ALPHA Channel videos - use in Nero 15

[Clark711]

I mostly use Nero 15 for my video editing, authoring, and burning. I know that some people will recommend dropping Nero for a "better" video tool. And I may at some point. But, for now, I'm well past the hill climb of the learning curve and will continue with it.

I wanted to place some ALPHA channel video loops in a video I was creating. I purchased two ALPHA channel video clips, for a hobby Christmas video I was creating.

My hope/intent was to have a partially transparent video over my main video. The partially transparent videos would be of ringing bells and music notes. So, I wanted the bells to ring, but my main video would still display underneath the ringing bells. The same would be true for the music notes.

With Nero Video 15, I inserted the ALPHA videos, then went through a trial-and-error period to try to make the bells display correctly. Nero Support was not help. Some forum members did try to help me, but they were not knowledgeable on this subject.

In Nero Video, I used this setting for the ALPHA video clips...
Keying
Chroma Key
Key Color = Black
Similarity - Zero

I got these results in this test video.

https://vimeo.com/115431259

I then emailed with the creator of the ringing bell ALPHA video clip. He said that I should be using "Luma Matte", and not "Chroma Key". But he was speaking in general, and not specifically for Nero. I cannot find Luma Matte in Nero. Support is not supporting.

So, any others know how to use ALPHA channel video clips in Nero ? I can use them, sorta, but not as well as I want. You'll see my results in the video with the Vimeo link.

https://vimeo.com/115431259

Thanks in advance,

Clark

[poisondeathray]

I don't use nero, but you definitely should NOT be color keying an alpha channel clip. The whole point of buying clips with an alpha channel is so you don't have to key , since transparency is already there

What format are the clips? MOV ? Quicktime ? It might be as simple as installing quicktime

You shouldn't use a "luma matte" either, unless the clips you bought actually had 2 clips per video. 1 of them would be black and white , that is the luma matte. If the clips you bought were just single, then the alpha channel has to be embedded (or RGBA, the A for "alpha" channel)

In some programs, you have to interpret the alpha channel. (essentially "activating" it or telling the program "hey look at me, I'm an alpha channel"). See if you can either right clip the clip in the clip bin for more options , or on the timeline for more options related to interpreting the alpha

[Cornucopia]

I recommend you drop Nero for a better editing tool. Then you wouldn't be having this problem.

Scott

BTW, a Luma Matte (edit->KEY) would also NOT work for that particular clip, since the shadows of the inside of the bell already seem to be at Zero. Unless you do a garbage mask - and then you might as well be roto'ing the mask yourself. Pretty shitty "alpha" clip (DCT ringing, etc) if you ask me.

[racer-x]

I don't use Nero either, but look for a setting like "import alpha channel" or similar.

I would recommend doing it (or at least the effect clip) in aviutl (free), but somehow I don't think you'd be interested........

[poisondeathray]

BTW, a Luma Matte would also NOT work for that particular clip, since the shadows of the inside of the bell already seem to be at Zero. Unless you do a garbage mask - and then you might as well be roto'ing the mask yourself. Pretty shitty "alpha" clip (DCT ringing, etc) if you ask me.

luma keying wouldn't work, but "luma matte" would work if it was supplied. Many places that sell clips provide a separate alpha (2nd video clip) . It's a luma mask clip or Adobe calls it a "luma matte". It's really the alpha channel expressed as greyscale

I also recommend using something else, the free aviutl racer-x suggested would work




Is this you Clark711 ?

http://forum.nero.com/nero_eng/topics/does-nero-14-or-15-support-alpha-channels-is-the...-on-this-topic

To summarize, it seems PNG with alpha works, but some video formats with alpha don't work, is that correct ?

Use mediainfo (View => text) , copy & paste the text back here on the clip that doesn't work properly.

Since the alpha channel works in at least one format, it's likely an issue of alpha interpretation

Another option if you can't get it working - If nero can import image sequences, you can convert to to a PNG (with alpha) sequence since you know PNG+alpha works . Or Nero might allow it to work with other video formats that have alpha (you might convert it to something else like lagarith RGBA or ut video codec RGBA)

[Clark711]

Yep, that's me... On the Nero forum. Got a bit tense there for a bit.

The creator of the ALPHA video just told me in email, about the same thing as you -- that I should not be using Chroma keying, Color keying. However, when I don't use Chroma Keying in both of my video programs -- Nero and Power Director 12, the black background on the bells displays as black, and is not transparent.

>> To summarize, it seems PNG with alpha works, but some video formats with alpha don't work, is that correct ?

Well, no, I don't think that's correct. The issue is that I CAN make my two ALPHA files transparent in their black areas, but they don't display really good. The objects (bells, music notes) have ragged black edges, or may have black ragged holes in the objects. And the only way that I can make the black areas transparent is to use Chroma keying.

Here's the mediainfo... Please ask again, if I didn't make sense.

General
Complete name : C:\Users\Clark\Videos\Looping Background Videos\Double_Bell_Ringing_ALPHA.mov
Format : MPEG-4
Format profile : QuickTime
Codec ID : qt
File size : 156 MiB
Duration : 9s 633ms
Overall bit rate mode : Variable
Overall bit rate : 135 Mbps
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:36:19
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:41:59
Writing library : Apple QuickTime
©TIM : 00:00:00:00
©TSC : 30
©TSZ : 1

Video
ID : 1
Format : PNG
Format/Info : Portable Network Graphic
Codec ID : png
Duration : 9s 633ms
Bit rate mode : Variable
Bit rate : 135 Mbps
Width : 1 920 pixels
Height : 1 080 pixels
Display aspect ratio : 16:9
Frame rate mode : Constant
Frame rate : 30.000 fps
Compression mode : Lossless
Bits/(Pixel*Frame) : 2.178
Stream size : 156 MiB (100%)
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:36:19
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:41:59

Other
ID : 2
Type : Time code
Format : QuickTime TC
Duration : 9s 633ms
Time code of first frame : 00:00:00:00
Time code, striped : Yes
Language : English
Encoded date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:41:59
Tagged date : UTC 2012-03-25 13:41:59

[poisondeathray]

I meant PNG with alpha, the image format - does that work correctly in nero ? You displayed a christmas tree in the other thread. Did you have to "key " that as well or did it work right away without problems ?

Do you have quicktime installed ?

[Clark711]

PNG, the image format, works fine in Nero. I have taken many JPG image files, removed the background with Photoshop, like I did for that simple Christmas tree, saved them back as PNG files. They work fine, are completely transparent in their "background area", so that the image or video files under them display fine.

There are no ragged black edges, no ragged black holes in the PNG image area.

No, I did not "key" that. And I really do not know if the PNG file is "alpha". To me, it's just a PNG file.

I have QT Player installed. Not QT Pro.

[poisondeathray]

Do you understand why you shouldn't be keying? All similar colors will be "knocked out" or transparent. If you key out "black", all black colors will become transparent. SO if the bell had shades of black, there will be holes in the bell. It's the same thing as chroma keying for green screen. If the actor wears a green shirt, that shirt will become "transparent" just like the background.





The bell clip you have is PNG in MOV container. Since Nero can use PNG (the image format) with alpha, it's not unreasonable that it should work with PNG in MOV.

There is a small chance that the author made a mistake, perhaps there is an issue with those clips - but people are human ; here are links to some other alpha channel clips you can test, verified to be working (at least in other programs)

https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/364194-Zipper-transition?p=2318955&viewfull=1#post2318955
https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/364194-Zipper-transition?p=2319053&viewfull=1#post2319053

The one named "lagarith" requires lagarith to be installed

The one in the zip file is a PNG (RGBA) image sequence. That should work in any program, like your tree. Many programs use image sequences as video as a preferre format. The problem is if nero will import sequentially numbered image sequences automatically (ie. does it do it automatically and the proper duration, or is it possible to assign a FPS? )

Here is the same thing in QT animation format (QTRLE) (on windows you'd need quicktime installed) .

If one or more of these work, it might be as simple as converting your clips to a format that nero supports properly

[Clark711]

Thanks for the explanation on keying. I do understand -- now... (I didn't, before your explanation.)

I do plan to try your files.

FWIW, here's a video I created using PowerDirector 12 and the same alpha bell file. Now that I understand Chroma keying, it's probably not worth much. . I did use Chroma keying, with different settings of Saturation Tolerance, because I could not make the black background transparent without using keying. So, it has basically the same result - black areas where they should not be.

https://vimeo.com/115482458

I don't know if PowerDirector is supposed to automatically recognize Alpha files. I'm using it for the first time today, and am learning as I go. But it did NOT automatically make those black areas of the bell video to be transparent, and I haven't yet seen a setting to tell it to do that.

[poisondeathray]

Now that I understand Chroma keying, it's probably not worth much.

It is useful - but for other situations, not for clips that have prepared alpha channel

I don't know if PowerDirector is supposed to automatically recognize Alpha files. I'm using it for the first time today, and am learning as I go. But it did NOT automatically make those black areas of the bell video to be transparent, and I haven't yet seen a setting to tell it to do that.

All programs are "supposed" to. These alpha channel clips are supposed to be drag and drop easy to use, just like a PNG image with alpha is drag and drop

But some programs "expect" RGB for video, not RGBA, and you have to "indicate" that the clip has an embedded alpha channel. In many programs, you just right click the clip and there should be some other options to interpret the alpha channel. You might have to right click it in the clip bin, or on the timeline

Even if you can't get it working, you can convert it to to a PNG sequence, since Nero works with that (as demonstrated by your tree), but you don't want to have to import frame by frame. Hopefully it can import image sequences automatically like other programs, and assign frame rates

[Clark711]

Well, I'm probably stupid.

I tried the file - zipper1_PNG_RGBA_1.mov . I see that it's supposed to zip up a black "cloth" over the image under it. Neat.

Except that the only way I can see the image file behind/under the zipper is to use keying, both in Nero and PowerDirector. And then when I use color keying, too much of the zipper video becomes transparent, and the effect is lost.

I need to quit playing for a while. Need to go shopping with the wife. She's well worth it.

[racer-x]

In order to properly use an animated png.mov clip in Windows, you need Quicktime or QTalternative installed. Do you have that installed?

[poisondeathray]

At least with older power director versions they flat out say it doesn't work with video that has alpha channel, only image files
http://forum.cyberlink.com/forum/posts/list/25523.page#138816

But with newer versions it's supposed to work
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ss6f36UgVw8

My advice, don' t use garbage software. Time is too precious

[Clark711]

I upgraded from Power Director 12 to Power Director 13 this morning. Thanks for the info that PDR 13 does support Alpha channels. I now have the alpha clips "mostly" working, as show in this short test video.

https://vimeo.com/115535617

Two of the alpha channel clips in this video - the zipper clip and the bells clip - did not preview with transparency in PDR 13, but did finalize properly. Also, Titles in PDR 13 did not always Preview correctly, but did finalize correctly.

I do now have alpha channel clips working in Power Director 13. I've given up on Nero.

Thanks again for your help.

Clark

[poisondeathray]

So it was just the preview that did not work properly , but the export worked properly on this last test ?

What was the difference between the clips that previewed properly? (use mediainfo to check again)

[Clark711]

Yes, Preview did not work (did not display the alpha channel transparency properly, displayed black instead) for one-half of my Alpha video clips, but did finalize properly to finished video fine. The other two both Previewed and exported fine.

I looked at all 4 mediinfo text files, but could not see something that I felt to be material.

They are all attached.

1_Fire
2_Notes
Both previewed and finalized fine

3_Zipper
4_Bells
Neither previewed the transparency correctly, but did finalize to video with the transparency correct.

And I had some Titles that did not Preview correctly -- they simply did not show in Preview but did in the video.

Whew !!!

[poisondeathray]

hmmm doesn't quite make sense. The fire , bell , and zipper all use PNG in MOV , yet only the fire clip previews normally out of those 3. Weird.

The qtrle.mov in the zip file in post #9 above uses the same as musical notes, you can test that if you want




So it still seems a bit buggy to me. Maybe they do this on purpose to get you to keep on upgrading LOL

[Clark711]

Actually, two files previewed correctly -- Fire and Notes.

Also, I just tested your zipper file -- Qtrle. It previewed and exported fine. My zipper file - here -- https://secure.logmein.com/f?00_9O5TDY9sC9H-F6LyZiUz4dNqh5G0owPmULKmikrX did not preview correctly, but was black instead. The exported file was fine. Both look identical, and are likely the same file that was modified by someone.

Clark

[poisondeathray]

Yes, I said out of those 3, that use PNG in MOV, only the fire clip previews. The Notes clip uses RLE, not PNG (RLE is essentially the same thing as QTRLE, it stands for Quicktime Run Length Encoding)

I don't know if you care or not, but since qtrle works, you can convert everything to qtrle and everything should be able to be previewed correctly. There is no quality loss in the conversion . One way to do that is ffmpeg , it requires command line usage