total noob transfering VHS tapes to DVD

[dutchg]

Hi. As advertised, I'm a noob to this, but my project is to transfer a dozen or so old family VHS tapes to DVD, with some editing between. I have fairly extensive audio experience, but not much in video. My fundamental question is whether these two tools will get me near where I want to be (i.e., pull the vid off the VHS in an editable format that will return decent (don't have to be stunning) results when moved to DVD):

-Hauppauge 610 USB-Live 2 Analog Video Digitizer and Video Capture Device

and

-VideoPad Video Editor.

I'm a pretty good tinkerer, so if those tools will get me close, I'll probably go with them.

Any thoughts appreciated!

Dutch

[jman98]

The device you propose will certainly work, but at its price and size it's not the greatest option available. But your desire is reasonable in terms of quality so it should be OK. I like and use Hauppauge devices so no problems with the brand.

I have never heard of VideoPad so I can't comment on that part. For MPEG-2 editing in my opinion it's hard to beat the old MPEGVCR program or VideoReDo. Both are simple enough to use and don't do nasty things with your edits like re-encode them whether you want them to or not.

[dutchg]

Thanks for the reply, jman. I will probably go ahead with that Hauppage. I appreciate the heads-up on the editors you like. If VideoPad proves troublesome, I'll give one of those a try. So once I pull the videos off the VCR, what format will they be in on my computer? If I'm going to be doing some editing before transferring to DVD, I'm assuming the higher the resolution the better for the editing.

[PuzZLeR]

Your focus should be on the hard part first - capturing. In other words, getting the video on to your computer in digital format (and off the tape).

Editing is the easy part.

Having said that, Hauppauge is a good brand, so no problems there. Most of us regulars here will use VirtualDub as our capture software, and typically capture in lossless (such as HuffYUV). This makes it higher quality, and more flexible if working with the video, such as to remove noise, etc.

HuffYUV also works well in many editors, and after processing and editing, then it's fine to go to MPEG-2 and DvD. This produces better results.

MPEG-2 is typically not the best start for VHS capture IMO, but if you do wish to go straight to MPEG-2, and your expectations are not the highest, you'll be fine. Just use a higher bitrate (such as at least 8mbps, or higher) and a full 720x480 S/D resolution.

But do use an editor dedicated to MPEG-2. Never tried VideoPad, but those suggested by jman98, VideoReDo and Womble MPEG-VCR, or even TMPGEnc MPEG Editor, should be considered which edit MPEG-2 very quickly without re-encoding and losing quality and time - it will only re-encode just those few frames where you fade, cut and join.

Don't use an editor that re-encodes MPEG-2. This will un-necessarilly hurt your quality because MPEG-2 is a lossy format and degrades each generation. If VideoPad does this, and you are working with MPEG-2, then drop that app.

[dutchg]

Excellent info, Puzzler. Thanks a ton. So is HuffYUV sort of a plug-in that runs in VirtualDub? The format options are beyond me at this point. If I capture in the VirtualDub/HuffYUV combo you recommend, what would be a better option than MPEG-2, format-wise, in which to edit the file? Sorry the questions are so basic; such is my ignorance.

[jman98]

I disagree some with PuzZLeR. Actually not that many people here use VirtualDub for capturing. VirtualDub won't work with your Hauppauge device. I'm 99% sure about that. VirtualDub doesn't work more often than it does on capture devices to be blunt. He may just have used devices where it worked fine.

I also disagree with the well intentioned "You MUST capture losslessly" advice too. The lossless advice is almost religious in nature because the people who advocate that REALLY REALLY REALLY believe very strongly in it. What he said isn't wrong, but to be very blunt here, 95% or more of the people in the world just aren't all that anal about doing VHS captures. If you capture at a high enough bit rate in MPEG-2, you're not likely to see a lot of difference between that and lossless capture that gets re-encoded. If I was to capture with MPEG-2 and he was to do lossless and we both re-encoded to the same settings for DVD, I bet you wouldn't be able to tell a difference. Do it his way and I warn you that you are getting into "This is becoming very time consuming" territory.

[dutchg]

Thanks, jman. So for the sake of my understanding, in the scheme we first envisioned, what would I be using to capture the video---the editing software (i.e., VideoPad or one of the others you recommended)? It would hand the capturing, the editing, and the export to DVD?

[PuzZLeR]

I disagree some with PuzZLeR.

That's cool.

Actually not that many people here use VirtualDub for capturing.

Never mind the professional world for the moment, but which would be the ultimate hobbyist's geek-extraordinaire's choice then?

VirtualDub won't work with your Hauppauge device. I'm 99% sure about that. VirtualDub doesn't work more often than it does on capture devices to be blunt. He may just have used devices where it worked fine.

Yes and no.

VirtualDub works just fine with the USB-Live2, with all features expected of a 4:2:2 device, so figure it should too with this device, the 610, which according to Hauppauge's site is essentially the same thing.

It does however work with reduced features with the 950Q, and not without problems with the 1950 (crashes) and not without a hack for the 250/350 (which likely is upsampled 4:2:0 anyway), so I wouldn't recommend VirtualDub with all Hauppauge-ware.

I also disagree with the well intentioned "You MUST capture losslessly" advice too. The lossless advice is almost religious in nature because the people who advocate that REALLY REALLY REALLY believe very strongly in it. What he said isn't wrong, but to be very blunt here, 95% or more of the people in the world just aren't all that anal about doing VHS captures. If you capture at a high enough bit rate in MPEG-2, you're not likely to see a lot of difference between that and lossless capture that gets re-encoded. If I was to capture with MPEG-2 and he was to do lossless and we both re-encoded to the same settings for DVD, I bet you wouldn't be able to tell a difference. Do it his way and I warn you that you are getting into "This is becoming very time consuming" territory.

Yes, I believe "REALLY REALLY REALLY" strongly in this philosophy.

VHS is chaotic video when going digital and only a lossless format can truly tame it (to some degree). VHS video's instability can cause much havoc to lossy formats like MPEG-2, especially with noise and jitter. If it's a clean, pristine commercial VHS, with good time base correction, you will find better fortunes with MPEG-2. Forget it with noisy television captures.

As well, even the best captures, from the best VCRs, tapes and capture systems could seriously benefit from restoration, like chroma dancing, noise, and the like. Doing this with lossless ensures better flexibility, and generational conversions provide much less loss. Doing such filtering with MPEG-2 would add artifacts on top of this - with each filtering - it can start looking like mud even after just a couple of conversions.

Furthermore, even at higher bitrate MPEG-2 I see differences, even on the first capture, and especially more so on weaker VHS sources. I still see blocks, albiet minor on high bitrates, but, yes, I do see them. At any rate, you're already starting with less with MPEG-2, never mind what happens after.

Yes, maybe I'm being a bit picky, and I will admit that, but with lots of HDD space today, there's less excuse to not use lossless. But, yeah, high bitrate MPEG-2 is indeed a fine capture format for the less picky who do not wish to spend alot of time on this, and I wouldn't blame them either.

[newpball]

Do it his way and I warn you that you are getting into "This is becoming very time consuming" territory.

So capturing lossless is more time consuming?

So what's the fastest way to capture?

[newpball]

And the main argument for capturing family videos lossless?

The family and all its ancestors to come deserve nothing but the best possible!

Would you want to be that uncle who 200 years from now is known as that guy who wanted to cut corners because he thought 10GB was just too big and he was proud to compress it to the max with some crummy old codec which he thought looked good enough?

[PuzZLeR]

Do it his way and I warn you that you are getting into "This is becoming very time consuming" territory.

So capturing lossless is more time consuming?

So what's the fastest way to capture?

With all due respect, what I'm assuming was meant was that if you're working with lossless, you are likely inviting more work, like filters and re-encodes (to MPEG-2/DvD) if you're overly picky (like me), which I agree can be considerably much more time consuming instead of just going straight to DvD and getting on with life.

The fastest way to get this done is, really, just going straight to MPEG-2/DvD.

Capture times for lossless and MPEG-2 should be the same, unless they each work in a different space-time continuum.

And the main argument for capturing family videos lossless?

The family and all its ancestors to come deserve nothing but the best possible!

Would you want to be that uncle who 200 years from now is known as that guy who wanted to cut corners because he thought 10GB was just too big and he was proud to compress it to the max with some crummy old codec which he thought looked good enough?

Speaking of the space-time continuum, I did meet with my future great, great, great, great grandchildren/grandneices/grandnephews, etc, and yeah, they did praise me for taking advantage of the better quality formats of my generation and not skimping on HDD space in preserving memories.

However, they badgered me for also applying these methods to some cheesy music videos and TV shows that were better left for crappier formats, or better yet, never remembered.

[dutchg]

OK, I got my Hauppauge 610 USB-Live2. Puzzler, I want to try your VirtualDub/HuffYUV capture method, but I can't for the life of me figure it out. I succeeded in seeing the video in the capture window one time, but alas, nothing I do now seems to allow me to view the preview, much less capture any video. VD is seeing my capture device. I am vexed and flummoxed. Is there a step-by-step for this anywhere? The VD's help file wasn't much, nor was the website--it all assumes too much knowledge; I have none. Any help appreciated!

[PuzZLeR]

OK, I got my Hauppauge 610 USB-Live2. Puzzler, I want to try your VirtualDub/HuffYUV capture method, but I can't for the life of me figure it out. I succeeded in seeing the video in the capture window one time, but alas, nothing I do now seems to allow me to view the preview, much less capture any video. VD is seeing my capture device. I am vexed and flummoxed. Is there a step-by-step for this anywhere? The VD's help file wasn't much, nor was the website--it all assumes too much knowledge; I have none. Any help appreciated!

Alas, I've been meaning to write a step-by-step on this, just so I can point to a link with questions like this. I wish I can find the time.

However, in rough format, try this:

Load VirtualDub. (I use 1.08 or 1.10)

File -> Capture AVI... (to put VirtualDub in capture mode)
File -> Set capture file... (choose your file name and path you want VirtualDub to create for your capture)
Device -> Hauppauge Cx23100 Video Capture (Direct Show) (or, should say something similar)
Video -> Preview (to view it better)
Video -> Video source (choose which you're using, either Video Composite or Video SVideo - I have a hunch this may be your problem )
Video -> Compression... -> HuffYUV v2.1.1 -> OK (if you haven't installed HuffYUV, then do so to see this option, as for "Configure" options, just just "best" for any YUY2 options)
Video -> Set custom format... -> 720 -> 480 -> YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 interleaved -> OK (which should be fine in your area, and are the recommended options by most)
Also choose 29.97 fps at the bottom of the app.
Capture -> Autoincrement filename after capture (enable this or you will keep re-writing over your captures)

Choose F5 or F6 to begin capture, and Esc to stop it.

There are other options for tweaking, but all moot if you don't at least get the above to work. Hopefully it starts working.

[dutchg]

Thanks a ton for the help, Puzzler.

It's not working yet, but here is some specific feedback on the steps:


Load VirtualDub. (I use 1.08 or 1.10)
>>>I have 1.10.4

File -> Capture AVI... (to put VirtualDub in capture mode)
>>>done

File -> Set capture file... (choose your file name and path you want VirtualDub to create for your capture)
>>>done

Device -> Hauppauge Cx23100 Video Capture (Direct Show) (or, should say something similar)
>>>done

Video -> Preview (to view it better)
>>>done

Video -> Video source (choose which you're using, either Video Composite or Video
SVideo - I have a hunch this may be your problem )
>>>I chose Video Composite. I’m coming out of an old VCR with just a mono audio out, but I’ve connected that one audio RCA and one RCA for the Video out to the USB Live2

Video -> Compression... -> HuffYUV v2.1.1 -> OK (if you haven't installed HuffYUV, then do so to see this option, as for "Configure" options, just just "best" for any YUY2 options)
>>>This is an odd one. The only choice showing in the box is “(no recompression: YUY2).” I do have the option to “Show all codecs, even if they may not work,” but the HuffyYUV doesn’t show up there, either. There are five other codecs in that list (when I choose the show all option... you want me to list them?) [A note on how I installed the HuffYUV: Downloaded it, then, per instructions, right-clicked on huffyuv.inf and selected “install.” And it did it’s own install—very fast. Do I need to put it in a particular directory??]

Video -> Set custom format... -> 720 -> 480 -> YUY2 YUV 4:2:2 interleaved -> OK (which should be fine in your area, and are the recommended options by most)
Also choose 29.97 fps at the bottom of the app.
>>>done

Capture -> Autoincrement filename after capture (enable this or you will keep re-writing over your captures)
>>>done

Choose F5 or F6 to begin capture, and Esc to stop it.
>>>Clicked F5, the capture screen blinked a couple times, then got error message: “unable to start video capture”

NOTE: I did not install any of the software that came with the Hauppauge device: WinTV 7 and Arcsoft ShowBiz. Both seemed unnecessary. I plan to edit using Debut.

None of this would be so vexing but for the fact that the first time I hooked it up, I WAS seeing a preview. Then I started clicking around on things!


Whatcha think?

[dutchg]

Interestingly (maybe), the HuffyUV shows up as a compression option within my Debut Video Capture software, but not within the VirtualDub.

[newpball]

What bitdepth is the Virtualdub?

[dutchg]

What bitdepth is the Virtualdub?

Not sure. In Preferences, "Output color depth" says 24-bit (TrueColor).

[newpball]

What bitdepth is the Virtualdub?

Not sure. In Preferences, "Output color depth" says 24-bit (TrueColor).

No, I mean did you install the 32 or 64 bit version?

[dutchg]

Oh, I getcha. I think I grabbed the 32-bit. I took the first link from this page: https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Virtualdub

That said, I have a 64-bit system, so could try the other. Think that might be the problem?

[PuzZLeR]

Video -> Video source (choose which you're using, either Video Composite or Video
SVideo - I have a hunch this may be your problem )
>>>I chose Video Composite. I’m coming out of an old VCR with just a mono audio out, but I’ve connected that one audio RCA and one RCA for the Video out to the USB Live2

I'm assuming you connected the video out from the VCR to the yellow connector on the USB-Live2 (regardless of what color cable you're using with the composite), and, of course, selected Video Composite on VirtualDub after.

Video -> Compression... -> HuffYUV v2.1.1 -> OK (if you haven't installed HuffYUV, then do so to see this option, as for "Configure" options, just just "best" for any YUY2 options)
>>>This is an odd one. The only choice showing in the box is “(no recompression: YUY2).” I do have the option to “Show all codecs, even if they may not work,” but the HuffyYUV doesn’t show up there, either. There are five other codecs in that list (when I choose the show all option... you want me to list them?) [A note on how I installed the HuffYUV: Downloaded it, then, per instructions, right-clicked on huffyuv.inf and selected “install.” And it did it’s own install—very fast. Do I need to put it in a particular directory??]Your install seems fine, but maybe a restart of your computer may help here.

NOTE: I did not install any of the software that came with the Hauppauge device: WinTV 7 and Arcsoft ShowBiz. Both seemed unnecessary. I plan to edit using Debut.

I did actually install the software. I didn't want to, and have no plans to use WinTV or Arcsoft Biz myself, and have little regard for any packaged software that comes with capture devices in general.

However, AFAIK, the drivers that power the USB-Live2 are not made available by Hauppauge unless you install the other software with them. I searched for a stand-alone driver, just like you can find for many other capture devices (like ATI or StarTech had), but I didn't with Hauppauge. Even their website support makes you install the WinTV.

Regardless, unless someone can show a stand-alone driver for the USB-Live2, you may just have to install the packaged stuff that comes with it to get the driver too installed. This sucks with Hauppauge insisting on it this way IMO, but it may be the only way.

[PuzZLeR]

Oh, I getcha. I think I grabbed the 32-bit. I took the first link from this page: https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Virtualdub

That said, I have a 64-bit system, so could try the other. Think that might be the problem?

I work all my VHS capture with a dedicated 32 bit XP box. I wouldn't recommend it today since it's theoretically obsolete currently, but I could care less on my end since I've personally made it a designated capture-only system, and not even hooked onto the Internet. I could get another one for less than $50 if it busts since I'm too lazy trying to get older hardware to work on a modern system.

According to Hauppauge, you can work the unit on a 64 bit. And I have gotten even stuff like the ATI USB 600 working with Win7 64 bit (with some pain), so it I don't see that as your problem.

[dutchg]

Thanks, Puzzler. Yes, I have the cables connected as you indicated. Video Out to yellow.

I will go ahead and install that software to see if it helps. Two remaining questions for the moment:

1) To you think I should uninstall the current VD and install the 64-bit version?

2) Any ideas about why the Huffyuv wouldn't be showing up in VD?

THANKS

[newpball]

Oh, I getcha. I think I grabbed the 32-bit. I took the first link from this page: https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Virtualdub

That said, I have a 64-bit system, so could try the other. Think that might be the problem?

It does not matter you have a 64 bit system but the bitdepth of VirtualDub and the HuffYUV codec has to match.

[dutchg]

Oh, I getcha. I think I grabbed the 32-bit. I took the first link from this page: https://www.videohelp.com/tools/Virtualdub

That said, I have a 64-bit system, so could try the other. Think that might be the problem?

It does not matter you have a 64 bit system but the bitdepth of VirtualDub and the HuffYUV codec has to match.

Ah, OK. I think they do match, but I will check that out. THANKS.

[PuzZLeR]

To you think I should uninstall the current VD and install the 64-bit version?

Not sure about this, since I only work with 32 bit for captures. But it's worth a try. I haven't seen a VirtualDub version that actually needs an install - I have 5 different versions on my system for different functions all working fine independently (such as VirtualDubMod, VirtualDubMPEG-2, etc).

Any ideas about why the Huffyuv wouldn't be showing up in VD?

Ah, I see your problem with HuffYUV. HuffYUV has to be manually installed on your system.

Try this:

http://www.digitalfaq.com/forum/video-conversion/2193-cannot-install-huffyuv.html

Also, let us know if you installed the Hauppauge moslty-useless-ware and if it gave you that wanted driver deeply embedded in it.

[dutchg]

OK, I'm now running 64-bit on both VirtualDub and HuffYUV, and HuffyYUV is now showing up as a compression choice. Run through all the steps, and still the same result: "Unable to start video capture." Hmm.

Yes, I did install the Hauppauge-ware. All its drivers are listed in a "system32" subdirectory, so maybe I should kill the 64-bit VD and Huff, and go back to 32?

[LMotlow]

OK, I'm now running 64-bit on both VirtualDub and HuffYUV, and HuffyYUV is now showing up as a compression choice. Run through all the steps, and still the same result: "Unable to start video capture." Hmm.

Yes, I did install the Hauppauge-ware. All its drivers are listed in a "system32" subdirectory, so maybe I should kill the 64-bit VD and Huff, and go back to 32?

You'll have serious limiations with VirtualDub, Avisynth, and lots of other software and filters because most of this stuff is 32-bit. You can't use both. There's nothing wrong with 32-bit Virtualdub and filters in 64-bit Windows.

[dutchg]

OK, I'm now running 64-bit on both VirtualDub and HuffYUV, and HuffyYUV is now showing up as a compression choice. Run through all the steps, and still the same result: "Unable to start video capture." Hmm.

Yes, I did install the Hauppauge-ware. All its drivers are listed in a "system32" subdirectory, so maybe I should kill the 64-bit VD and Huff, and go back to 32?

You'll have serious limiations with VirtualDub, Avisynth, and lots of other software and filters because most of this stuff is 32-bit. You can't use both. There's nothing wrong with 32-bit Virtualdub and filters in 64-bit Windows.

OK, thanks. Will probably uninstall both and start over.

[dutchg]

OK, a practical question: I already own Debut Video Capture. If the specs are right for capturing with that, is there any advantage to continue trying to get VirtualDub working? Some Debut settings:

-format: 720 x 480, 29.97 fps, YUV
-compression: it lists "HuffYUV (Native)" as a compression option (I suppose that's the one I installed earlier??)

If I capture to an avi file with those Debut settings, is it the same as using the VirtualDub with those settings?

[PuzZLeR]

OK, a practical question: I already own Debut Video Capture. If the specs are right for capturing with that, is there any advantage to continue trying to get VirtualDub working? Some Debut settings:

-format: 720 x 480, 29.97 fps, YUV
-compression: it lists "HuffYUV (Native)" as a compression option (I suppose that's the one I installed earlier??)

If I capture to an avi file with those Debut settings, is it the same as using the VirtualDub with those settings?

I've done some searches again, and again I can't seem to find any Hauppauge WDM drivers without them imbedded within WinTV. But that's what I installed on my system, and it works just fine with VirtualDub. Did you try some compatibility modes for older versions of Windows?

What I really like about VirtualDub is that it really brings out the best in a capture device once it supports it. Other capture applications that I've tried seem to go on auto-pilot and want to do their own thing.

I took a look at Debut's site, and nowhere does it talk about truly lossless, or 4:2:2, capture. They seem too focused on putting it up on YouTube and conversion, effects, and other such "Consumer Joe" stuff, which are always better done after a successful capture, not during. They talk too much about deliverable formats, not archiving. I mean, this is fine if you're not as picky.

But, you can do much of the "Consumer Joe" stuff easily after you capture to lossless, and you wouldn't need Debut for this, and you can probably do it much better with other tools than a one-stop-shop like Debut would. If Debut captures to lossless - truly - then you should get bit-for-bit output with VirtualDub using the same settings, then go ahead and use it if it works for you.

But I still say, at least one more time, you should try and get VirtualDub working if you're truly serious about getting the most quality out of your content, and interested in a long-term solution for archiving. As well, I would try other tools first if VirtualDub didn't work for me (I hear about DScaler, VirtualVCR being good for some here) but personally don't trust Debut just yet.