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After my final post last night I had to head off to bed as it was getting late in the UK! I have just taken a look at all the responses and all I can say is thank you to everyone for your efforts. Once I am home from work I'm going to have a detailed look at everything here and post a reply. Until then thanks again you are all so helpful
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Indeed!Originally Posted by pippas
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Yet it originated as SD and its first digital incarnation was as DVD/Mpeg2, and as the source it will never get better than that and in fact would only lose quality if converted.
Scott -
That's true of course.....except that, as this thread has shown, how well the interlacing of this DVD source is coped with is subject to many unknowns within in the replay equipment.Originally Posted by Cornucopia
Of course you need to keep the original files, but if it were me I would convert the mpeg2 to Grass Valley HQX (I realise that's going to be seen as controversial...I just find the high quality intraframe files easier to work with).
Then de-interlace with Yadif, double the frame rate, and re-encode with x.264. Final format?... I prefer mp4, but mkv would also be fine of course.
(Edit ... I was thinking the OP had a PS3 for replay , but looking again I see it is a PS4. As I understand it, you still can't play video from a USB stick on a PS4?... crazy!!)Last edited by pippas; 5th Mar 2015 at 10:41.
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Have you tried connecting the TV and the DVD recorder with either a Scart lead - or an RCA (phono) composite lead (between 'AV2' (TV) and 'line out2' (DVD recorder)).Originally Posted by JonVic
If that looks OK, that would isolate the problem as being introduced by the HDMI connection, and its 'upscaling' functions.... -
Apologies for not posting until now, things have been really busy!
Thanks again for all the advice and for the efforts some of you went to with trying my sample clip.
It's interesting how nice you managed to make it look and by converting it to progressive and doubling the framerate it's amazing how nice you can make this DVD look even though the original footage was in a pretty lossy format. It is softer and some of the detail has been lost of course but I don't think it's too bad and does actually manage to clean up some of the VHS grain to give a somewhat smoother look.
If I were to do this I would obviously need to add my demuxed audio at some point. Will the fact that they have had their framerate doubled mean I have to tweak the audio or can it just be added back in editing software and still be in sync?
As I have said my preferred option was to keep these as DVD's. I appreciate what some of you have said about keeping this footage interlaced and the fact that HDTV's can have trouble with interlaced footage. However the fact remains as pointed out by jagabo that any DVD player should be able to play interlaced footage without combing artifacts. So my thinking is that although my clip seems to have been created correctly, the issue is that I simply should not be seeing what I am seeing. I am getting to the point where it's clear that on the face of it they seem fine but clearly there is something wrong with them. It may be some strange deep-routed issue that nobody here can put their finger on but the fact remains this situation is not right.
It seems that there is not really anywhere else to turn as far as being able to output these as progressive via a player. It looks like 576i is my only output option which doesn't give as good an image as outputting as progressive (interlacing lines aside of course). I have done a bit more testing and 576i is not perfect. It doesn't show much in the way of interlacing lines but I have seen them (albeit fairly mild) on a couple of sections of my home recorded DVD's. I don't see this as too drastic though and I can live with it.
One interesting thing I did notice however was I have a couple of other VHS captures taken from home video tapes. These were filmed on a completely different camera to the one my sample clip was filmed with. They were on video8 and were converted in the early 90's to VHS tape because my mother liked to re-use the video8 tapes. Obviously these are not fantastic quality as they are essentially second generation video tapes. They show what I can only describe as aliasing on horizontal parts of video (railings, signs etc.). Whilst testing I noticed that if I play these from the Sony DVD recorder at 576i via HDMI the aliasing is virtually gone. However if I play them through a SCART lead (also at 576i i assume) the aliasing is worse. Very odd. I remember seeing this on my old CRT and thought it was maybe the old television but it seems SCART is worse for showing aliasing.
Not trying to start a new topic here but thought it was an interesting thing to see, so I will put that to one side as it's not related to the issues I have described here with interlacing.
Well those are my thoughts at this point. Feeling pretty gutted about not being able to get these DVD's to work they way I feel they should. As mentioned earlier in this thread I have a DVD created by someone of an old F1 race and that seems to be able to be outputted via my PS4 at all resolutions and I am not seeing interlacing lines, so obviously there is something up with my recordings. It's very frustrating.
@pippas: Yes I have tried that. You can't output higher than 576i via the SCART lead but I did a test of the footage at 576i through SCART and HDMI and they seemed to give the same result. If anything the SCART seemed to amplify aliasing on edges. -
Doubling framerate doesn't double the duration: 1 sec of 25fps (aka 25 frames) doubled to 50fps becomes 50 frames (still = 1 sec).
What you aren't getting is that we are not seeing a problem with that footage, so the problem is with the hardware (or settings) on your end.
Scott -
Video Restorer
- Jun 2003
- dFAQ.us/lordsmurf
No, wrong.Originally Posted by newpball
@JonVic
Basically you have a good DVD, and bad player and/or TV. To view it decently, you'll need to ruin the DVD quality. So you need to keep the good copy for later, when you have a better TV/player, and watch the crapped-up copy for now.
You just need to deinterlace with QTGMC in Avisynth, and move on.Want my help? Ask here! (not via PM!)
FAQs: Best Blank Discs • Best TBCs • Best VCRs for capture • Restore VHS -
First choice for the best quality result of course, but using QTGMC is a bit of a 'learning curve'.Originally Posted by lordsmurf
Perhaps lowering the bar just a fraction, and using Yadif, might be simpler?..... The QTGMC and Yadif encodes of the OPs sample footage that hello_hello posted in post #26 aren't that different, quality wise...... -
Please demonstrate how we can encode a video in progressive format on a DVD.Originally Posted by lordsmurf
No, wrong.Originally Posted by newpball
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Simple, set up the encoder to encode as progressive 23.976fps (or whatever allowed framerate). It's after the 3:2 pulldown is applied that it then outputs interlaced 29.97fps. I'll include a picture of how to do it using CCE although all MPEG-2 encoders have some way to set the progressive frame flag.Originally Posted by newpball
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Right, so it's encoded interlaced, just what I claimed!Originally Posted by manono
Simple, set up the encoder to encode as progressive 23.976fps (or whatever allowed framerate). It's after the 3:2 pulldown is applied that it then outputs interlaced 29.97fps.Originally Posted by newpball
Are you trying to pull the wool over my eyes or do you not understand what interlaced video means?
The DVD standard requires interlaced video!Last edited by newpball; 8th Mar 2015 at 14:16.
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Did you not read and understand the picture? It sets the prog_frame flag. It's encoded as progressive.Originally Posted by newpball
And I mentioned that afterwards the authored DVD outputs interlaced 29.97fps. All DVD players output 59.94 fields per second (50 fields per second for PAL). But the video itself can be (and often is) encoded as progressive frames. Why are you trying to make this seem difficult?The DVD standard requires interlaced video! -
Any theatrical Hollywood NTSC DVD in the last 10-15 years is encoded progressive. (Progressive content, progressive encoding) . Soft pulldown flags output an interlaced signal (3:2 pulldown) .Originally Posted by newpball
That is not the same thing as encoding interlaced for "24p" (23.976) content. With interlaced encoding for "24p", it's called "hard pulldown" instead of soft pulldown. Extra fields are physically encoded for the 3:2 pulldown. Interlaced encoding is inherently less efficient, but since you are physically encoding 1.25x more fields, it's also less bitrate per field. -
How did you conclude that the majority of films on DVD 10-15 ago was encoded progressive?Originally Posted by poisondeathray
Any theatrical Hollywood NTSC DVD in the last 10-15 years is encoded progressive. (Progressive content, progressive encoding) . Soft pulldown flags output an interlaced signal (3:2 pulldown) .Originally Posted by newpball
That is not the same thing as encoding interlaced for "24p" (23.976) content. With interlaced encoding for "24p", it's called "hard pulldown" instead of soft pulldown. Extra fields are physically encoded for the 3:2 pulldown. Interlaced encoding is inherently less efficient, but since you are physically encoding 1.25x more fields, it's also less bitrate per field.
I do not believe that at all. -
It's easily proven. If speaking about Hollywood-type films it's not just the majority, but the vast majority, more than 99% I would guess. This isn't opinion. You just don't know what you're talking about. Just pick a VOB from a film and run it through any program that gives the encoding information and you'll see. Almost all PAL films on DVD have been encoded as interlaced, but not major films on NTSC DVD. Sure, there are a lot of fly-by-night outfits that do crappy standards conversions or hard-telecine their film sources, but any decent outfit will encode progressive content as progressiveOriginally Posted by newpball
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Just about any MPEG-2 movie I pulled from a VOB needed IVT.Originally Posted by manono
Must be the movies I watch! -
Run the VOB through the Preview in DGIndex. If 'Frame Type' shows as 'Progressive', then it was encoded as progressive, if 'Interlaced', then hard-telecined or truly interlaced. Again, almost all Hollywood-type films are encoded as progressive. For others it depends on the DVD company, mostly. Some films on NTSC DVD are almost all progressive but may drop to video briefly from time to time. Criterion, for example, often has some hard-telecined (Video) frames around chapter stops. A lot of anime is a mix of Progressive and Interlaced.
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newpball
For about 6-7 years I've been making progressive 29.97p DVD's only because my source is 29.97p, and never there was a problem, HcEncoder would encode video as progressive. Then using DVD authoring does not re-encode it. No problem during playback in any DVD player, even European DVD players play it. -
Been doing some more testing of the DVD's tonight and have run into more issues! I wonder if this is relevant to the problems I have been having?
About 5 mins before the clip I posted as a sample there is a section of video where the camera is pointing into the sky. It pans about a bit and the screen if basically full of blue and white sky. I have noticed that when played back on a Toshiba SD1015KB DVD player (that can only output via SCART even though it says 'HI-RESOLUTION PROGRESSIVE' on the top of it) I get pulsing noise on the screen. The best way to describe it is like MPEG artifacts flashing in a routine pattern maybe half a second apart. I have looked closely at this same part of the video on my Sony DVD recorder outputting at 576i via SCART and the PS4 outputting at 480p via HDMI and I can't see this issue. It may be there but it's not as clear or visible to my eyes like it is on the Toshiba. This Toshiba was only cheap and probably isn't very good but I thought this may be relevant.
I do remember seeing something like this years ago when I played these DVD's back on an old version of Cyberlink DVD on my PC but I remember that if played on VLC the issue wasn't there. That only seemed to happen on dark areas of the screen, but this seems to be obvious on brighter sections of the screen I wonder if my high bitrate is causing this on some players or is this something fairly common? -
Most MPEG 2 decoders will perform the pulldown while decompressing frames. This is because the progressive frame rate can be anywhere from 19.98 fps to 29.97 fps before pulldown. The progressive frame rate can vary during the stream, and the stream can switch between progressive (with pulldown) and interlaced encoding. So it's safest to perform pulldown while decoding and produce 29.97 interlaced frames per second as that's where they all meet for NTSC DVD.Originally Posted by newpball
Just about any MPEG-2 movie I pulled from a VOB needed IVT.Originally Posted by manono
Must be the movies I watch! -
As I thought, the 29.97 interlaced was conform the standard and thus mandatory? Am I wrong?Originally Posted by jagabo
Another piece of brilliance I suppose. Why on Earth would an MPEG-2 decompressor on a PC do that?Originally Posted by jagabo
Take a 24P movie, go through great lengths to encode that progressive with a lot of flags, then take the VOB file, extract the MPEG-2 and then the encoder pulls this down to 29.97 interlaced and then you must IVT it back to 24P?
I am lost for words....
MPEG-2 encoded as progressive 24P but pulled down anyway, because well, brilliance I suppose.
Last edited by newpball; 8th Mar 2015 at 18:27.
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Interesting, I learn everyday I suppose.Originally Posted by _Al_
I thought that was completely impossible with a DVD.
Are you sure it is actually on the DVD as 29.97p and not just 59.94 fields with each field recorded at the same moment in time? -
I have just found a really old Cinetec DVD player I bought in about 2005/6. I suddenly remembered it and would you believe it, it was still where I left it! I have just run the DVD on that and it doesn't pulse. It's really really basic and has a problem with the draw when you load the DVD. You have to wait until the draw closes and then give it a whack and it loads
But this player seems to play the same as my other stuff and not pulse. That Toshiba is pretty rubbish, it has struggled with homemade DVD's in the past as far as not wanting to load them. Odd how the Toshiba does this...
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Just noticed these additional comments lordsmurf. Thanks for your input. Do you really consider anything re-encoded from this DVD to be crappy? I was hoping that these re-encodes could provide a viable alternative but it seems from your comments that you see them as poor. That's a shame. I guess it's not as easy as just re-encoding. I thought the re-encoded samples here stood up really well but maybe I am not seeing the quality loss like you? What is it about the re-encode you think makes it look poor?Originally Posted by lordsmurf
No, wrong.Originally Posted by newpball
@JonVic
Basically you have a good DVD, and bad player and/or TV. To view it decently, you'll need to ruin the DVD quality. So you need to keep the good copy for later, when you have a better TV/player, and watch the crapped-up copy for now.
You just need to deinterlace with QTGMC in Avisynth, and move on. -
Almost all DVDs, even the interlaced ones, are encoded by frames. While it's possible to encode fields separately, it's hardly ever done that way. I have also encoded progressive 29.97fps DVDs. No big deal. However, there's a difference between progressive encoding and how it's output by the player. Even progressively encoded material gets output by fields, 59.94 fields per second for NTSC, as I explained earlier. And, yes, each pair of fields is from the same point in time for progressively encoded 29.97fps material.Originally Posted by newpball
Again, run a VOB through the Preview in DGIndex and check the Frame Structure. It'll (almost) always say 'Frame' and not 'Field'. -
Still that does not answer the question why I have to IVTC those "progressively encoded" sources.Originally Posted by manono
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The final analog output for DVD is 59.94 fields per second, the same as all analog NTSC video. The whole DVD spec is based on that output field rate (when the DVD spec was developed nobody had digital TVs, and the industry wasn't concerned about computer playback). If you decode to frames rather than fields you get 29.97 frames per second -- regardless of what the underlying progressive frame rate of the MPEG 2 stream is.Originally Posted by newpball
As I thought, the 29.97 interlaced was conform the standard and thus mandatory? Am I wrong?Originally Posted by jagabo
3:2 pulldown isn't the only possible form of pulldown. You can use 3:2:3:2:2 for ~25 fps to 59.94 fps, 3:3 for 19.98 fps to 29.97 fps, etc. And there's no reason a single DVD couldn't switch between those rates. It's very common for DVDs to consist of mostly 23.976 progressive fps (with 3:2 pulldown flags) with a little 29.97 fps interlaced.
To avoid the possibility of VFR output the decoder performs the pulldown to produce CRF at 29.97 interlaced fps.Originally Posted by newpball
Another piece of brilliance I suppose. Why on Earth would an MPEG-2 decompressor on a PC do that?Originally Posted by jagabo
You can force DgIndex to ignore the pulldown flags and produce progressive frames. Or you can open an MPEG 2 file in VirtualDubMod which ignore pulldown flags and decodes to progressive frames.Last edited by jagabo; 8th Mar 2015 at 19:04.
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It's almost offensive the way you try to make others look like idiots by questioning their proven statements. You're always claiming to be the expert yet you don't have a clue of what you are talking about.Originally Posted by newpball
Yes, you can put true progressive encoded 29.97p without any pulldown flags on DVD and it's perfectly compliant. Since it's already at 29.97 it can be output as 59.94 fields if needed without the need for pulldown guidance. The same applies to true 25p on PAL DVDs. 24p needs pulldown flags but on a PC they can be ignored, which is technically risky but most of the time the base frame rate is a constant 24 fps so it works (DGIndex actually has an option for this).
The answer was already given!Originally Posted by newpball
Another piece of brilliance I suppose. Why on Earth would an MPEG-2 decompressor on a PC do that?Originally Posted by jagabo
I could not have said it better, jagabo.Originally Posted by jagabo
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If it does not specify VFR then is does not make any sense.Originally Posted by jagabo
But I suppose I have to claim defeat, progressive DVDs is totally mainstream now, I am all wrong about DVDs being interlaced.
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