How do convert a Digital8 AVI to play on a Roku3?

[Taney2]

I am in the process of transferring all of my videos off of my Digital8 camcorder to my computer. I am using the iLink port and WinDV to do the transfers so the files are AVI. I want to put them in a format that I can put on a USB drive and play on my Roku 3. The Roku doesn't support AVI so I have been experimenting with converting to MP4.

When I play the original AVI files on Windows Media Player on the computer they look fine.
When I play the MP4 versions on Windows Media Player there are some serious interlacing artifacts.
Those are also there when I play those same MP4 files on the Roku 3.
I have experimented with deinterlacing using Handbrake and am getting some better results, but I am not sure if this is the right thing to do.

What IS the best way to do this?

Thanks for any advice. I have about 200 tapes to do so I want to get this right.

[Baldrick]

Handbrake (with deinterlace) maybe is no the best but far easiest. You can always save your dv-avi files for better conversion later.

BUt if you want the best now I would to avisynth (together with megui) and try more advanced deinterlacers like QTGMC or Yadif deinterlace, see https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/361535-What-to-do-with-AVI-s-ripped-from-MiniDV-tap...=1#post2294040 or Google for avisynth QTGMC, yadif

[Taney2]

Handbrake (with deinterlace) maybe is no the best but far easiest. You can always save your dv-avi files for better conversion later.

BUt if you want the best now I would to avisynth (together with megui) and try more advanced deinterlacers like QTGMC or Yadif deinterlace, see https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/361535-What-to-do-with-AVI-s-ripped-from-MiniDV-tap...=1#post2294040 or Google for avisynth QTGMC, yadif

Thanks. Why do I not see these artifacts when I play the AVI files on my PC, but do with the MP4 files?

[Baldrick]

Too low bitrate? Try decrease the constant quality value a bit(under Video in handbrake). And use the High Profile.

And you can also post/attach a short sample from the source so we can check it. Use makesample on the avi.

[Taney2]

Too low bitrate? Try decrease the constant quality value a bit(under Video in handbrake). And use the High Profile.

And you can also post/attach a short sample from the source so we can check it. Use makesample on the avi.

Thanks. I've uploaded the AVI.. Thanks!

[Baldrick]

Doesn't you see the dvi-avi interlace lines with windows media player? They are very visible here...

[_Al_]

Double check proper deiterlace settings in Handbrake, or as they call it decomb or something, remember you do not deinterlace (keeping 29.970i) or double frame rate deinterlace (to get 59.94p). You do not want to get 29.970p. Yse Mediainfo to get those information for a video.

Sample of using QTGMC and x264 , to get double frame rate 59.94p , but not sure if Handbrake can use QTGMC, maybe yadif bob only.

[Taney2]

Double check proper deiterlace settings in Handbrake, or as they call it decomb or something, remember you do not deinterlace (keeping 29.970i) or double frame rate deinterlace (to get 59.94p). You do not want to get 29.970p. Yse Mediainfo to get those information for a video.

Sample of using QTGMC and x264 , to get double frame rate 59.94p , but not sure if Handbrake can use QTGMC, maybe yadif bob only.

Thanks. Your file looks much better. Don't see a QTGMC option in Handbreak.

Handbreak has deinterlace and decomb options. The is a Bob option under either of those.

I tried decomb with bob and 59.94 FR but I think you told me not to do that. The output looked good I think.

Also, I'm not married to Handbreak. I can use something else. What I want to do is get the best results that are reasonably possible so I won't have to do this again. I don't want to end up with Jagged, blocky results.

Thank you so much for your help.

[LMotlow]

The DV sample seems corrupt, it only reads about 275 frames, then freezes. Interlacing with some DV material is often a hassle.

yadif(mode=0,order=0) gives 29.97p, but you'll have to clean it up and sharpen somewhat (I used QTGMC InputType=1 to clean up some of the grain).

Instead of Handbrake, maybe MEGUI, which can take Avisynth scripts and plugins.

[_Al_]

The DV sample seems corrupt

Yes, volume for original DV avi corresponds to that about 9 second length, perhaps a bad cut or something, hopefully it is not a pattern after capturing of every clip or something.

Just wandering about that 29.970 progressive encode, why is that. I mean for op, I tell him to avoid 29.970 p and you post it for him as a solution. Even for DVD he should use 29.970i.

[Taney2]

The DV sample seems corrupt, it only reads about 275 frames, then freezes. Interlacing with some DV material is often a hassle.

yadif(mode=0,order=0) gives 29.97p, but you'll have to clean it up and sharpen somewhat (I used QTGMC InputType=1 to clean up some of the grain).

Instead of Handbrake, maybe MEGUI, which can take Avisynth scripts and plugins.

Thanks. That plays well. The AVI did get funky when I used the sample program to make the short clip. My other AVIs are OK.

So you wouldn't go the 60fps?

[LMotlow]

Just wandering about that 29.970 progressive encode, why is that. I mean for op, I tell him to avoid 29.970 p and you post it for him as a solution. Even for DVD he should use 29.970i.

When it comes to DV, one of the big bugaboos (IMHO) is klutsy interlacing. It looks rough in the original source, and if you take it apart and put it back together it always looks worse. Yadif mode=0 keeps the same frame rate by doing what some media players do: separate fields, then use tricky edge detection and interpolation to make a new progressive frame outta those fields. Not perfect, as we all know. So 29.97i gets you 29.97p. Lots of folks make progressive DVD's (and ten wonder why motion half the time doesn't look as smooth a it's supposed to. Sneakier folks take 29.97p and encoded it with interlace flags.

So the attached taney2_ DV_encode_as_interlaced.mpg is the same mpg in my previous post, but encoded as interlaced.

The attached taney2_DV_deint_reinterlaced.mpg omits the yadif step, deinterlaces (I used QTGMC with denoise), then reinterlaces, and finally runs some one the same anti-alias filters folks use for interlaced video (I tried maa and santiag. Santiag won).

[_Al_]

30i or 60p keeps all the motion (temporal resolution) , 30p does not
and nowadays anything can play 60p standard definition

I missed last post,
I don't think media players give 30p on screen while playing 30i. 30p should be kind of forgotten since original is 30i. No reason to be afraid of 60p nowadays, especially about standard definition and changing it to progressive.

[LMotlow]

So you wouldn't go the 60fps?

You can, but what output media do you want and how do you want to play it? Keep in mind that using bob or even yadif by itself won't look like proper QTGMC. 60fps isn't something a set top player would recognize, and a tv might play nice with it or just behave strangely. Maybe you can do what most of us never did -- try it anyway, and see what happens. You can't use it for SD BluRay/AVCHD or DVD. So it would have to be one of the "computer" formats like mkv, mp4, etc., which are often something that less than 100% of the world's non-PC players can play. They aren't exactly distributable formats unless you can convince relatives that the USB flash drive you're sending them is safe to use if they just (a) follow the "simple" instructions you enclose and (b) use a player that can read it. If you encode with h264, a BluRay player is required. If you encode to standard DVD or SD-BluRay, 60fps won't fly.

I'd go with the progressive version encoded as interlaced. Also, remember that this stuff won't play quite the same way on a TV as it does on your PC.

30i or 60p keeps all the motion (temporal resolution) , 30p does not
and nowadays anything can play 60p standard definition

Anything? I realize that your grandma and godfather are screamin' hot swingers with OPPO 105D's in half the rooms and WD drives in the other rooms, but....anything?

[_Al_]

I would not worry a bit, making 60p mp4. If he wants standard to every living room he has to make a DVD. That is 30i. As for QTGMC not be able to fuss with it all the time or to write scripts etc., I made DV avi helper, that does that automatically, he drops DV avi onto batch file and it makes mp4 using QTGMC. Downside is, it needs this Avisynth installed and Cedocida codec installed in PC, and there are some that did not make it work for some reason. But if it works it could be an enormous help. That DV avi helper makes a DVD as well.

[Taney2]

Just wandering about that 29.970 progressive encode, why is that. I mean for op, I tell him to avoid 29.970 p and you post it for him as a solution. Even for DVD he should use 29.970i.

When it comes to DV, one of the big bugaboos (IMHO) is klutsy interlacing. It looks rough in the original source, and if you take it apart and put it back together it always looks worse. Yadif mode=0 keeps the same frame rate by doing what some media players do: separate fields, then use tricky edge detection and interpolation to make a new progressive frame outta those fields. Not perfect, as we all know. So 29.97i gets you 29.97p. Lots of folks make progressive DVD's (and ten wonder why motion half the time doesn't look as smooth a it's supposed to. Sneakier folks take 29.97p and encoded it with interlace flags.

So the attached taney2_ DV_encode_as_interlaced.mpg is the same mpg in my previous post, but encoded as interlaced.

The attached taney2_DV_deint_reinterlaced.mpg omits the yadif step, deinterlaces (I used QTGMC with denoise), then reinterlaces, and finally runs some one the same anti-alias filters folks use for interlaced video (I tried maa and santiag. Santiag won).

Wow... I think the progressive encoded as interlaced looks better than the reinterlaced. The combing is very noticeable on my x wife's fingers in the reinterlaced file. Is that what we expect?

[Taney2]

So you wouldn't go the 60fps?

You can, but what output media do you want and how do you want to play it? Keep in mind that using bob or even yadif by itself won't look like proper QTGMC. 60fps isn't something a set top player would recognize, and a tv might play nice with it or just behave strangely. Maybe you can do what most of us never did -- try it anyway, and see what happens. You can't use it for SD BluRay/AVCHD or DVD. So it would have to be one of the "computer" formats like mkv, mp4, etc., which are often something that less than 100% of the world's non-PC players can play. They aren't exactly distributable formats unless you can convince relatives that the USB flash drive you're sending them is safe to use if they just (a) follow the "simple" instructions you enclose and (b) use a player that can read it. If you encode with h264, a BluRay player is required. If you encode to standard DVD or SD-BluRay, 60fps won't fly.

I'd go with the progressive version encoded as interlaced. Also, remember that this stuff won't play quite the same way on a TV as it does on your PC.

30i or 60p keeps all the motion (temporal resolution) , 30p does not
and nowadays anything can play 60p standard definition

Anything? I realize that your grandma and godfather are screamin' hot swingers with OPPO 105D's in half the rooms and WD drives in the other rooms, but....anything?

You guys are so far above me on this. I really am not interesting in burning any of this to disk. I think DVD and BluRay are going the way of the DoDo. The last car I bought doesn't even have a CD player and I can't remember the last time I bot a DVD or BluRay. I do Netflix, YouTube, Amazon mostly thru a Roku to watch on TV.

So what I am trying to do is take the camcorder AVIs and put them in something that can be played on the TV. When I finish this, I'll put it all on a big USB drives and give them to my parents and my children. We can hook those drives up to a Roku or something else, but I've tried the Roku 3, it works and I think my mother can handle it O.K. I'll share some of the material with others on smaller drives and they can do with it as they please. Don't think I want to put this on YouTube.

[Taney2]

I would not worry a bit, making 60p mp4. If he wants standard to every living room he has to make a DVD. That is 30i. As for QTGMC not be able to fuss with it all the time or to write scripts etc., I made DV avi helper, that does that automatically, he drops DV avi onto batch file and it makes mp4 using QTGMC. Downside is, it needs this Avisynth installed and Cedocida codec installed in PC, and there are some that did not make it work for some reason. But if it works it could be an enormous help. That DV avi helper makes a DVD as well.

Thanks. I'll take a look at this. Looks like an interesting project.

[Taney2]

Thank all of you for your input. This is all very interesting and I appreciate your help.

[Taney2]

I would not worry a bit, making 60p mp4. If he wants standard to every living room he has to make a DVD. That is 30i. As for QTGMC not be able to fuss with it all the time or to write scripts etc., I made DV avi helper, that does that automatically, he drops DV avi onto batch file and it makes mp4 using QTGMC. Downside is, it needs this Avisynth installed and Cedocida codec installed in PC, and there are some that did not make it work for some reason. But if it works it could be an enormous help. That DV avi helper makes a DVD as well.

I installed all of this and did my first run. Why is the output 720x540? Also, what's up with the field order options for the input?

Thank you so much for this tool!

[_Al_]

to get 60p 720x540 use "make progressive mp4.bat" , no questions asked, it assumes input is DV avi, 4:3, 16:9, NTSC or PAL, otherwise it would not encode, use this one

to get 30i 720x480 use "make interlaced mp4.bat" , no questions asked, it assumes it is DV avi, 4:3, 16:9, NTSC or PAL, otherwise it would not encode

if it is going to ask you about field order (dv avi has BFF), aspect ratio, target (progressive or interlace) you used "make mp4 from avi.bat" , that is for general avi input, like lossless avi, that video does not carry info for aspect ratio, field order etc so you provide info before encoding, sure it can be used for DV avi as well, but one has to input correct input data ...

as for make progressive mp4.bat, 720x540 is resize to get square pixel aspect ratio 1.0, for 4:3 video, understand to keep correct proportion on screen, because DV avi is anamorphic video, not square pixel. It does not have to be 720x540 precisely, I just set it that way, it could be whatever that gives you 4:3 ( 720/540=4/3 ) . If video is quite a bad quality, you might better give it 640x480 for example. Resize does not have to be done if aspect ratio is set for video , as they call it SAR 8:9, for x264 encoder, for DV avi but some players might ignore that flag and you might see it slightly disproportional on screen, so I just prefer to be done with it for good and resize (if bob deinterlace is used), because QTGMC is good in the first place. I buried those values (720,540) in that batch script, so it could be changed as you wish, it can be changed, you can edit that bat in notepad for example ...

also you can drop more files into "make progressive mp4.bat" and "make interlace mp4.bat", it would encode them one by one ...

[Taney2]

to get 60p 720x540 use "make progressive mp4.bat" , no questions asked, it assumes input is DV avi, 4:3, 16:9, NTSC or PAL, otherwise it would not encode, use this one

to get 30i 720x480 use "make interlaced mp4.bat" , no questions asked, it assumes it is DV avi, 4:3, 16:9, NTSC or PAL, otherwise it would not encode

if it is going to ask you about field order (dv avi has BFF), aspect ratio, target (progressive or interlace) you used "make mp4 from avi.bat" , that is for general avi input, like lossless avi, that video does not carry info for aspect ratio, field order etc so you provide info before encoding, sure it can be used for DV avi as well, but one has to input correct input data ...

as for make progressive mp4.bat, 720x540 is resize to get square pixel aspect ratio 1.0, for 4:3 video, understand to keep correct proportion on screen, because DV avi is anamorphic video, not square pixel. It does not have to be 720x540 precisely, I just set it that way, it could be whatever that gives you 4:3 ( 720/540=4/3 ) . If video is quite a bad quality, you might better give it 640x480 for example. Resize does not have to be done if aspect ratio is set for video , as they call it SAR 8:9, for x264 encoder, for DV avi but some players might ignore that flag and you might see it slightly disproportional on screen, so I just prefer to be done with it for good and resize (if bob deinterlace is used), because QTGMC is good in the first place. I buried those values (720,540) in that batch script, so it could be changed as you wish, it can be changed, you can edit that bat in notepad for example ...

also you can drop more files into "make progressive mp4.bat" and "make interlace mp4.bat", it would encode them one by one ...

This is a very handy tool. Thank you. Which would you use for what I am trying to do?

I noticed that the output files for the progressive files is about twice that of the interlaced files. Why is that?

Still not sure I understand why the progressive is 720x540 while the interlaced is 720x480 for the same file. I didn't record anything in widescreen so all of my video is sourced at 4:3.

I also like the looks of the join AVI files and join DV files program. When I copy the files off of my D8 I sometimes get a bunch of little files based on breaks in the time codes. One thing I was concerned with was how to put those together as appropriate. Am I correct that they are joined without any reencoding or change in compenents/quality of the source material?

When I copy my Hi8 tapes through my D8 camcorder, I end up with a huge file. Any suggestion as to how to break that into pieces?

Finally, for the moment...and I expect this is a silly question...would I get a better image on my TV if I put these on DVD (although this isn't really what i want to do as I have stated) and play them through my BluRay/DVD player that upscales?

Thanks again.

[_Al_]

I used "make progressive mp4.bat" almost exclusively.
I did not get 2x bitrate as oppose to "make interlaced mp4.bat", I got something like 20% more bitrate. But it depends on type of video you work with. Working with noisy video perhaps gets you much larger volume using bob deinterlacer.

Google anamorphic video. DV avi is anamorphic. 720/480 is NOT 4/3, but your video is proportionally 4/3. How is it that you get on screnn 4/3 then? Your player fixes those proportions during playback. It uses DV avi aspect ratio and you get 720x540 on screen.

So while encoding it , why not to fix it and encode it proportionally correct. Hence that 720x540 resize. If you did not resize, that video would need to have aspect ratio stored, it is call SAR using x264 encoder, it would be 8:9.

Btw, all DVD's are anamorphic also. Same thing. You just never realize it, because as a user you do not have to know that. Imagine you watch 16:9 video , DVD, but if you check video resolution it is 720x480. During playback that video is stretched out horizontally. Playng 4:3 NTSC DVD, that video is streched out vertically, tiny bit, weirdly enough. .

Joining works without re-encoding. It uses mencoder, Join DV files.bat checks for DV avi validity, but if any file is not the same as first DV avi, it will disregard that file, but continues joining
join avi files.BAT can join general avi file, but if any file is not the same as first avi, it will crash, it needs same kind of avi's.
You always select those files in a browser, grab the first one and drag and drop that selection on that particular bat file. Files need to be in alphabetical order of course, so while captirung DV avi, I always captured DV avi it in year-month-day-time format.

For spliting up DV avi by scenes, not by timecode, there was this Scenalyzer, try if it is going to work for you, it froze on me here on Win 7. There was also Scenalyzer Live that captured DV avi by timecode, so be carefull there were two programs with almost the same name.

DVD would not get you better quality, that QTGMC gives you slightly better result for mp4 (H264 video, AAC audio), but that DVD making does not change video parameters, so your video would be 720x480, 30i, how it suppose to be and it is mpeg2, those are DVD specifications. What DVD gives you is better device compatibility for sure. DVD quality depends on how that DVD is long. Because you have only 4.3GB on DVD disc, you can have about hour and 10 minutes to use 8Mbit bitrate, You might not see any difference on good TV screen, but imagine DVD that is 2hours long, bitrate has to be much smaller, and quality goes down a bit. That batch script checks video length and then encoder is distributing bitrate to place it on one DVD if it chooses 2pass VBR. For short times, 70 minutes and less, it chooses 1pass CQ, so it is even faster.

[Taney2]

Thanks AI. That is all very , very helpful. I like the progressive file results. Why is that file smaller than the interlaced file?

[_Al_]

I though you said that interlace gave you smaller volume. Not sure what you mean now. Interlace 30i should be smaller. It has half pixel total count comparing to 60p progressive. But compression should bring that difference down a lot. I would get about 20% bigger volume for 60p as oppose to 30i.

[Taney2]

The interlaced are about twice as large.

[_Al_]

I tried your sample now and I got about the same result, so perhaps QTGMC magic and difficulty to compress that sample, lots of noise, resulted in this, because both use the same quantizer. So I was wrong above that more noise would give more bitrate for bob deinterlacer, it looks like it could be even the opposite using QTGMC. Something new learning every day.

[Taney2]

Thanks AI I tried this on a larger file that is about 54 minutes long. Took about 8 hours but it looks great on the TV through the Roku. It will take forever to do all of these but I can't watch but so much anyhow.

[Taney2]

Doesn't you see the dvi-avi interlace lines with windows media player? They are very visible here...

Didn't mean to ignore your post. They don't seem that noticable to me.

[Taney2]

AI I'm going to give your DVD program a try, too. Ten years ago when I was burning DVDs with Pinnacle I was never very happy with the results. Ended up with alot of blocking. I'll be couriouos to see what I get with your program. If I set this all up correctly, I should be able put the videos on either formay rather easily.