying up to rent BDs. Go to your local Redbox and DVDs are prominently available. Also, who still buys DVDs or even Blu-ray? They just take up space. Everyone, I mean everyone, streams. Don't take my word for it, ask your family and friends, well, at least the generation that matters to the future of standards, 20 somethings. My stupid BD player bit the dust a few months ago and I have yet to miss it. But streaming UHD/4K content, that is a different bugger altogether. I am more than happy to rent a UHD film from Redbox though, especially if it is a BDXL that streams at 128 Mbps in glorious 10-bit color. I can't wait to see that.
    You need to stop believing your own BS. Yes, most people stream (I do, too), but not everyone. And conversely, while it is less than it used to be proportionately, still quite a bit of the population rents/buys discs (I do, too). Why would anyone limit themselves?
    Just because you feel like you are on the bandwagon of a new thing doesn't mean that it's a watershed moment with this huge generational dichotomy.

    And 20-somethings haven't really had time to make up their minds WRT buying habits yet (certainly not when they're burdened with the responsibility for family, etc.), so the jury is still out on that.

    You don't MISS your BD player, but if you intend to see these UHD BDs, you'll need to get another player to play them.

    *********************

    "Niche market" - by your reasoning, anything less than a majority, or maybe even a super-majority, could be that. But reasonably, when is a niche market no longer relevant? 25%-Don't think so. 10%-Maybe. <3%-OK, now I might believe it. Are BD/DVD sales & rentals at 3%? Nope, not even close. 10%? Nope. 25%? Nope, still more than that. So, your talk of all this game-changing ignores the CURRENT reality that disc rental/sales is still very vital to the movie business.

    <edit>Yeah, sales of physical discs only pulled in a paltry $10 Billion out of $30+ total media last year. Waaa! I'd gladly take 1% of 1% of that.</edit>


    And if you think the death of physical media will be a boon to consumers, think again. You STILL will have physical media to deal with, even with streaming (if you ever plan to save any of them), but they will just be on HDDs. Smaller yes, but not infinitesimally so.
    Cloud storage might be an option, but then you'd have to deal with delays for re-downloading/uploading, security, proper IP terms of service, and occasional lockouts due to disconnection. IOW, your media is at someone else's mercy.
    Another thing I have noticed is that while streaming is great for your most popular, current items, after it gets to be 3 years old or so it becomes scarce in the streamingspace - unless you pay $$ for it. Conversely, I can buy an older disc quite easily, and immediately pop it into my player and start watching. Much better selection (of what is important to ME not distributors). There are limits to that for physical media, too, but it's like night & day compared to streaming.

    *************

    Consumer tastes of MANY generations define marketing trends, not just of one generation. Thinking otherwise is short-sighted and ignorant of the history of marketing.

    *************

    @newpball, now you're complaining about higher refresh rates not being good enough? Get real.
    The threshold of fusion is ~12-15Hz, the threshold of stuttering is ~48Hz, and the threshold of flicker is 60-80Hz. Above that, and it all looks natural. How can you get more natural than natural? Maybe for high-speed motion work, but that is a rare topic for consumers (not capture, but cap+playback @ high speed). Seems like you're just about things never being good enough for you: Must Raise the Bar AGAIN!

    While it might be probable that manufacturers will raise their refresh rates internally (for subsystem bandwidth reasons), they won't do it just for the fun of it, it will need to have palpable consumer benefit. Your ideas smack of pie in the sky and seem based solely on ego. I would love to see the world to greatly raise their gamut capacity, refresh rate, dynamic range, resolution, etc. but for those attempts to be successful, they have to have the backing of major manufacturers. And for them to get on board, there has to be economic incentive. And for that to happen, there has to be consumer demand. And for that to happen, there has to be stability (because of STANDARDS) and slow-but-steady progression to better media (so they don't economically wear out the consumer) which is tied to content that is already internally engaging but also takes advantage of those newer, better parameters. This kind of change takes TIME. Generations in fact. You are just impatient, putting the cart before the horse and trying to rush things along at your own preferred pace. Not going to happen that way.

    *************

    AFA the 4k spec vs. the UHD spec, that seems already clear: "4k" is for Cinema ONLY. What you watch at home is not a cinema experience, but a home entertainment experience. Cinema = DCI (12bit jp2k), Christie/Barco/Sony projectors, very dark special-purpose rooms, constant height, multiple (often 11+) full-range speakers and 1000Watt/ch+ amps, and more.
    My guess is that most producers will take their DCI masters and either crop or resize them to match the UHD spec (just like they've cropped/resized to match the HD spec). Luckily, the crop or resize would/should be much less invasive than in the past.
    Example: to go from DCI flat 1.85:1 4k (aka 3996x2160) to UHD 16:9 (aka 3840x2160), you would only need to crop 78 pixels per side. Or if you didn't want to crop (wanted to keep the 1.85:1 AR), you could letterbox by resizing to 3840x2076 and pad 42 black pixels on top & bottom. Either way, it's only a ~3.9% difference.

    Scott
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  24. Originally Posted by newpball View Post
    Wait till you meet some members who think that 32 bit XP computers and standard definition video on old CRTs is really all we need.
    That's awesome and so true! I have already met at least one. I love how this thread inspired you to change your profile picture.

    Anyway, I am actually pretty excited about this because I think it means we will actually start seeing UHD content make its way into homes. And once that occurs I can start authoring my own.
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  25. Scott, you are conflating two different things that I said here. I never said renting DVD or BD was dieing or becoming a niche market. In fact I said that DVD were still very prominent in the rental space, just go to your local redbox and see for yourself. What I said, which was followed up by others who admittedly aren't part of the 20 something gen, is that owning movies on DVD or BD is dieing. But don't take my word for it. Search the web. But I am not sure why it even matters anyway. Who cares if the ownership model of movies changes over the next decade or two? Let's talk about UHD for BD shall we?

    EDIT: Regarding the 4K spec, I think it is just a matter of time before we see 4K TVs. And then 4K spec for BD.
    Last edited by SameSelf; 14th May 2015 at 17:45.
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    Originally Posted by SameSelf View Post
    I think it is just a matter of time before we see 4K TVs....
    4K TVs are on the market for quite some time now.

    If instead you mean 4K OTA or cable broadcasting then, good luck, not in this decade! But you will get it through the internet, it is already happening on a small scale

    Stuffy old broadcast engineers still fiddle with 1080i60 and 720p30 as if it is state of the art while Joe six pack is already playing with 1080p60 and 4K!

    Actually I am surprised they are not foaming at the mouth that Rec.2020 disallows interlaced video.

    Last edited by newpball; 14th May 2015 at 18:02.
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    @SameSelf, I HAVE looked it up on the web. Sales are declining, but they aren't "DEAD" by any means. But you SHOULD be concerned about the ownership model if you don't want "your" movie collection to not be ephemeral.

    No, we will NOT see a true 4k spec for TV. Hollywood, etc. will/do use 5K+ monitors and DCI projectors to do their post production & quality control. They will never be caught dead allowing true full 4k (displays or content) to be given to the masses: they equate that to killing the golden goose by giving it away.

    BD isn't DCI and never will be. It's all about Home Entertainment (consumer video).

    "4k" (UHD) OTA/cable has many hurdles to jump before it becomes viable - while still retaining some amount of quality, but so does 4k/UHD internet streaming.

    @newpball, if you are surprised at rec2020 disallowing interlacing, you still don't understand how it all works! rec2020 is ONLY going to be used for 4k/UHD material. HD & SD material will still make use of their current situation (rec709 or 601, interlaced or not). Considering that all the known sources for creation of 4k/UHD material consists of a handful of cameras (all of which only shoot 4k/UHD in progressive mode) and a handful of 4k scanners (capturing cinema which is inherently progressive), and CGI renders, it only makes sense. You don't create an option in a new standard when there aren't, nor will be, any exceptions that exemplify that option.
    I would have been surprised that rec2020 didn't support 8bit imaging (since there are already 4k cameras out there that still shoot 8bit), but then realized that the wider gamut of rec2020 would stretch the stepsize of 8bit too thin and would cause obvious posterization on most material. So my guess is there will be some 4k/UHD material that records still using rec709, and would require a transform to map it to rec2020, should it need to be edited along with existing rec2020 material. rec2020 mandates UHD, but UHD doesn't always mandate rec2020 (though most will transition into being rec2020 compliant).

    Scott
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    Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    Considering that all the known sources for creation of 4k/UHD material consists of a handful of cameras (all of which only shoot 4k/UHD in progressive mode) and a handful of 4k scanners (capturing cinema which is inherently progressive), and CGI renders, it only makes sense.
    Well I totally agree with that.

    The problem is often that "makes sense" is not the driving motivator for why things are done or not done. I am sure that as we speak some brilliant mind is trying hard to find arguments to creep in 2160i60 for broadcast.

    But I hope you are right and that we finally make interlaced video recording a relic of the past.

    But I am not holding my breath.

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  29. Personal preferences and "Hollywood boxes" or perhaps "delivery" boxes are no longer required to match. Camcorder or camera formats does not have to match with those specs also.

    I do not get this heated discussion in here especially coming from video guys. One can get this device (when prices would drop enough) to watch movies from store or rent them. Because you can have a digital player of preference that you can put into your shirt pocket that would play anything.
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  30. Originally Posted by Cornucopia View Post
    @SameSelf, I HAVE looked it up on the web. Sales are declining, but they aren't "DEAD" by any means. But you SHOULD be concerned about the ownership model if you don't want "your" movie collection to not be ephemeral.

    No, we will NOT see a true 4k spec for TV. Hollywood, etc. will/do use 5K+ monitors and DCI projectors to do their post production & quality control. They will never be caught dead allowing true full 4k (displays or content) to be given to the masses: they equate that to killing the golden goose by giving it away.
    Never said I wasn't concerned about the ownership model, just tired of getting dragged into off topic debates. But trust me, my thoughts on the matter are much more nuanced and in depth than I have communicated here. So if you feel a strong need to discuss I suggest you start a new thread.

    As for studios not wanting 4K to find its way into the home and hence into the BD spec, they must be freaking about Samsung's or LG's 8K tv? Those things make 4K, 5K even, look amateurish at best, for losers at worst. The genie is out of the bottle, although I am sure the studios would love to stuff it back in.
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