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  1. Previously, I pointed you to the thread where I showed that the USB3HDCAP fails to capture 480i 4:2:2 with 100% accuracy. The difference is minor, and I have no idea whether this is also true of 576i.

    The Intensity Pro 4K captures that accurately, but actually has worse quality for 1080p23.976 4:4:4 capture, in a way that is noticeable.
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    Based on the information given in other thread related to graphstudio use for better histogram management and optimization and simultaneous have a live preview / active histogram interactivity , avoiding to have to go back and forth between adjusting the proc amp and viewing the image/histogram I tried to see if it could be used with the startech device. And it seems it works fine .

    I was using the startech in hdmi and even if the modules properties in graphstudio were set the to yuv it goes to rgb I don’t know why, so I had to make some modifications, also in the script as the avisynth histogram works in yuv mode

    script
    DirectShowSource("F:\Graph_Star.GRF",FrameCount=10 000,audio=false)
    ConvertToYV12(interlaced=true)
    crop(8,2,704,572)
    TurnRight().Histogram().TurnLeft()
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    FrameCount=10000 not 10
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  4. Originally Posted by FLP437 View Post
    I was using the startech in hdmi and even if the modules properties in graphstudio were set the to yuv it goes to rgb I don’t know why
    That probably means the source was putting out RGB, not YUV. HDMI capture is usually performed in the format of the source. See if there's a way to force the source to YUV output.

    There's not a lot of full black and full white so it's a little hard to say for sure, but the levels look about right on the sample image.
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    Hello. I'm trying to install "Micomsoft USB3HDCAP Drivers" by The Thrillness and the installation keeps failing. I've uninstalled all previous drivers that I had through my device manager and it's still not working. I'm using Windows 10.

    This is the error I'm getting.

    Image
    [Attachment 41880 - Click to enlarge]


    Any ideas? Thanks.
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    According to the information previously included in this thread the original provider of the driver for capture cards like the Yuan UB-530 , Micomsoft Xcapture-1, Startech usb3hdcap and others with the same chipset is YUAN.

    I Think the eventual advantages to use the Micomsoft driver in the past was they were relatively fast updated (after YUAN)faster then startech and the fact that it was posted a method to adapt the micomsoft driver allowing an unsigned driver to be installed.

    However the Have disk method avoiding the need to adjust the driver and allowing to install unsigned drivers should allow yuan , micomsoft and others to be installed with the startech if you do have access to the driver files namely the inf file, not always the case( Yuan is an exe file).

    But now the drivers are almost all stabilized within the same and last version and probably there is no advantage to use the micomsoft driver already ( also it seems not updated to the last version), only if the last startech driver version has some type of known specific error

    Yuan UB530 - DRIVER Version CY3014 1.1.0.170.0
    http://www.yuan.com.tw/download.htm
    Micomsoft XCapture-1 - Driver Version: CY3014 1.1.0.168
    http://www.micomsoft.co.jp/xcapture-1.htm
    startech usb3hdcap Driver Version: CY3014 1.1.0.170
    https://www.startech.com/AV/Converters/Video/usb-3-0-video-capture-device-hdmi-dvi-vga~USB3HDCAP
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    Hi there,

    Just made an account as I recently picked up the StarTech USB3HDCAP for some VHS conversion, I have encountered the issue that vaporeon800 ran into where randomly on long captures the recording just flickers and is filled with the "No Signal" screen for no apparent reason. This screen doesn't just appear on recording it appears in previews on both Virtual Dub and in the Stream Catcher software, I've tried using the Micomsoft driver but the latest one is older than the latest StarTech which provides more settings in the Capture Filter menu on VirtualDub.

    This renders the device relatively useless as tapes that are badly damaged just spit out the "No Signal" screen rendering the display useless, I doubt this is a hardware issue either as I have tried cheap capture devices that don't do that.

    Has anyone found a way around this or a way to fix it, I've spent a lot of money on this device and it seems strange that it would do something silly like this.
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  8. Standard definition capture is an afterthought on all the high def capture devices. It's quite common for the devices to screw up on VHS and other sources with poor time base. You'll need some type of time base corrector. An old Panasonic ES10, ES15, etc DVD recorder in pass-through mode should clean up the time base enough to prevent problems.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Standard definition capture is an afterthought on all the high def capture devices.
    Which is increasingly frustrating after spending so much thinking that it should be able to do basic SD lossless capture without question. As for getting a TBC I'm not really confident in paying more money to fix an issue that shouldn't be present in the first place, there's absolutely no guarantee that this will fix it either. Not going to be giving them the benefit of the doubt by ignoring an obvious issue that is clearly not advertised as present.

    I've contacted StarTech support which I hear is really good, but at this stage I can only see one outcome as support for the drivers seems to have dried up.

    Finding a device that can do lossless capture through VirtualDub without ANY issues really is proving to be a nightmare.
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  10. You always want a line TBC for VHS capture anyway. An S-VHS deck, DVD recorder, or capture device with line TBC.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    You always want a line TBC for VHS capture anyway. An S-VHS deck, DVD recorder, or capture device with line TBC.
    Regardless of cleaning up the signal or whatever equipment that needs to be used, a 10 dollar capture dongle shouldn't outperform one worth a few hundred. Even if the signal is of a poor quality it should be able to cope, as far as I'm concerned the poor quality capture of the dongle is at least usable the StarTech makes it unusable.

    Will not having S-Video or a TBC be a serious issue with any other device or will say an Intensity Shuttle work just fine with standard composite cables?
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    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    Will not having S-Video or a TBC be a serious issue with any other device or will say an Intensity Shuttle work just fine with standard composite cables?
    Using a full-frame TBC with the Intensity Shuttle will be beneficial with some (maybe most) VHS tapes: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168

    Capture devices today aren't usually built with the idea of capturing analog video from recordings on tape in mind. It's an afterthought. Full-frame TBCs help when the signal from the tape contains drop-outs. The use of a line TBCs always results in improved picture quality and more efficient lossy compression in the end result.

    I can recall only one current HD + SD capture device which delivers uncompressed output that has a built-in TBC, the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI, an internal card. However its line TBC is less effective for difficult tapes than the line TBC built into a few specific DVD recorder models. I'm not sure if the Magewell Pro Capture HDMI handles drop-outs well.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried
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    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    Will not having S-Video or a TBC be a serious issue with any other device or will say an Intensity Shuttle work just fine with standard composite cables?
    Using a full-frame TBC with the Intensity Shuttle will be beneficial with some (maybe most) VHS tapes: https://forum.blackmagicdesign.com/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=168

    Capture devices today aren't usually built with the idea of capturing analog video from recordings on tape in mind. It's an afterthought. Full-frame TBCs help when the signal from the tape contains drop-outs. The use of a line TBCs always results in improved picture quality and more efficient lossy compression in the end result.
    So if I was to stick with the StarTech I could just grab a TBC and that will solve my issues? Will a Line TBC work better than a full frame if I just want all of the tapes to come through without signal loss? Lastly my Panasonic AG-5260 doesn't have S-Video so will this be a major issue with a TBC or will that clean the signal up enough to get a clean result.
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  14. As jagabo said, the go-to is a DVD recorder known to perform line TBC well. [Almost?] any DVD recorder passthrough should solve the No Signal issue, even if it doesn't do line TBC. But if you use a DVD recorder that does line TBC worse than the StarTech's own signal decoding, horizontal stability will be worse than a direct connection.

    Having S-Video output on the VCR would improve the video quality a little but is irrelevant to the No Signal problem.
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    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    So if I was to stick with the StarTech I could just grab a TBC and that will solve my issues? Will a Line TBC work better than a full frame if I just want all of the tapes to come through without signal loss? Lastly my Panasonic AG-5260 doesn't have S-Video so will this be a major issue with a TBC or will that clean the signal up enough to get a clean result.
    As already suggested, you should get a DVD recorder to use as a pass-through device. A DVD recorder includes a frame synchronizer to fix timing irregularities in the signal and may also include a line TBC, re-aligning the individual horizontal lines making up the frame by correcting their timing.

    A full-frame TBC does what a frame synchronizer does and a bit more. It also removes Macrovision and repeats the last good frame if there is a spot on the tape where the oxide is worn off, causing a signal drop-out. ...but a full-frame TBC does not re-align the individual lines in the frame like a line TBC. Full-frame TBCs are hard to find in good condition and are not cheap. They are something that you may be able to do without.
    Ignore list: hello_hello, tried
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    As jagabo said, the go-to is a DVD recorder known to perform line TBC well.
    So would I be to assume that all VCR/DVD combo units have some form of TBC (I'm guessing for the in-built dubbing to DVD)? If not is there an easy way to identify if it does, would it be advertised like all of the upmarket VCR's that had them (Other than looking for a manual online)?

    Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    A full-frame TBC does what a frame synchronizer does and a bit more. It also removes Macrovision and repeats the last good frame if there is a spot on the tape where the oxide is worn off, causing a signal drop-out. ...but a full-frame TBC does not re-align the individual lines in the frame like a line TBC. Full-frame TBCs are hard to find in good condition and are not cheap. They are something that you may be able to do without.
    It sounds to me like the DVD combo pass-through is really only a solution to another problem which seems to be the scarcity of a proper Full Frame TBC, I've only ever seen the DVD option pop up on this forum before everywhere else Is all talk of which full frame is better between the DataVideo TBC-1000 or the AVToolbox AVT-8710 being the best cheap options.

    Initial searches even on eBay return nothing of the sort, so my guess is everyone is holding onto theirs, which is annoying for me because they seem to be the only way to do long recordings properly. I'm sure you can imagine that I can't really deal with continually recording the same 3 Hour tape multiple times just because of one slight error each time.

    So what is going to be my best option, keeping in mind that If I have to spend a bit more to acquire a proper external TBC that it wont be an issue (I won't be loosing money if I buy one due to their scarcity)?

    Lastly, I've always been interested in the Broadcast Units in the Panasonic AG line as well as the Sony and JVC units, I understand due to the head gap width these aren't ideal for home recordings as they introduce a lot of noise. However many of these units have in-built TBC and can be picked up for a good price online, would using this as a pass-through work the same as the DVD recorder or similar to a Prosumer model VCR with built in TBC. From my research getting one of the broadcast units would be easier than another upmarket VCR so is this a suitable option or am I still going to be plagued with conversion issues?
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  17. Originally Posted by usually_quiet View Post
    A full-frame TBC does what a frame synchronizer does and a bit more. It also removes Macrovision and repeats the last good frame if there is a spot on the tape where the oxide is worn off, causing a signal drop-out.
    Hmm. I don't agree with this definition. A frame sync should output continuous sync during periods of no signal. Depending of design/setting, it may output garbage video, blue/grey/black/colorbars, or repeat a frame/field, but it provides clean H&V sync, which is what's required to prevent the "No Signal" placeholder of this capture device. A full-frame TBC does the same thing, but with one or more added features.

    The way I see it:
    1. Line TBC attempts to stabilize horizontal lines and generates perfect horizontal sync, without touching vertical sync. Performance varies significantly, and "pro" equipment typically isn't designed to handle the extreme deviations typical of consumer videotape.
    2. Frame sync generates perfect, continuous horizontal/vertical sync, but does nothing to stabilize horizontally.
    3. Proc amp adjusts luma/chroma levels.
    • "Any?" DVD recorder passthrough = frame sync
    • Best DVD recorder passthrough = LTBC + frame sync [+ lame proc amp via menu for some models]
    • Best Digital8/MiniDV passthrough = LTBC + frame sync + forced DV compression [+ wrong IRE, in the case of Sony NTSC]
    • Lame full-frame TBCs = frame sync + VBI blanking [+ lame proc amp for most models]
    • Best full-frame TBCs = LTBC + frame sync + VBI blanking + proc amp
    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    So would I be to assume that all VCR/DVD combo units have some form of TBC (I'm guessing for the in-built dubbing to DVD)? If not is there an easy way to identify if it does, would it be advertised like all of the upmarket VCR's that had them (Other than looking for a manual online)?
    There's no easy way to identify the performance, even in the case of the few models that advertised input TBC. (Panasonic advertised it in Japan and I think Europe, but not in North America even though the same model numbers were used and the feature was present in those models in all three regions.)

    This is one reason you've only seen this discussed on user forums like VideoHelp. People here have taken the time, over the years, to test the various models they own. One enormous thread, of many: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-what-do-you-use

    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    I've only ever seen the DVD option pop up on this forum before everywhere else Is all talk of which full frame is better between the DataVideo TBC-1000 or the AVToolbox AVT-8710 being the best cheap options.
    "Everywhere else" meaning where? The advice on "professional"-oriented sites like Creative Cow or Blackmagic's forums tends to be to throw a full-frame (typically rackmount) TBC in the chain and call it a day. But professionals usually deal with professional formats. When it comes to VHS, they see it as too low-quality to bother with restoring, unlike Avisynth experts here/DigitalFAQ/Doom9 who will spend 10-100+ hrs on their prized tapes.

    IMO the AVT-8710 is a useless toy, unless you absolutely need to remove Macrovision without using a Macrovision stripper instead. And then you have to hope you don't run into the same issue I did. There are plenty of complaints about the DataVideo models, too (I've never used one). These consumer full-frame TBCs are overpriced for what they do.

    I've always been interested in the Broadcast Units in the Panasonic AG line as well as the Sony and JVC units
    Panasonic AG-8700 (PAL) includes a full-frame TBC that does everything, and works as a passthrough:
    1. Line TBC (powerful enough to correct flagging, judging by the fixed head-switch skew in the posted samples)
    2. Frame sync
    3. Proc amp
    4. Macrovision removal
    5. Supposedly advanced drop-out correction (this must only work during playback though, not passthrough)

    But read that thread. This series is plagued with SMD capacitor failure, just like the AG-1980. Recapping of the video boards is required. Maybe this is worth it for you, if you are interested in this type of VCR anyway. The poster of that thread, Quasipal, has recently offered a service of recapping boards for some flat GBP fee if you send them to him in the UK, but I believe no one has taken him up on it yet.

    I haven't found an NTSC Panasonic that operates the same way, which is weird since they're Japanese.

    Remember that the "broadcast" units only play SP tapes and are very large/heavy. The Panasonics I have are much smaller than the JVC, though, especially in depth.
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    There's no easy way to identify the performance, even in the case of the few models that advertised input TBC. (Panasonic advertised it in Japan and I think Europe, but not in North America even though the same model numbers were used and the feature was present in those models in all three regions.)

    This is one reason you've only seen this discussed on user forums like VideoHelp. People here have taken the time, over the years, to test the various models they own. One enormous thread, of many: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/319420-Who-uses-a-DVD-recorder-as-a-line-TBC-and-what-do-you-use
    By the sounds of things it's really hit and miss unless I dive right in and get one of the recommended units like the ES series from Panasonic. As I know already from experience tested units that are useful fetch a high price on eBay which is why I'm not going right down that path. I do have access to some combo units one of which I believe even has S-Video for the DVD side which I assume means that it's a bit better quality.

    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    "Everywhere else" meaning where?
    Sorry I should've mentioned other forums that I have been reading on usually returned results from Google searches etc. I've also made queries elsewhere about the process and it's never been mentioned to use one as a pass-through.

    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    IMO the AVT-8710 is a useless toy, unless you absolutely need to remove Macrovision without using a Macrovision stripper instead. And then you have to hope you don't run into the same issue I did. There are plenty of complaints about the DataVideo models, too (I've never used one). These consumer full-frame TBCs are overpriced for what they do.
    Which combined with what you said before about the Frame Synchronizers leads me to believe that finding one of those may be a suitable option. I had no idea to look for those but eBay has a plethora of old broadcast Frame Sync's many units have built in TBC as well, like you said most of them are rack-mount but I'm sure that could be overcome if it will do the job (remembering all I'm interested in at this stage is just a clean signal good for capture). The prices of these vary as well as the information available on them but many can be picked up for around $100. Is there any major trade-offs like a drop in quality or something that I should be concerned about when looking into these?

    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    But read that thread. This series is plagued with SMD capacitor failure, just like the AG-1980. Recapping of the video boards is required. Maybe this is worth it for you, if you are interested in this type of VCR anyway. The poster of that thread, Quasipal, has recently offered a service of recapping boards for some flat GBP fee if you send them to him in the UK, but I believe no one has taken him up on it yet.
    I'm not going to let a few blown capacitors get in the way of acquiring one of those magnificent pieces of history, being a common problem means that It would be well documented and those units were designed to be opened and accessed so I can't imagine it being overly difficult to repair one especially if it's only basic replacement and re-soldering of capactiors. Regardless that's something for the future and even with the limitation of SP only playback like I said before they aren't suitable for consumer home video playback anyway due to their design.

    I also heard back from StarTech support who informed me of everything that's already been mentioned here, their support is very good and clearly has a very good understanding of their products and how they work. The tech mentioned another one of their analogue only capture cards which has a TWAIN driver (also compatible with VirtualDub) to try but still no confirmation of how they handle the shoddy signals. Not planning on taking another chance as I am satisfied with the USB3HDCAP my problems are obviously with the lack of clean signal.
    Last edited by Polsom; 20th Jun 2017 at 05:53.
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  19. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    [Panasonic AG-8700] Regardless that's something for the future and even with the limitation of SP only playback like I said before they aren't suitable for consumer home video playback anyway due to their design.
    If you are truly comfortable with replacing hundreds of SMD caps (not just the regular type), this is what you should buy rather than leaving it for the future. Think of it as an enormous full-featured TBC, with the added feature of SP playback. You never have to actually play tapes using it unless you find it's a good player, since the TBC works as a passthrough.


    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    I also heard back from StarTech support who informed me of everything that's already been mentioned here, their support is very good and clearly has a very good understanding of their products and how they work.
    Interesting. My emails with them shortly after my original posts regarding the "No Signal" issue didn't get very far. Partly because I stopped responding and they closed the ticket, mind you. They wanted me to test without my USB 3.0 hub in-line, even though I could capture 1080p60 no problem hooked up that way, and I was too lazy err "busy" so I put that off for a while. The issue is clearly on the analog input side, not the USB output side.

    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    eBay has a plethora of old broadcast Frame Sync's many units have built in TBC as well, like you said most of them are rack-mount ... Is there any major trade-offs like a drop in quality or something that I should be concerned about when looking into these?
    Yes. They typically aren't designed to handle VHS. Even one that I bought, claiming to support consumer tapes, does a poor job (check pg 2 for my further thoughts; I also posted a little about it on this forum). I have 3 DVD recorders I prefer to it that were cheaper, a 4th that is better but was more expensive, and a 5th cheapie that is probably worse for some tapes yet better for others.

    Here is another eBay purchase of mine. I gave it away so this YouTuber could repair it:
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kzP62G9UiSA
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ul0LwlIbFW8

    Notice the comment on the second video:
    Originally Posted by Massimiliano Celindano
    Interesting. I've tried a ton of TBC (For.a, G2, Snell & Wilcox, JVC, Kramer) in order to stabilize and improve analog materials (VHS, Beta, U-matic), but none of them satisfied me like the DVD recoder "solution" (Panasonic, Sony and Pioneer). The results are quite impressive. Easy, quick and cheaper. I can capture my footage with no drops simply splitting the signal from the source (Pana DVD recorder) through HDMI and send it to the IP4K capture card.
    Yesterday, I captured a prototype version of a test pattern tape I made. I'll probably never get around to really analyzing the results, as it quickly becomes super complex and boring. But here is an example of the AVT-8710 causing flagging in one field, while capturing direct to the card is actually fine on this frame. It did this several times at the start of this tape, where I had intentionally stopped and started the recording every few seconds. (The tape is a reused pre-record: E.T.)

    Click image for larger version

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    In this case, the tape apparently contains two top fields in a row instead of top & bottom, due to the location of the "cut". How each devices deals with this error differs. The DMR-ES15 seems to take longer to recover, but doesn't introduce flagging. Meanwhile, it skips frames for no apparent reason at times. I believe its internal clock is inaccurate.

    Speaking of which, the way that I recorded this was:
    1. Encode to DV.
    2. [Playout] WinDV <Firewire> Sony DCR-TRV340 <YC> [Record] Mitsubishi HS-HD2000U
    I discovered that one of the elements in step 2 skipped frames, as they're simply missing altogether in the VHS recording.

    The frame number of the end of the test is supposed to be 119999. The AVT capture reaches this frame at 119995, due to skipped frames at the recording stage. And DMR-ES15 at 119991, due to skipped frames in its digitization.

    [Final edit:] If you can get to this location for pickup, the DMR-ES10 is among this lot, and the similar-looking HDMI model may be good too. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/bulk-lot-dvd-recorders-Panasonic-LG-Samsung-/302347264976
    Last edited by vaporeon800; 20th Jun 2017 at 09:54.
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  20. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    I'm not going to let a few blown capacitors get in the way of acquiring one of those magnificent pieces of history, being a common problem means that It would be well documented and those units were designed to be opened and accessed so I can't imagine it being overly difficult to repair one especially if it's only basic replacement and re-soldering of capactiors.
    I hope you have a steady hand and a lot of patience. Surface mount capacitors are about 1mm x 2mm in size -- about the size of a grain of rice. And there are dozens of them.
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    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    If you are truly comfortable with replacing hundreds of SMD caps (not just the regular type), this is what you should buy rather than leaving it for the future. Think of it as an enormous full-featured TBC, with the added feature of SP playback. You never have to actually play tapes using it unless you find it's a good player, since the TBC works as a passthrough.
    They don't always pop up and I would rather have a more stable working system before I go and experiment with something else that may be a while to fix.


    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    Interesting. My emails with them shortly after my original posts regarding the "No Signal" issue didn't get very far. Partly because I stopped responding and they closed the ticket, mind you. They wanted me to test without my USB 3.0 hub in-line, even though I could capture 1080p60 no problem hooked up that way, and I was too lazy err "busy" so I put that off for a while. The issue is clearly on the analog input side, not the USB output side.
    I don't think there's anything wrong with the unit I just think it is as you have said already "without a TBC" which doesn't allow for proper VHS capture. The quality of the captured signal in the clean areas is terrific and a substantial increase in quality over the USB2.0 dongle I was using before.

    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    Yes. They typically aren't designed to handle VHS. Even one that I bought, claiming to support consumer tapes, does a poor job (check pg 2 for my further thoughts; I also posted a little about it on this forum). I have 3 DVD recorders I prefer to it that were cheaper, a 4th that is better but was more expensive, and a 5th cheapie that is probably worse for some tapes yet better for others.
    I would be interested in what their use is if they can't even handle the jobs that they are supposed to be designed for. Stabilizing clean signals for up-conversion?

    Originally Posted by Massimiliano Celindano
    Interesting. I've tried a ton of TBC (For.a, G2, Snell & Wilcox, JVC, Kramer) in order to stabilize and improve analog materials (VHS, Beta, U-matic), but none of them satisfied me like the DVD recoder "solution" (Panasonic, Sony and Pioneer). The results are quite impressive. Easy, quick and cheaper. I can capture my footage with no drops simply splitting the signal from the source (Pana DVD recorder) through HDMI and send it to the IP4K capture card.
    Sounds like the DVD option is a good call then.


    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    [Final edit:] If you can get to this location for pickup, the DMR-ES10 is among this lot, and the similar-looking HDMI model may be good too. http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/bulk-lot-dvd-recorders-Panasonic-LG-Samsung-/302347264976
    This is a terrific find, the ES-10 should be perfect "If it works". Although I don't really need them all I can just pawn off the rest.

    I hope that not having the remotes won't be an issue, but I'm sure I can sort something out.

    For the time being I might just see about the DVD pass through route to get me on my feet so that I can at least start doing the 3 Hour recordings of full tapes etc. Once I have a good workflow then I should be able to start experimenting with different hardware.
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  22. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    [broadcast TBCs]I would be interested in what their use is if they can't even handle the jobs that they are supposed to be designed for. Stabilizing clean signals for up-conversion?
    Stabilizing (& genlocking) broadcast tape sources, satellite feeds, etc. to spec so that they can be edited or fed direct to transmission. Their sources are much more stable than consumer tape.

    I hope that not having the remotes won't be an issue, but I'm sure I can sort something out.
    The remote is required for the Panasonics to verify that internal Line Noise Reduction is disabled (and in the case of NTSC only, set the black level). I think a remote that works with any of them will work with all, for the handful of buttons that you actually need. You could also get a cheapo programmable remote or low-end Logitech Harmony and use software to add the necessary buttons. If your smartphone has an IR blaster like my Samsung Galaxy S5, a free app may do just as well.
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    Just as a follow up I got my hands on that lot of DVD players, the ES10 in the lot was a bit dinged up but fully functional. I haven't tested the rest but I assume that most of them probably work, there's enough of them for me to sell and make my money back on the ES10.


    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    The remote is required for the Panasonics to verify that internal Line Noise Reduction is disabled (and in the case of NTSC only, set the black level). I think a remote that works with any of them will work with all, for the handful of buttons that you actually need. You could also get a cheapo programmable remote or low-end Logitech Harmony and use software to add the necessary buttons. If your smartphone has an IR blaster like my Samsung Galaxy S5, a free app may do just as well.
    My phone has an Inbuilt IR Blaster so there's plenty of apps that make use of that as a universal remote option, I've gotten one that works with the ES-10 and I was able to configure the menu options alright to set the type of I/O on each line.

    In terms of Line Noise Reduction the only setting I could find was a Comb Filter which I've disabled as I've read that the ES-10 over does any sort of processing effects. Aside from taking a while to realize that I had to bypass the unit and plug audio straight into the USB3HDCAP I haven't had any issues and my worst tape that I've been using as a benchmark comes through fine with absolutely no signal drops which is a major relief.

    I've done a few test captures and A/V sync is in order however I'm not sure if I should leave the Drop/Insert Frames boxes on Virtual Dubs Timing Settings checked or not. I've tested without however on long captures I expect there to be 1-2 dropped frames which may effect sync, I don't think leaving them checked will effect anything but I guess a few tests will sort that out. Only reason I'm worrying about this is that prior to the ES-10 I needed to select those in order to keep sync, but I'm guessing that now that the signal is cleaner that I shouldn't need them.

    Overall that was a very quick and easy solution and it's looking like that I can FINALLY get under way with my project after months of researching and worrying about what I needed to buy next.
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    I've completed a few 3 Hour test captures and have been slightly bewildered, the timing options at the top that I mentioned before gave varying results. I did 2 full run through captures of the same 3 Hour tape the only difference being the two settings set to drop and insert frames.

    The first capture with the settings resulted in a perfectly synced file however there was a noticeable 10-20ms of audio sync latency across that was visible throughout the file, meaning that the lips of people speaking didn't quite match the audio. It wasn't far off but certainly enough for it to be a throwaway recording, not ideal for any sort of result.

    Secondly I tried without the two options and the result was much better... for the first 3/4. After that there seems to be a point where it completely looses sync and the audio is seconds in front of the video, eventually getting to a point where the video stream actually pauses on one frame until the audio plays out; which is strange as the video track hadn't completed yet - nonetheless a useless capture.

    So obviously the insert / drop options need to be selected, I've noticed that there was a significant amount of around 400 frames dropped after the final capture was done however upon further investigation it appeared that I didn't have the "correct video timing" box selected.

    I currently have my timing set up as per Vaporeon800's settings in this post: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/366337-Proper-VirtualDub-timing-settings-for-best-...nc#post2338949

    The only difference being that I've selected Automatically disable resync, whether this will make any noticeable difference is up in the air. I'm just hoping at this point that the "Correct video timing" box was the issue otherwise I could be back to square one. The issue isn't as bad as it was previously now that I have the new hardware and am using the insert / drop options, it's just not "perfect" and at this stage I was really hoping for the 3 Hour recording to have no issues whatsoever.

    I'll see what the results are like with the revised settings and go from there.
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  25. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    The first capture with the settings resulted in a perfectly synced file however there was a noticeable 10-20ms of audio sync latency across that was visible throughout the file, meaning that the lips of people speaking didn't quite match the audio. It wasn't far off but certainly enough for it to be a throwaway recording, not ideal for any sort of result.
    This isn't a problem at all. You just apply an audio delay while editing/filtering/remuxing.
    Last edited by jagabo; 25th Jun 2017 at 09:51.
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  26. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    Aside from taking a while to realize that I had to bypass the unit and plug audio straight into the USB3HDCAP
    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    The first capture with the settings resulted in a perfectly synced file however there was a noticeable 10-20ms of audio sync latency across that was visible throughout the file
    Bypassing the DMR-ES10's audio path will cause audio desync for sure. Any frame synchronizer must cause a video delay, due to its use of buffering.

    However, as Jagabo said, this can easily be corrected. Possibly even during capture by changing the number next to "Fixed" in the Timing options to add delay.

    In the case of the Euro model, at least, posters on the German Gleitz forum recommend to delay the audio rather than capturing the DMR-ES10's output for two reasons (see bottom of post #6).

    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    I got my hands on that lot of DVD players ... I haven't tested the rest
    ...
    Overall that was a very quick and easy solution and it's looking like that I can FINALLY get under way with my project after months of researching and worrying about what I needed to buy next.
    Remember what I said about us only knowing about model performance by user testing? I'm sure others in your situation without access to an ES10 would appreciate you "paying it forward" by posting up samples comparing the correction abilities of your lot.
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    This isn't a problem at all. You just apply an audio delay while editing/filtering/remuxing.
    I figured this would be a plausible outcome, however I did run the capture again with the setting like I mentioned in my last post and the result was 0 dropped frames and 100% A/V sync. Now whilst this is great I'm not ready to say that this is fixed as I have previously ran into counts of pure luck with my USB2.0 dongle that miraculously kept sync over the whole recording, I'll be sure to run more tests to observe my results further.

    If it does mean that I need to delay the audio how am I supposed to figure out the amount? The A/V tracks due to the inserted / dropped frames are the same length so I can't use that to determine the latency, my guess is just work with a small clip until I figure out the amount.

    Originally Posted by vaporeon800 View Post
    Bypassing the DMR-ES10's audio path will cause audio desync for sure. Any frame synchronizer must cause a video delay, due to its use of buffering.
    Well unless I really screwed something up no audio was coming through into the USB3HDCAP if I used the S-Video and Composite for audio out of the ES-10, It didn't appear that there was any settings to assign the audio out only what type of video was coming in and going out.

    Reading here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/378624-Correct-way-to-connect-a-Panasonic-ES10-15-...BC#post2446233

    Seems to be no issue with routing the audio externally obviously just means I might need to clean it up and match it in post.

    Reading that thread also I have noticed the "Brightness pumping" but for the most part this is only visible on freeze frame using the pause button on my VCR, I can't be certain if this is noticeable on any recordings but I'll be sure to mention it if it effects anything.

    Remember what I said about us only knowing about model performance by user testing? I'm sure others in your situation without access to an ES10 would appreciate you "paying it forward" by posting up samples comparing the correction abilities of your lot.
    Don't write me off so quickly , I would be happy to run some tests once I've got everything sorted with the ES-10. At this stage I would like to just get some complete recordings of all of my tapes (Probably 20 or so) then I would be happy to experiment with some different hardware.
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  28. Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    If it does mean that I need to delay the audio how am I supposed to figure out the amount?
    Most media players have the ability to delay/advance the audio and they show you the amount. VLC, MPCHC, etc. Or you can use an editor that shows the audio waveform as well as the video (VirtualDub, AviSynth) and look for something obvious like gunshot, door slam, etc.

    Originally Posted by Polsom View Post
    Well unless I really screwed something up no audio was coming through into the USB3HDCAP if I used the S-Video and Composite for audio out of the ES-10
    Just to be clear... S-video and composite don't carry audio. Did you run audio cables from the VCR to the DVD recorder to the capture device?
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    Originally Posted by jagabo View Post
    Most media players have the ability to delay/advance the audio and they show you the amount. VLC, MPCHC, etc. Or you can use an editor that shows the audio waveform as well as the video (VirtualDub, AviSynth) and look for something obvious like gunshot, door slam, etc.
    If I ever need to do this I'll keep this in mind.

    Just to be clear... S-video and composite don't carry audio. Did you run audio cables from the VCR to the DVD recorder to the capture device?
    I know S-Video doesn't carry audio much the same as the Yellow composite output but the composite audio being the Red and White carry the left and right audio signals, which is exactly what I was routing out of the only composite output on the back of the ES-10.

    So I ran the 3 RCA cables from the VCR into the DVD players composite input, then from the DVD player I ran the S-Video out for video and the Audio from the Left / Right composite out into the USB3HDCAP. This setup resulted in no audio being picked up from Virtual Dub.

    This is more than likely just a software setting but I see no reason to bother worrying about it as bypassing the DVD player for audio hasn't given me any issues as now I've been able to do 2 full 3 Hour recordings without issue.
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    I've tried processing one full recording and have run into an issue with the de-interlacing using QTGMC on the Slow preset.

    I will attach a copy of a clip from the from the recording but as you can see there is constant shaking all over the clip which looks too me like the interlacing has failed. I'm really not sure what to do in order to fix this as I've used these same StaxRip settings on a recording done with my previous capture device without issue, it's just a simple cut to eliminate garbage frames captured at the start and end, QTGMC on slow and then a H.264 pass with the Medium preset and Film Tune. All of this is being done at 12Mbps.

    Should I be using something else to do the encode or is the problem with the capture?
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