V-Nova a new video codec 50% more efficient than hevc

[Cornucopia]

...they fed up with HEVC licensing...

Thanks for agreeing with me. (underscore added)

***************************

If this thread were truly about accurate reporting, it would simply be called "V-Nova video codec press releases". Yet, there is this continued tendency by you and Stears555 and others to hype Perseus to the denigration of HEVC, all without (independently provable) FACTS.

Scott

[david55]

...they fed up with HEVC licensing...

Thanks for agreeing with me. (underscore added)

***************************

If this thread were truly about accurate reporting, it would simply be called "V-Nova video codec press releases". Yet, there is this continued tendency by you and Stears555 and others to hype Perseus to the denigration of HEVC, all without (independently provable) FACTS.

Scott

I don't know about you but I have high respect for companies like Nvidia , NTT DATA , Alcatel-Lucent , airbus , Hitachi and take their words about v-nova very seriously and assume their relation with v-nova to be based on hard facts and very serious evaluation of PERSEUS, so I don't consider reporting about their relation to be hyping .

[PuzZLeR]

To V-Nova's "high fives":

Understand that many of us here have been through this song and dance a number of times about an exciting new codec that turned out to be false, or just hype, or an unfulfilled delivery, or, if brought forward, turned out to be something with no real advantage or just blurs/pixelates video badly in an effort to "compress".

I'd be just as excited as anyone of something like this if true, but until an encoder/decoder solution (as mentioned earlier) is available, I'm tuning out, and feel the same sentiment from most of us here too.

Even if the software is handicapped or watermarked in some way of protection, that's fine. As long as we see proof of something.

You got my attention somewhat, enough to post here, I admit. But, until we see proof of something, and only through an encoder/decoder solution, I'm now back out of this thread. My regards to the cute happy people in the pix from me.

[david55]

UK mobile giant EE revealing it has been conducting trials of a video compression technology developed by V-Nova .
http://www.lightreading.com/video/4k-8k-video/ee-trials-uhd-service-on-4g-network/d/d-..._mc=RSS_LR_EDT

V-Nova, EE test 4K video over 4G network
http://www.platformpr.com/v-nova-and-ee-show-4k-video-over-4g-with-unique-perseus-comp...on-technology/
http://www.telecompaper.com/news/v-nova-ee-test-4k-video-over-4g-network--1101763

[david55]

Divitel and V-NOVA enter into strategic partnership.
http://divitel.com/latest-news-and-thinking/news/divitel-and-v-nova-enter-strategic-partnership.html

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

V-Nova, the video and imaging processing hardware and software company, has entered into a strategic partnership with systems architect Qvest Media
http://www.tvbeurope.com/strategic-deal-secured-v-nova/
https://www.qvestmedia.com/en/

------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

V-Nova Integrates Paradigm-Shifting PERSEUS® Video Compression Technology with Zenium Workflow Manager from Imagine Communications
http://www.businesswire.com/news/home/20150911005024/en/V-Nova-Integrates-Paradigm-Shi...y#.VfLIlHa0Kks
http://www.imaginecommunications.com/

[david55]

Finally first taste of PERSEUS Video Compression by EE’s head of video strategy Andy Stagg



Stagg said: “We’ve been watching this Full HD video for the entire journey, from central London to here... we’ve seen no interruption in service. We’ve seen no stalling, no reduction in quality. It’s just been a fantastic experience the whole way.”
The 90-mile trip saw signal handed over across over 40 EE masts with no interruptions, meaning unless your train passes through a tunnel, this technology ought to allow for a more enjoyable commute. In deepest darkest central southern England, where you can only get 300kbps down, that’s still enough for Perseus to comfortably deliver 720p HD video, which, depending on how old your phone is, will probably be enough.

https://recombu.com/digital/article/4k-video-over-4g-ee-v-nova-sony-z5-premium

[gonca]

720p HD video, which, depending on how old your phone is, will probably be enough.

So this great codec is for screens the size of a phone.
No comparisons, no independent tests.
Apart from a small number of companies licensing it just in case the rest of the media "giants" are all EU based. Smells like hedging your bets just in case, and good politics.

[Cornucopia]

Still not really a "taste", as that would require end users able to see for themselves.
Just another weak promo tease where we see, in this NON-perseus-based demo, a quick-flash edit of a number of background monitors allegedly/purportedly exhibiting stuff being run through perseus, mixed with a few quick-pans of people using their phones for viewing supposedly perseus video. Phones!
Of course the fact that there are NO consumer phones in existence which include parallel GPU-based decoding of perseus built-in (which V-nova themselves have stated is one of the main things that gives the codec an edge over competitors).
So either they are LYING, boasting beyond their ability, or using cheats which they don't explain. At best, they are holding back vital information.

Plus, as has already been discussed, on small devices, higher resolutions might not even be noticeable enough. And if it comes down to 480p using AVC vs. 720p using perseus (on small devices at lower bitrates), there will be millions of people who would be able to take advantage of AVC who would not even consider buying into perseus. (I guarantee you that you would have to buy/license it).

Another thing to consider on Larger devices: the big benefit to consumers in the future is not going to be simply 4k, but 4k+HDR+WCG. If perseus hasn't been built with those extensions in mind (which HEVC has, btw), any advantage they were going to claim would go down the tubes (pun intended).

Again, these are press release cheerleading promos that are geared to EU-centric B2B and middleware infrastructure audiences, NOT worldwide end consumers.


Scott

[david55]

Plus, as has already been discussed, on small devices, higher resolutions might not even be noticeable enough. And if it comes down to 480p using AVC vs. 720p using perseus (on small devices at lower bitrates), there will be millions of people who would be able to take advantage of AVC who would not even consider buying into perseus. (I guarantee you that you would have to buy/license it).

Scott

If PERSEUS can really stand up to scrutiny no one would consider using AVC that has many cost and is less efficient compared to PERSEUS that according to V-NOVA has a single cost cheaper than MPEG LA licensing cost .

[Cornucopia]

Every codec choice has to do with a balancing act between Quality+Efficiency vs. Cost+Complexity(incl. Delay). Even if their claims of efficiency are verifiably true, it is offset by cost & complexity. Just as MPEG2>MPEG1 in complexity (+Q+E+C+D), and MPEG4(ASP)>MPEG2 and AVC>MPEG4(ASP) and HEVC>AVC - perseus cannot just pull a rabbit out of thin air: it needs the hat (more powerful decoding). This is a scientific fact based on immutable physical laws.

Users don't wake up one morning and find that all their devices have turned perseus-enabled; ANY uptake is going to be a LONG, SLOW transition. And at the beginning (and even beyond the middle) of that transtition, there WILL be masses upon masses of people that wouldn't give perseus a chance. They just don't have the money, nor want to be bothered.

Perseus costing cheaper than MPEG LA (for AVC) - ha! It may happen way down the road, but don't hold your breath on that one. Costing less than HEVC, that's a current possibility (but that's exactly what those "web giants" mentioned in post #53 above will be pushing to revise).

Honestly, your naive lack of skepticism is mind boggling (assuming you're as unbiased as you claim).

Scott

[david55]

Every codec choice has to do with a balancing act between Quality+Efficiency vs. Cost+Complexity(incl. Delay). Even if their claims of efficiency are verifiably true, it is offset by cost & complexity. Just as MPEG2>MPEG1 in complexity (+Q+E+C+D), and MPEG4(ASP)>MPEG2 and AVC>MPEG4(ASP) and HEVC>AVC - perseus cannot just pull a rabbit out of thin air: it needs the hat (more powerful decoding). This is a scientific fact based on immutable physical laws.

Users don't wake up one morning and find that all their devices have turned perseus-enabled; ANY uptake is going to be a LONG, SLOW transition. And at the beginning (and even beyond the middle) of that transtition, there WILL be masses of people that wouldn't give perseus a chance. They just don't have the money, nor want to be bothered.

Perseus costing cheaper than MPEG LA (for AVC) - ha! It may happen way down the road, but don't hold your breath on that one. Costing less than HEVC, that's a current possibility (but that's exactly what those "web giants" mentioned in post #53 above will be pushing to revise).

Honestly, your naive lack of skepticism is mind boggling (assuming you're as unbiased as you claim).

Scott

You can not decide what a new video compression technology can do and can not do without testing it . whole controversy of v-nova is because of their claims (more efficiency -less complexity- less cost - multiple resolution at single stream - deployable at current infrastructure just with software update)that if true will make HEVC obsolete and you saying it can not be done, but they are getting more endorsement every day from respected companies, and funny thing is apparently you decide what is terms of PERSEUS licensing and how much it must cost . only position that I have about v-nova is that if their claims proved to be true that will make HEVC obsolete. only time will tell who is right, we can just follow news and see what happen and agree to disagree .

[poisondeathray]

If PERSEUS can really stand up to scrutiny no one would consider using AVC that has many cost and is less efficient compared to PERSEUS that according to V-NOVA has a single cost cheaper than MPEG LA licensing cost .

You can not decide what a new video compression technology can do and can not do without testing it . whole controversy of v-nova is because of their claims (more efficiency -less complexity- less cost - multiple resolution at single stream - deployable at current infrastructure just with software update)that if true will make HEVC obsolete and you saying it can not be done, but they are getting more endorsement every day from respected companies, and funny thing is apparently you decide what is terms of PERSEUS licensing and how much it must cost . only position that I have about v-nova is that if their claims proved to be true that will make HEVC obsolete. only time will tell who is right, we can just follow news and see what happen and agree to disagree .

Exactly. That's why it's even more worrisome

You would expect people running to dump AVC and HEVC. But the fact that nobody is running to dump AVC or HEVC raises serious concerns. Especially since the ongoing costs will be lower and additional switching costs might be negligible since they claim it can be run on some existing setups already. If even half their claims were true, you would expect a lot more action. That is a serious negative market indicator - those observations alone would massively drop the price of a publicly traded company. What you're seeing is a lot of fence sitting, because nobody knows exactly -"hedging their bets" as said above. And that's from companies that have already seen the insider information and internal testing - another strong sign. If you already know who the "winning horse" is, wouldn't you put more on it? Well why aren't they ? All you're seeing is some minor "strategic partnerships" and "associations" and "plans to integrate". Nothing really huge. That's pure "marketing speak". I haven't seen a big press release about real dollar/euro figures and contracts . That's when you know they're legit and the real thing. Something like Company X builds $100M facility, hires XYZ people, signs contract with XYZ worth $PDQ ...

There is still the patent landmine battle to wage. Sure it's supposed to be innovative, radically different blah blah blah, but don't think for one second that the MPEG-LA gang won't have their lawyers and experts digging into it. Only the laywers win that one.

If you have a cure for cancer, you don't issue a few press releases. You make bigger noise and take the world by storm. If they truly had a winner, they would have leapfrogged everyone already. If they truly had a winner, someone bigger would have bought them out already

I'm rooting for them - I hope they succeed. It's good to have better tech, better innovation and competition to push other companies. Who wouldn't want 50% better compression at lower cost? It's a stupid rhetorical question. But if you "read between the lines" of the press releases - the signs aren't that good.

And you can be sure that the benchmarks coming up this month will be completely closed, completely cherry picked, limited to very specific situations. (I don't really blame them, everyone does it like that) . If you recall the marketing for HEVC - they did the same thing when comparing against AVC, and what is the current reality ? Only in specific situations do their claims hold true or only against specific AVC encoders like the JM reference

[Cornucopia]

Panacea or Snake Oil?
Well, in America, we have a phrase: "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is".

I challenge you to produce a "news release" that is NOT direct from V-nova (or its partners), or a 2nd hand retelling of a press release, that has something actually positive/informative/helpful to say about the meat of this issue...

Closest I found was this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/challenges-new-perseus-compression-codec-salma-asharef and the upshot of that is: "you can't make claims without independent testing to prove them". That was written back in April when the codec was announced and NOTHING has changed on that front. Just what I've been saying.

Scott

[david55]

Panacea or Snake Oil?
Well, in America, we have a phrase: "if it seems too good to be true, it probably is".

I challenge you to produce a "news release" that is NOT direct from V-nova (or its partners), or a 2nd hand retelling of a press release, that has something actually positive/informative/helpful to say about the meat of this issue...

Closest I found was this: https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/challenges-new-perseus-compression-codec-salma-asharef and the upshot of that is: "you can't make claims without independent testing to prove them". That was written back in April when the codec was announced and NOTHING has changed on that front. Just what I've been saying.

Scott

IRT tests show V-Nova PERSEUS® Compression is ready for Contribution prime time
http://www.platformpr.com/irt-tests-show-v-nova-perseus-compression-is-ready-for-contr...1tLck0.twitter

The IRT – (Institut für Rundfunktechnik) the respected principal research arm of German-language public service broadcasters – evaluated PERSEUS against JPEG2000 contribution and production codecs benchmarks at comparable bit-rates.
http://www.v-net.tv/v-nova%E2%80%99s-perseus-codec-passes-irt%E2%80%99s-initial-video-quality-checks

IRT tests V-Nova PERSEUS Compression
http://www.iptv-news.com/2015/09/irt-tests-v-nova-perseus-compression/

https://www.irt.de/en/home.html

[poisondeathray]

IRT tests show V-Nova PERSEUS® Compression is ready for Contribution prime time
http://www.platformpr.com/irt-tests-show-v-nova-perseus-compression-is-ready-for-contr...1tLck0.twitter

The IRT – (Institut für Rundfunktechnik) the respected principal research arm of German-language public service broadcasters – evaluated PERSEUS against JPEG2000 contribution and production codecs benchmarks at comparable bit-rates.
http://www.v-net.tv/v-nova%E2%80%99s-perseus-codec-passes-irt%E2%80%99s-initial-video-quality-checks

IRT tests V-Nova PERSEUS Compression
http://www.iptv-news.com/2015/09/irt-tests-v-nova-perseus-compression/

Thanks, at least a few closed test results trickling out..Too bad they are vague and no real numbers, test parameters or specifics

Pretty much a big failure at intra encoding if it provides "commercially valuable increases in efficiency" but only "challenges AVC-Intra" , an 8 year old technology ( and jpeg2000 is 15 years old) . Was their marketing team asleep on that one ? Where is the positive spin ?

You can be sure if there was something like a 50% improvement even over the old AVC standard (forget about HEVC...) that they would have published it. Lets hope it performs better at the other scenarios other than intra...

Yes, it's supposed to perform better at UHD - but HEVC also does much better with larger CTU/block sizes. That is where HEVC shines and is actually proven to shine.

[Stears555]

IRT tests show V-Nova PERSEUS® Compression is ready for Contribution prime time
http://www.platformpr.com/irt-tests-show-v-nova-perseus-compression-is-ready-for-contr...1tLck0.twitter

The IRT – (Institut für Rundfunktechnik) the respected principal research arm of German-language public service broadcasters – evaluated PERSEUS against JPEG2000 contribution and production codecs benchmarks at comparable bit-rates.
http://www.v-net.tv/v-nova%E2%80%99s-perseus-codec-passes-irt%E2%80%99s-initial-video-quality-checks

IRT tests V-Nova PERSEUS Compression
http://www.iptv-news.com/2015/09/irt-tests-v-nova-perseus-compression/

Thanks, at least a few closed test results trickling out..Too bad they are vague and no real numbers, test parameters or specifics

Pretty much a big failure at intra encoding if it provides "commercially valuable increases in efficiency" but only "challenges AVC-Intra" , an 8 year old technology ( and jpeg2000 is 15 years old) . Was their marketing team asleep on that one ? Where is the positive spin ?

You can be sure if there was something like a 50% improvement even over the old AVC standard (forget about HEVC...) that they would have published it. Lets hope it performs better at the other scenarios other than intra...

Yes, it's supposed to perform better at UHD - but HEVC also does much better with larger CTU/block sizes. That is where HEVC shines and is actually proven to shine.

Wrong. It is firmly better than HEVC, that's why mobil telecommunication providers test it!

[LigH.de]

Are you still chasing the end of the rainbow here?

A luncheon voucher doesn't feed the truly hungry.

[poisondeathray]

Wrong. It is firmly better than HEVC, that's why mobil telecommunication providers test it!

Does the act of testing it make it better ? or do you have the results of the testing hiding somewhere ?

Just because someone tests something, does that make it better ?

If they decide test MPEG2 tomorrow does it suddenly make it better than V-Nova, AVC and HEVC

"Firmly better" in what way? What are the latencies and effect on battery life ? That's important consideration in mobile world. A dedicated fixed function chipset will consume much less energy than doing it in software. If your mobile lasts half as long, or delay in communication from high latencies - do you think it will sell very well ?

Companies test a lot of things. I'm interested in the actual results of the tests if you have them

[david55]

V-NOVA at IBC2015

Alcatel-Lucent show 4k with PERSEUS video compression at 8Mbit/s




elbersrl show P.Link Multicam HD & remote prodution with PERSEUS video compression



NTT Data Booth at IBC showing PERSEUS technology .


Rick Clucas from V-nova talks at Hitachi Booth about PERSEUS technology .


PERSEUS won “Best digital video processing technology” Award from CSI_Magazine at IBC.

[Cornucopia]

Seems to me: more of the same...
V-Nova & partners, still shots, low-complexity/easy-to-encode "picked" video sequences, PR. No meat. Where's the beef?

Real testing would have a shootout between codecs using identical equipment chains and standardized "difficult-to-encode" clips (high motion, high complexity, lots of "noise" possibilities like leaves fluttering, waterfalls; also clips with huge patches of small color gradations to expose posterization, incl. skylines/sunsets), along with the clips' uncompressed sources. And the range of bitrates would be varied, to expose both "sweet spots" and "weak spots".

Scott

[Stears555]

Seems to me: more of the same...
V-Nova & partners, still shots, low-complexity/easy-to-encode "picked" video sequences, PR. No meat. Where's the beef?

Real testing would have a shootout between codecs using identical equipment chains and standardized "difficult-to-encode" clips (high motion, high complexity, lots of "noise" possibilities like leaves fluttering, waterfalls; also clips with huge patches of small color gradations to expose posterization, incl. skylines/sunsets), along with the clips' uncompressed sources. And the range of bitrates would be varied, to expose both "sweet spots" and "weak spots".

Scott

Dear old friend, the resistance is meaningless ))

[Stears555]

Wrong. It is firmly better than HEVC, that's why mobil telecommunication providers test it!

Does the act of testing it make it better ? or do you have the results of the testing hiding somewhere ?

Just because someone tests something, does that make it better ?

If they decide test MPEG2 tomorrow does it suddenly make it better than V-Nova, AVC and HEVC

"Firmly better" in what way? What are the latencies and effect on battery life ? That's important consideration in mobile world. A dedicated fixed function chipset will consume much less energy than doing it in software. If your mobile lasts half as long, or delay in communication from high latencies - do you think it will sell very well ?

Companies test a lot of things. I'm interested in the actual results of the tests if you have them

All AVC HW decoders can decode the Perseus!

[poisondeathray]

All AVC HW decoders can decode the Perseus!

Wrong.

They claim it works on standard hardware like PC's and servers, that's NOT the same thing as dedicated circuitry.

Fixed function silicon can only decode what it's designed to decode or encode. That's why it's called "fixed function". They can't decode other codecs or do any other operations. It's not a generic CPU ; this is not the same thing.

And if it could decode Perseus, then you'd have a BIG problem. It would mean it's similarity to existing MPEG-LA codecs would be very close, which means lawsuit time.

For example , UHD HEVC decoding on CPU is very intensive, almost 90-100% CPU usage on a quad core. Your battery life would be a few minutes on a phone. That is why dedicated chips are required for mobile markets. Such as the existing ones for AVC and HEVC. V-Nova announced some for STB's (they are going to be much larger, defintely not mobile use) but not for other small devices, at least not yet. If they can develop fixed function silicon, then it might be useful for mobile applications, assuming their claims are even true.

[Stears555]

All AVC HW decoders can decode the Perseus!

Wrong.

They claim it works on standard hardware like PC's and servers, that's NOT the same thing as dedicated circuitry.

Fixed function silicon can only decode what it's designed to decode or encode. That's why it's called "fixed function". They can't decode other codecs or do any other operations. It's not a generic CPU ; this is not the same thing.

And if it could decode Perseus, then you'd have a BIG problem. It would mean it's similarity to existing MPEG-LA codecs would be very close, which means lawsuit time.

For example , UHD HEVC decoding on CPU is very intensive, almost 90-100% CPU usage on a quad core. Your battery life would be a few minutes on a phone. That is why dedicated chips are required for mobile markets. Such as the existing ones for AVC and HEVC. V-Nova announced some for STB's (they are going to be much larger, defintely not mobile use) but not for other small devices, at least not yet. If they can develop fixed function silicon, then it might be useful for mobile applications, assuming their claims are even true.

For example: CUDA has no fixed functions. I don't think that fixed funcions are so fixed as you imagine. Ever hardware have an own little margin. That's why they said, a simple firmware can solve this problem in the existing HW systems.

[poisondeathray]

For example: CUDA has no fixed functions. I don't think that fixed funcions are so fixed as you imagine. Ever hardware have an own little margin. That's why they said, a simple firmware can solve this problem in the existing HW systems.

CUDA isn't fixed function silicon.

CUDA runs on CUDA cores . There is a programmable API, it's very flexible can do many things, such as games , physics simulations, 3d acceleration , filters, AA, resize , etc.. It's more similar to a CPU in versatility , not fixed function silicon. The equivalent for Nvidia would be the SIP core, which provides the fixed function decoding for PureVideo HW acceleration for MPEG2, AVC, HEVC etc... ie. that is separate dedicated silicon that only does one or two things, separate from the "CUDA cores" . You can program CUDA cores to encode/decode just like you could use a CPU and software - but they would do so less efficiently than the PureVideo SIP

Fixed function silicon can only very few things (what it's designed to do) , not very flexible, but it's very good at what it's supposed to do with very low power consumption . One of the "costs" of flexibility is less efficiency, higher power consumption

Even with AVC, if you try to decode it non dedicated HW or SW, it will be 5-10x more power consumption than with dedicated circuitry.


It would be a bigger problem if you could get existing fixed function silicon to decode perseus - this would mean similarities to existing codecs and big lawsuits. They would never even get started. All their time and money would be spent in courts.

[Cornucopia]

Yes, they can't have their cake and eat it too. And you don't get something for nothing.

Scott

[Stears555]

Yes, they can't have their cake and eat it too. And you don't get something for nothing.

Scott

Whether you like it or not, PERSEUS based on existing HW!

Read: http://www.tvbeurope.com/v-novas-perseus-ready-prime-time-tier-1-partnerships-industry-awards/

[Stears555]

http://www.v-net.tv/perseus-does-not-disrupt-compression-ecosystem-or-hevc-upgrade-plans

HEVC proved unable to compete in video quality

[Cornucopia]

More of the same one-sided, undetailed, PR non-news. But with a hint of backpedaling.
Nothing "proven" about it. Nothing to dissuade my assertion that "the emporer's clothes are missing".

Interesting that my quoted warning citation was referenced...

Scott

[Stears555]

More of the same one-sided, undetailed, PR non-news. But with a hint of backpedaling.
Nothing "proven" about it. Nothing to dissuade my assertion that "the emporer's clothes are missing".

Interesting that my quoted warning citation was referenced...

Scott

The ongoing successful tests of well known companies are not enough for you?

It is similar to the discussion of propeller driven airplanes VS jet airplanes... There were oldschool supporters of the superiority of propeller driven airplanes in the late 1940s...