Need advice on how to transition from a volunteer video person to a pro...

[underthemountain]

Hi all!
My husband and I have making my child's chorus' videos for a few years now as volunteers and were thinking of trying to get paid a little for similar work. Our chorus is trying to pay us, but their parent organization has them on a strict budget even though they have sold our DVDs for a profit. We do all the tricks from transitions to post video panning from a 4K camcorder to menus, etc. and our work is good enough that the parent organization posts them on it's Facebook page as well as on the chorus' website...and our choral manager has suggested to us that we strike out on our own to offer our services to other choruses. This idea really appeals to me because not only would it be nice to make some money to maintain our equipment and get new gear, but it would feed our egos a bit.
Anyhow last week we attended a chorus festival that my daughter's group was invited to. We signed on as parent volunteers and took footage of the day including the concert and shared it with the event organizers as our chorus manager promised to them. We also made You tube videos of the combined chorus pieces that we are posting with everyone's permission. (All the kids have signed waivers.) If I had been thinking I would have asked the event organizers in advance if we could sell DVDs of the final video to all the parents, but we didn't. I was planning on giving each of the choruses a finished DVD as goodwill from our chorus to theirs, but at the same time I would like them to know that we are interested in videoing and selling DVDs for them next year. How do I go about this? Is it too late to let them know that if they have interested parents that they can purchase the DVDs for $15 for Blu-ray or $10 for SD? I don't know what the proper protocol is and want to do the right thing.
Thanks! And please don't flame me for not knowing what to do.
underthemountain

[newpball]

The easiest thing to do is to propose they pay you a fixed amount for your video recording and processing work and have them deal with selling the DVDs and BDs. I'd say a few hundred bucks is reasonable.

If it works out great you could do this at other places and if people are very happy you could propose to get a percentage for each DVD or BD they sell.

[budwzr]

You have to kickback to whoever controls the money.

[sophisticles]

Here's my very cynical words of advice, forget about getting paid for doing this. It is very difficult, to impossible, to transition from being a volunteer to a paid pro in any field for a very simple reason, people don't like having to pay for the things they used to get for free.

What you can do from now on is NOT volunteer to do these projects, let them come to you and ask and when they do advise them that you are too busy with other commitments. What this will do is force them to seek someone else to do the job and they will find that they either don't do it as well as you or if they do it as well they will be a fee do. This will in turn build value for your services in their minds and make them amiable to paying you a fee for your time.

This is why I never volunteer, I learned my lesson years ago, no one appreciates it and if/when the time comes that you can't do it anymore you become the bad guy, as if they were doing you a favor by letting you work for free.

[JVRaines]

I don't think it's too late at all. Pitch it to the festival execs as a joint project. They advertise via their contact lists and you supply the DVDs. You might offer to produce some additional promotional material to include on the DVDs in exchange for keeping the revenue. Or you may need to negotiate a split.

[underthemountain]

Thanks for your thoughts all!

newpball: Hmm, I don't think I can ask for $ from the organizers since we were introduced as parent volunteers who would share their footage with the other choruses. It is a good idea for the next festival though.

budwzr: Yes, offering to split the profits might be enough incentive for them to promote it for us.

sophisticles: Our chorus is trying to pay us, but they still are sorting things out. We didn't get into it to make money. It just evolved and we've evolved and the group has grown and so have the gigs and so has the amount of videoing we do now. If push came to shove we probably would continue to volunteer for them and do work on the side. But I think you are right overall, people get used to getting things for free... This said, the pianist from the chorus hired us for her brother's wedding next weekend. She hired us last year for her parents' 50th wedding anniversary.

JVRaines: Thanks for your words of encouragement! What about asking the festival organizers if it would be ok with them if we offered the DVDs for a nominal cost and if they would like some of the profits. Since our chorus introduced us as volunteer parents are we under any obligation to give them a share in the profits?

[Brainiac]

If you anticipate this becoming a business to any degree, consider (if you have not already done so) placing your contact info on the DVDs/Case Inserts and maybe including a business card with distributed DVDs. The DVDs may end up in the hands of people (relatives of the kids, for example), who may ask for your services.

Brainiac

[JVRaines]

Since our chorus introduced us as volunteer parents are we under any obligation to give them a share in the profits?

No, but neither are they obligated to let you distribute video of their show on DVD.

To elaborate, everyone who participated in creating the performance might be considered a joint author for copyright purposes, unless they signed a release giving up their rights. This could include the singers, conductors, accompanists, people who decided on the order of the program, the person who creatively lit the stage, et al., in addition to you and your husband. And it very much includes the composers and arrangers of the music performed (unless it's in the public domain).

So, if you want to distribute copies of your video or exhibit to more than a few people, you need permission of all those other authors.

[underthemountain]

Thank you JV!
That's very interesting. Our chorus has done none of that, except for the fact that we perform at the parent company's venue so they don't have to contact the lighting/sound people. The composers and arrangers are not compensated nor contacted. Most of them are still alive.
Anyhow, I had a talk with our choral director and asked him who owned the video. He said we did, but when I mentioned that I wanted to sell it to our parents for a nominal fee he pulled back and said that I needed permission from the parent organization. I told him that I wanted to ask the festival organizers first because if it was something they wanted to do then they could do the asking. He then countered that we "belonged to them". I don't believe so. I was like any other parent out there and there were plenty at this public event. They all had tripods and a camera. All I had over them was experience and more cameras. A bigger part of why I want to go pro is because I am not happy with how I'm being treated by some of the higher ups our chorus/parent organization. They use our videos on their Facebook without even a thank you email. I am trying to find a way to satisfy my need for some appreciation and get back to my original ideal of sharing the videos with the parents...not making $ off of them.
To top it off that same day I gave him a CD that he requested of our winter concert that he plans to use to get invited to competitions with. It needed to be good, so my husband spent 5+ hours cleaning up the audio-removing sounds where he could, balancing it, sparkle, etc. The choral director was very pleased with the result and sent me a very thankful email (he isn't the problem) and proceeded to say that he'd be copying it and sharing it with the staff and the other choral director that participated in the concert. Why is it ok for him to distribute the audio without permission? I don't think they ever got permission from the other choral director to make the DVD that they sold. And why can he give it to them and not to the parents? Does it mean that if I copy my DVD and give it away it's ok?
Thanks all and sorry for the rant. I'm at the end of my rope and seriously thinking of not volunteering for them anymore.

[budwzr]

Not only are people protected by copyright, so are buildings. You can't distribute a video shot in say, Las Vegas, without paying a fee. The only exception is a news piece or documentary.

Normally, nobody cares until you start making money. Like the recent Marvin Gaye / Pharrel Williams lawsuit.

[underthemountain]

Not only are people protected by copyright, so are buildings. You can't distribute a video shot in say, Las Vegas, without paying a fee. The only exception is a news piece or documentary.

Normally, nobody cares until you start making money. Like the recent Marvin Gaye / Pharrel Williams lawsuit.

Ok, so if I give it away they won't care? If it's a choice between making a few dollars and spending a few to get it to the parents I'd rather do the latter!

[budwzr]

Whoever sues you has to spend money. So the odds are low in this case. But you never know. There's some real a-holes out there. Or someone may have a lawyer in the family.

The bottom line is greed. People get greedy when they see someone making money on something they were involved in.

[budwzr]

If you ever become really successful that's when these claims pop up.

[underthemountain]

Hmm, well the parent organization definitely has money. They are a major entertainment venue. I'm going to try and see if they would let the parents have it at cost rather than asking for $$. The DVDs make $3K/year and they can well afford to not make this profit from our volunteer activities.

[bendixG15]

This whole episode sounds like its more trouble than its worth.

[budwzr]

What it sounds like to me is that there's not enough money involved to pay the workers. All you'll ever get is a big thank you. If they can get the milk free, why buy the cow.

[underthemountain]

That is very true on both counts about it being a lot of trouble and free milk. As I stated before they have enough money to pay the workers. They don't have a budget in place for what we do though. I'm thinking that maybe I should try to have a sit down with both the chorus and the parent organization so that I can fully understand what is going on. That would probably help me to decide on whether to stay or go depending on what they are able to do. Thanks all for helping me. I really appreciate all of your constructive comments.

[JVRaines]

Chiming in a little late here …

Mountain, you need to learn about copyright and the difference between owning a copy (or master) of a recording and owning the intellectual property rights to that recording. Of course you own your videos and you own the copyright to the video production itself, but you don't own copyright to the original expression of other authors that is embodied in your video. This is why professional media producers make EVERYONE sign a release explicitly giving away whatever authorship they may have. Or they pay composers, artists, etc. for a license to use their work.

If you really want to go pro, the first thing you must do (besides learning about copyright) is to set aside your personal umbrage and figure out how to make the situation profitable for yourself and the choral organization. You have to offer something to get something. That's why I suggested you offer a cut or some promo work in exchange for the right to distribute copies.

[underthemountain]

Thanks JV! The choral organization has already figured out how to make it profitable for themselves. The problem is that they don't care to make it profitable for us. It's probably best to walk away at this point and learn from the experience. I can still distribute the DVDs to the various choruses since my chorus already promised that we'd share the footage with them. If those other choruses appreciate it that will be enough for me, though I wish that our chorus would make it available to our parents.

[underthemountain]

Here's my very cynical words of advice, forget about getting paid for doing this. It is very difficult, to impossible, to transition from being a volunteer to a paid pro in any field for a very simple reason, people don't like having to pay for the things they used to get for free.

What you can do from now on is NOT volunteer to do these projects, let them come to you and ask and when they do advise them that you are too busy with other commitments. What this will do is force them to seek someone else to do the job and they will find that they either don't do it as well as you or if they do it as well they will be a fee do. This will in turn build value for your services in their minds and make them amiable to paying you a fee for your time.

This is why I never volunteer, I learned my lesson years ago, no one appreciates it and if/when the time comes that you can't do it anymore you become the bad guy, as if they were doing you a favor by letting you work for free.

Rereading everything here and I think you hit the nail on the head. Thanks for your awesome advice!

[lingyi]

The way I see it, you're focusing on the wrong end of this issue. Your contribution is the production that goes into the final product (DVD / BD), and you may ask to be fairly compensated for that. Put your company name and contact info on the title and end screens and leave the production and sales of the discs to the association.

Let them handle the issues of copyright, performance compensation and "unauthorized" copying. There are numerous threads with video producers (particularly wedding videographers) moaning about how nobody's buying their discs or are copying them. The stock answer is always that they were paid to provide a service and should have asked for a fair compensation upfront for the "service".

Also, as stated above, people are funny. I'd happily make a $10-15 purchase of something that I know the profits will go towards an organization I support, but would think twice if I knew part of the profit is going to someone else (effectively reducing the perceived value of the product).

[lingyi]

A few more thoughts.

Who's to say the $3K the organization makes is pure profit? For example, unless everyone from the person creating the disks, to the person making the sale, to the accountant is working for free, there are overhead expenses that come out of that $3K. You say the organization can afford to lose part of that $3K. Well, what if they decide that want to maintain that $3K by increasing the cost of the disks by what they're compensating you and that in turn decreases the number of disk sales? How are you going to know how many discs are actually sold and you should be compensated for?

You mention their using your videos on Facebook. Do you expect to get compensated for that? Are you willing to submit a Cease and Desist order for something that you don't own the rights to?

Sorry to be so cynical, but you're looking to get into a very volatile business and best get all your facts together (i.e. what the organization's rights and responsibilies are, what your rights and responsibilities are and an iron-clad contract) before make your next step.

Remember, once the genie is out of the bottle, there's no way of putting it back.

[underthemountain]

Hi Lingyi!
Thanks for you thoughtful reply. Fair compensation would be nice. The parent organization is the one receiving the money. We wanted the profits to go back to the chorus, but the parent organization said no to that. I have been involved in many aspects of the DVDs/CDs production so I know the cost. As for Facebook all I wanted was an email thanking me. If you knew how much time we spend as volunteers you'd understand. We video/photograph key rehearsals and all concerts, auditions, picnics and I also organize activities for the kids. The organization used to hire a photographer for our concerts, but stopped once they got a parent volunteer. That other parent has since left. But as you all know videography costs much more and that was never part of their budget. Thanks for your advice. If we do decide to stay we are thinking of having a meeting with both parties to find out their position on things. If they don't value what we do as much as we do then they are free to find someone else. They know the value of our work and if they aren't willing to treat us fairly, not only money-wise, but just as people, then we will walk. It never was about the money. We are well compensated at our day job. It's become about the money because of the way that they treat us. All we wanted was appreciation.