Advice on converting from HD to SD...best settings/programs to use

[underthemountain]

Hi all!

Got some wonderful advice here recently on how to handle a sticky situation, but this time I need some technical advice. I borrowed a SD (standard Definition) DVD concert video from a friend who plays for an honors chorus to see how we could improve our choral video work and was surprised to see that their video is very sharp compared to ours. We are using Power Director 13 for our editing. Our videos are shot either with a 4K Sony AX100 (XAVC S 4K/30p) from the back of the room or a PJ790 at the side close up. It looks wonderful in HD. (We trim down and do computer pans with the 4K footage before converting to HD/1K.) Why are we losing so much resolution when we produce a SD DVD? Our SD output is MPEG2, HQ (best quality) 720x480/30i/6.43 bitrate. There is no way to choose anything else. When we do BluRay the output is 1920 x1080/60i. Their SD is at 720x480/30p/5.98bitrate.

Can anyone tell me if I'm losing resolution because of the software? Is it a problem because of progressive (theirs) vs interleaved (ours) Is there any way to fix this or do you have a better converter to recommend? Thanks!

Roxanne

[newpball]

It looks wonderful in HD. (We trim down and do computer pans with the 4K footage before converting to HD/1K.) Why are we losing so much resolution when we produce a SD DVD?

Because a DVD is complete crap compared to 4k footage.

Why is that so hard to understand?

I mean if you take a picture with a Canon EOS-1D and then print it halftone in some newspaper would you genuinely be surprised it looks like crap?

Just stick with quality and leave DVDs for legacy footage and nostalgia lovers!
After all it is 2015!

[underthemountain]

Thanks Newpball, but my question is really about comparing 2 SD DVDs. Yes, we all know that 4K is great. We have to distribute SD DVDs to the parents so I want to make them as clear as possible and was wondering if it is my settings or the software than can be improved to get a better quality SD DVD because the other people's SD DVD video looks much clearer than ours.
Roxanne

[newpball]

We have to distribute SD DVDs to the parents .....

And all those parents still have old CRT TVs?

For the price of a few DVDs you can buy this:



http://www.walmart.com/ip/42385150?wmlspartner=wlpa&adid=22222222227031089495&wl0=&wl1...966032&veh=sem

And also you can upload the full 4k to Youtube!
I am sure the parents have at least one computer!

[poisondeathray]

It's difficult to say without examining the actual videos


Yes, it could be encoder used - some encoders are better than others

Yes, it could be the encoding format (interaced vs. progressive) - some playback setups might deinterlace your DVD's, reducing the effective resolution

Yes, it could be the actual shooting technique, lighting conditions - professionally shot footage, well lit, stabilize is easier to compress than jerky , handheld, poorly lit footage

Yes, it could be the editing that you do (the UHD pans interpolation and scaling algorithm used)

[underthemountain]

Hi Poison!
Yes, it could be encoder used - some encoders are better than others
We both used the same encoder- mpeg2.


Yes, it could be the encoding format (interaced vs. progressive) - some playback setups might deinterlace your DVD's, reducing the effective resolution
Yes, I was wondering about this. Do you know of another DVD authoring program that give more choices than Power Director 13?

Yes, it could be the actual shooting technique, lighting conditions - professionally shot footage, well lit, stabilize is easier to compress than jerky , handheld, poorly lit footage
I don't think it's the actual shooting technique. In fact our shooting conditions were much better than the other people had.

Yes, it could be the editing that you do (the UHD pans interpolation and scaling algorithm used)
Hmm, but it is affecting all the footage...not just the parts that we are doing electronic pans with. Some of the footage is straight 1K footage.

Thanks for your help! If you can suggests some tests to do that would be great!
Roxanne

[poisondeathray]

How are you viewing the DVD ? Is it a "normal" DVD player setup ? on a computer ?


1) MPEG2 is just a broad category of compression. There are different types of MPEG2 encoders, some produce higher quality, some lower quality. And different settings can used within each encoder. Just like there are different makes/models of cars. Porsches are usually nicer/better than Kia's

2) The authoring program usually doesn't determine anything about quality. It just puts everything together (ie. it "author" the streams, makes a menu, navigation etc...) . Some programs might combine both encoding and authoring

3) IF PD doesn't give you that option, you can try HCEnc to do the encoding, but it requires avs scripts (a bit of a learning curve). But it can encode NTSC DVD as 29.97p . Or try AVStoDVD which is sort of a GUI and can use HCEnc as an option as well as author a disc with simple menus

[underthemountain]

Hi Poison!
We are viewing them on a computer, but we could watch them on a DVD. Why?
Thank you for explaining and for the suggestions. Thanks for the links to the free software.
Roxanne

[jagabo]

There are many different scaling methods, some sharper than others. Maybe they're using a sharp algorithm like lanczos rather than a not so sharp algorithm like bilinear. Or maybe they're applying an explicit sharpening filter after scaling. Beware that sharper isn't always better. It can result in oversharpening halos and buzzing edges.

[usually_quiet]

We are viewing them on a computer, but we could watch them on a DVD. Why?

A DVD player and TV are likely to do a good job playing DVDs. Some software players don't always handle interlaced video correctly.

[newpball]

We are viewing them on a computer, but we could watch them on a DVD. Why?

A DVD player and TV are likely to do a good job playing DVDs. Some software players don't always handle interlaced video correctly.

The source is not interlaced.

[Cornucopia]

If your source is 30p (as I think it is), keep it at 30p when going to DVD (you can fool/fudge DVDs into accepting 30p). If your source is 60p, it probably depends on whether your footage includes a lot of faster, non-blurred motion: if so, use 30i, if not use 30p or 30i. If your source is a mix, you'll have to figure out which makes the most sense, workflow-wise & quality-wise.

Best practices would suggest that you shoot HD (or 4k), edit HD (or 4k), save & keep a HQ/lossless-encoded HD/4k master. Then, if you need SD copies for DVD (you seem to), do an SD downconversion using something clean & smart like AVISynth, frameserving to a better MPEG2 encoder such as HCEnc. Use 2pass VBR for SD/DVD, setting the max bitrate as ~9Mbps and the average something that fits the disc capacity (given the running time).

PD is passable, but not the best editor. And it is far from the best in its encoder module.

Again, "MPEG2" is a compression standard. You are both encoding to MPEG2, but you are (likely) using different encoders (PD's internal/library encoder?, HCEnc, BBEnc, TMPGEnc, CCE, Mainconcept (licensed to Adobe and many others), Procoder, Panasonic, Sony, Manzanita, ffmpeg/libavcodec, etc). Each has strengths & weaknesses and are geared/optimized towards different types of material or different settings. You are both trying to make a Pinapple Upside-down cake, but you can both approach it using different recipes (some better, some worse) and different skill level (some better, some worse).

If PD cannot provide appropriate choice for your MPEG2 encoding/settings needs, temporarily go to a lossless intermediate version and use a different app/encoder.

Scott

[usually_quiet]

@underthemountain In case you haven't figured it out newpball is a troll, who attempts to disrupt every thread here where DVD authoring, standard definition video, standard video resolutions, and MPEG-2 are discussed because he sees no reason for these things to still be used. Just ignore him.

[underthemountain]

If your source is 30p (as I think it is), keep it at 30p when going to DVD (you can fool/fudge DVDs into accepting 30p). If your source is 60p, it probably depends on whether your footage includes a lot of faster, non-blurred motion: if so, use 30i, if not use 30p or 30i. If your source is a mix, you'll have to figure out which makes the most sense, workflow-wise & quality-wise.

Best practices would suggest that you shoot HD (or 4k), edit HD (or 4k), save & keep a HQ/lossless-encoded HD/4k master. Then, if you need SD copies for DVD (you seem to), do an SD downconversion using something clean & smart like AVISynth, frameserving to a better MPEG2 encoder such as HCEnc. Use 2pass VBR for SD/DVD, setting the max bitrate as ~9Mbps and the average something that fits the disc capacity (given the running time).

PD is passable, but not the best editor. And it is far from the best in its encoder module.

Again, "MPEG2" is a compression standard. You are both encoding to MPEG2, but you are (likely) using different encoders (PD's internal/library encoder?, HCEnc, BBEnc, TMPGEnc, CCE, Mainconcept (licensed to Adobe and many others), Procoder, Panasonic, Sony, Manzanita, ffmpeg/libavcodec, etc). Each has strengths & weaknesses and are geared/optimized towards different types of material or different settings. You are both trying to make a Pinapple Upside-down cake, but you can both approach it using different recipes (some better, some worse) and different skill level (some better, some worse).

If PD cannot provide appropriate choice for your MPEG2 encoding/settings needs, temporarily go to a lossless intermediate version and use a different app/encoder.

Scott

Hi Scott!
Thank you for your thoughtful reply and explanations. It helped me tremendously. I will give the freeware you suggested soon. There is so much that I don't know. Thanks again for all of your help.
Roxanne

[underthemountain]

@underthemountain In case you haven't figured it out newpball is a troll, who attempts to disrupt every thread here where DVD authoring, standard definition video, standard video resolutions, and MPEG-2 are discussed because he sees no reason for these things to still be used. Just ignore him.

Thanks Usually!
It's ok. I am grateful to those here who have tried to help me tackle this problem. I admit that sometime I wish our chorus would just go with BluRay discs since many people have those players. I guess with SD DVDs we are trying to target what everyone can play.
Roxanne

[underthemountain]

There are many different scaling methods, some sharper than others. Maybe they're using a sharp algorithm like lanczos rather than a not so sharp algorithm like bilinear. Or maybe they're applying an explicit sharpening filter after scaling. Beware that sharper isn't always better. It can result in oversharpening halos and buzzing edges.

Thank you jagabo for these sage words of advice. It is something that I definitely need to keep in mind and will thanks to you!!!
Roxanne

[usually_quiet]

@underthemountain In case you haven't figured it out newpball is a troll, who attempts to disrupt every thread here where DVD authoring, standard definition video, standard video resolutions, and MPEG-2 are discussed because he sees no reason for these things to still be used. Just ignore him.

Thanks Usually!
It's ok. I am grateful to those here who have tried to help me tackle this problem. I admit that sometime I wish our chorus would just go with BluRay discs since many people have those players. I guess with SD DVDs we are trying to target what everyone can play.
Roxanne

Yes, it makes sense to use the format that is playable by the greatest number of people. A fair percentage of the general public, even those with HDTVs, don't have a Blu-Ray player and are in no hurry to get one because DVDs with enough bitrate look pretty good on an HDTV.

[newpball]

@underthemountain In case you haven't figured it out newpball is a troll, who attempts to disrupt every thread here where DVD authoring, standard definition video, standard video resolutions, and MPEG-2 are discussed because he sees no reason for these things to still be used. Just ignore him.

Thanks Usually!
It's ok. I am grateful to those here who have tried to help me tackle this problem. I admit that sometime I wish our chorus would just go with BluRay discs since many people have those players. I guess with SD DVDs we are trying to target what everyone can play.
Roxanne

Then why not put it on Youtube for everybody to see!
You can even load it in full 4k.

And it is even more economical than burning plastic.

[newpball]

DVDs with enough bitrate look pretty good on an HDTV.

It seems that your idea of pretty good when it comes to video quality is miles away from mine.

Having a 4k source intentionally butchered all the way down to DVD quality borders a sacrilegious act.

[Cornucopia]

Out come the meat cleavers again!

Scott

[usually_quiet]

Oh, yes I forgot that newpball hates all optical media, not just DVD. All those damned rules and standards. Youtube butchers every upload when it re-encodes, but that is perfectly acceptable because it is streaming video. LOL

[newpball]

Out come the meat cleavers again!

Scott

How else would you call degrading your source intentionally all the way down from UHD to SD?

Is there absolutely nobody on this forum who shares my sentiment. You buy a 4k camera, record 4k and then out of 'respect' for your customers you force them to only see it in SD? And then on top want advice on improving 'quality'?

[underthemountain]

Hi Newpball!
We do put it on youtube, but we need a way to sell it to the parents too since it generates a profit for the organization and they've decided that a SD DVD is the best way to do it. I'm just trying to find the best way to give them what they want.
Roxanne

[newpball]

Hi Newpball!
We do put it on youtube, but we need a way to sell it to the parents too since it generates a profit for the organization and they've decided that a SD DVD is the best way to do it. I'm just trying to find the best way to give them what they want.
Roxanne

Great you put it on Youtube, in 4k I presume?

With respect to selling the video, tell them that the quality of your recordings vastly surpasses DVD quality. At least offer people a chance to see this in the quality format it deserves.

[underthemountain]

Hi Newpball!
Unfortunately just 1K because much of our video is 1K...we only have a single 4K camera that we use to make the pans and other closeups with. They know, but don't want to offer BluRays right now so we'll just give them the best SD that we can.
Roxanne

[jagabo]

If you posted short samples of the two DVD videos people here can give you some specific advice.

[underthemountain]

Hi Jagabo!
Ok, let me make something and post it on youtube...maybe tonight. I'm at work atm.
Thanks! Roxanne

[usually_quiet]

Hi Newpball!
Unfortunately just 1K because much of our video is 1K...we only have a single 4K camera that we use to make the pans and other closeups with. They know, but don't want to offer BluRays right now so we'll just give them the best SD that we can.
Roxanne

I would agree that uploading 4K to YouTube is not a good use of your time in 2015. Only a small percentage of people living in the US are 4K TV owners at present, and some even don't have enough bandwidth available available from their ISP to stream 4K video.

[usually_quiet]

Hi Jagabo!
Ok, let me make something and post it on youtube...maybe tonight. I'm at work atm.
Thanks! Roxanne

Youtube re-encodes video, so it won't be possible to analyze the clip properly. Please upload clips taken from the DVDs to VideoHelp instead. A minute or two is good enough.

[newpball]

Hi Newpball!
Unfortunately just 1K because much of our video is 1K...we only have a single 4K camera that we use to make the pans and other closeups with. They know, but don't want to offer BluRays right now so we'll just give them the best SD that we can.
Roxanne

I would agree that uploading 4K to YouTube is not a good use of your time in 2015. Only a small percentage of people living in the US are 4K TV owners at present, and some even don't have enough bandwidth available available from their ISP to stream 4K video.

So explain to me how uploading 4k takes more of a person's time than say HD?

When you upload in 4k not only 4k but lower resolutions are automatically available for users to select as well. And what are you going to do a few years from now? Upload it again because more people have 4k? And what about 10 years from now or 20 years?

If you have a 4k source then upload to Youtube in 4k!
It is not more work.