VHS to digital - Hardware missing link?

[AussieDOOS]

Hey all – I have a hardware question.

I’m buying a new computer soon (likely iMac) and think it’s a good opportunity to get old family movies into digital. My videos are PAL format VHS from Australia but I’ve since moved to North America so I have access to good hardware over here. My objective is to capture all these videos -> do some very simple editing for snow/breaks in recordings -> then basic authoring either into files or DVD.

I have done plenty of reading on this forum and digitalfaqs on VHS to digital capture, and even did some way back using an old ViVo-capable graphics card with VirtualDub, with decent results. I am expecting to use WinDV/VirtualDub or Premiere Elements (or similar) to do lossless/near lossless capture. I have read about how devices like the Canopus ADVCS have their pluses but are essentially old DV tech and lossy, and in particular noticed the post from lordsmurf about how they come from an era ”before it was possible to easily achieve high quality uncompressed and lossless AVI capturing”.

The question for me right now is – how to get the video and audio in a lossless/near-lossless format, into my iMac machine? I haven't found a simple schematic on the complete journey from VCR to hard disk for both audio and video. If I go for an external TBC option, like the AVToolbox 8710, that will handle video only and still has an RCA/S-video output, so what would be recommended as the next step in the chain to get the video & audio feeding into my iMac – some kind of Firewire/USB device like an Elgato or Hauppauge?

Summary:
Video source: PAL VHS tapes played on a recent LG VCR/DVD combo drive (Yes I know it's not a $1,000 JVC, but I seem to have missed that boat and the quality on this isn't bad)
Capture device: ????
Capture destination: iMac HDD (or PC if an iMac really isn't suitable)

The options for the “???” part to me seem to be:

1) Buy an all in one solution like a Grass Valley ADVC-55 or 110. Simple, has a lot of good reviews online but lacks TBC and may run into issues on the more average parts of my video feed.
2) Buy a TBC like the 8710 which will help clean up source video to some extent, but then will need an additional piece of gear to get the video/audio onto a hard drive. What would be the best options of devices and what are the best current places to buy in the US?

Having watched these camcorder videos since the late 80s I am used to some artifacts, bad cuts and tracking issues – while I want to capture them well, I am not fussed if the quality isn’t perfect. It’s about getting them captured digitally to a reasonable level, and doing very simple edits.

On a positive note, it’s great to see this forum still running – I made plenty of use of it way back in 2003 when I was messing around capping live TV and VHS…

[hech54]

Your biggest hurdle is going to be capturing PAL in an NTSC environment. As long as you own a genuine PAL VHS machine it should be pretty straight forward. Believe it or not the other hurdle is your Mac but only because most of the free, cool video "manipulation" toys seem to be PC based.

[AussieDOOS]

Thanks hech54 - PAL shouldn't be an issue as my VHS machine reads that format. I could also beg/borrow a PC for the capturing process and leave the editing to the Mac if needed.

The real gap for me is in what tech to use between VHS machine and computer, to get a good capture of video and audio. All-in-one solution (Grass Valley), vs. an external TBC + "something" for a near-lossless capture.. I need to know what the "something" would be if I go that route.

[hech54]

Thanks hech54 - PAL shouldn't be an issue as my VHS machine reads that format.

I don't mean to be a jerk or imply anything but....."VHS machine reads that format" does not instill confidence.

Unless the VCR has SCART outputs on the back of it.....you are probably in for some serious heartache.

[AussieDOOS]

It's a VCR/DVD combo purchased in Australia, which I have used to successfully play PAL-format tapes from Australia, and it has HDMI and the usual RCA connectors as well. It doesn't have a SCART output and I don't need one as that's just a European variant.

Does that improve "confidence" somewhat?

It would be great if the focus could be placed on answering the core question from my post - how to get a good link between the VCR and computer, lossless or otherwise.

[manono]

The real gap for me is in what tech to use between VHS machine and computer, to get a good capture of video and audio.

There are several decent USB capture devices available, ones such as these:

http://www.amazon.com/Diamond-Camcorders-supporting-composite-connection/dp/B000VM60I8/

http://www.amazon.com/Hauppauge-610-USB-Live-Digitizer-Capture/dp/B0036VO2BI/

Or you can go with a capture card or a Canopus box.

...vs. an external TBC + "something" for a near-lossless capture.

Unless you're trying to cap macrovision-protected tapes, more important than an external full frame TBC such as the 8710 is a line TBC found either in a good VCR or added to the chain, perhaps in the form of a DVD recorder in pass-through mode.

[Cornucopia]

You need to find out if your deck is truly CONVERTING PAL->NTSC, or rather (and much more likely) is modifying PAL to NTSC rates (aka PAL60), or even is just doing a PASSTHROUGH (and your TV is capable of displaying PAL video unmolested - rare in NorAm). Playing is NOT the same thing as capturing, and what plays OK may not be capturable without hardware that is totally PAL-compatible throughout the chain,

Scott

[AussieDOOS]

You need to find out if your deck is truly CONVERTING PAL->NTSC, or rather (and much more likely) is modifying PAL to NTSC rates (aka PAL60), or even is just doing a PASSTHROUGH (and your TV is capable of displaying PAL video unmolested - rare in NorAm). Playing is NOT the same thing as capturing, and what plays OK may not be capturable without hardware that is totally PAL-compatible throughout the chain,

Scott

Scott - just checking, will these differences in what the VCR is doing with the signal make a difference to the choice of device if it states that it is both PAL/NTSC compatible? (such as the Canopus or 8710?)

Cheers

[Brad]

It's a VCR/DVD combo purchased in Australia, which I have used to successfully play PAL-format tapes from Australia, and it has HDMI

It may help if you're able to tell us the model number.

If the VHS signal can be viewed over HDMI (not all combos support this), and if you're happy with the quality of the HDMI image on your TV, my recommendation would be to capture that. Then you won't have to deal with TBCs.

[AussieDOOS]

It's an LG RC689D - not quite as good as the S-VHS machines mentioned around here. But yes, it does have an HDMI output and does a decent picture on a TV. I hadn't heard of the option of capturing off a TV, good to know it exists. What would be the process there?

Also, if I still want to go with the TBC option, can you let me know what's the best to take the signal from that, plus audio, to my PC/Mac?

[hech54]

I hadn't heard of the option of capturing off a TV, good to know it exists. What would be the process there

You are not really capturing off of the TV, you still capturing BEFORE the signal gets to the TV.....via HDMI. My personal preference would be to make sure the HDMI capture device(if you choose to go that route) is able to capture in 720 x 576 and not mess with any kind of upscaling type of nonsense.

[hech54]

I also read that this LG you own may automatically upscale everything when HDMI is involved(?)....that is not a route I would choose to go personally.
I personally would skip the capture idea and record to DVD in the highest quality mode that the machine has. I do that all of the time with my old Medion/LG clone.
Does this thing record to DVD?.....not sure.

[AussieDOOS]

Does this thing record to DVD?.....not sure.

Yup it does record to DVD, and will dub across from VHS using variable bitrate compression (max quality setting gives about 1 hour per 4.7GB DVD). That could work - the only catch is, for doing my basic edits, is having to use a compressed .vob file like this going to be an issue?

The manual doesn't say a whole lot about the upscaling process, just that it does 1080p upscaling. There doesn't seem to be a setting to switch on/off but I can check the menus. In any case, wouldn't this upscaling only be occurring if I use a digital (HDMI) connection, not the RCA connection?

[hech54]

Yup it does record to DVD, and will dub across from VHS using variable bitrate compression (max quality setting gives about 1 hour per 4.7GB DVD). That could work - the only catch is, for doing my basic edits, is having to use a compressed .vob file like this going to be an issue?

VOB files are just MPEG2 video wrapped in a VOB container.....TONS of free editors for MPEG2.

The manual doesn't say a whole lot about the upscaling process, just that it does 1080p upscaling. There doesn't seem to be a setting to switch on/off but I can check the menus. In any case, wouldn't this upscaling only be occurring if I use a digital (HDMI) connection, not the RCA connection?

Yea.....I don't think it's possible to upscale via RCA. If your capturing choices are upscaled (only) output via HDMI or RCA/cinch?......I'd just go the 1 hour DVD recorder mode myself. Just don't wait too long, combo machines aren't built for longevity.

[Brad]

Disabling upscaling doesn't look like an On/Off switch in the options. What you're looking for in the manual is that it supports output at 576 over HDMI; ideally 576i so that you're not locked into their deinterlacing.

This is on page 15 of the manual, the one that describes how to hook it up using an HDMI connection. It does allow 576i output.

[AussieDOOS]

OK, so it looks like the straight dub from VCR->DVD is one easy option, even if I was originally hoping not to be editing a compressed MPEG2.

hech54, are you not keen on the capture approach because of potential problems with the PAL format?

[Cornucopia]

Disabling upscaling doesn't look like an On/Off switch in the options. What you're looking for in the manual is that it supports output at 576 over HDMI; ideally 576i so that you're not locked into their deinterlacing.

This is on page 15 of the manual, the one that describes how to hook it up using an HDMI connection. It does allow 576i output.

Yeah, but HDMI uses conversations between the source & the sink to determine transmitted screen size. If the source allows 576i output, but the sink doesn't support that as an input option, the source will fall back to another choice. So they BOTH have to be ok with 576i.
With composite, you're already locked in to 576i anyway.

*********

I'm guessing hech54's reticence for other forms of capture is more about the Cost of Effort vs. Benefit being skewed toward the "Cost" side for VHS materials, unless you are a stickler for highest optimum quality captures. Even then...

Scott

[Brad]

Hmm, I don't see the relevance. He doesn't have a capture device yet, so yes he would have to ensure that whatever he buys could accept 576i HDMI input.

[Cornucopia]

yeah..it was a reminder in addition to a clarification. Pretty relevant. He DOES need to ensure that feature when the time comes, because just getting a 576i-capable source won't cut it.

Scott

[hech54]

OK, so it looks like the straight dub from VCR->DVD is one easy option, even if I was originally hoping not to be editing a compressed MPEG2.

hech54, are you not keen on the capture approach because of potential problems with the PAL format?

I own two Hauppauge capture devices, the famous PVR-350 card and the famous USB Live 2 ( I say famous because I love them)...
I also often use my Medion/LG clone DVD recorder in XP/1 hour mode. The recordings are fantastic, but I also have two very nice VCRs, and one of them is an S-VHS machine.
My Medion's DVD burner is long since dead but the built-in hard drive still works of course....AND the older LG/Medion recorders record as straight MPEG2 TS files so whatever I record can be transferred to my computer relatively easily.

I know my PAL/NTSC stuff. I grew up in America being one of the very few American John Farnham fans. Watching his concerts on VHS was quite challenging to say the least...
I now live in Europe....I've experienced NTSC/PAL pain in both directions. I've been here for over 10 years and only in the past few years have I been able to capture NTSC in a PAL environment. It took that long to find the right tools/software.....so yes I am concerned with your PAL/NTSC situation.

[2Bdecided]

OK, so it looks like the straight dub from VCR->DVD is one easy option, even if I was originally hoping not to be editing a compressed MPEG2.

The kind of simple cut/paste editing you mentioned can be performed on MPEG-2 video losslessly using VideoReDo.

If your VHS/DVD combo produces DVDs at a quality you are happy with, use that. Given that you want DVDs, your device produces DVDs, and you didn't mention anything other than simple cut/paste editing, there is no reason to look at anything else UNLESS you want (possibly) better quality by using a different deck, doing some restoration, and/or using a different (software) MPEG-2 encoder.

Cheers,
David.