MPEG-2 aspect ratio problem when burn to DVD (Will pay $50 for solution)

[prodos]

Greetings.

If anyone can provide step-by-step instructions (that I can follow) and that can fix the following "aspect ratio" problem I will happily pay or donate $50.

BACKGROUND

Our non-profit film library has purchased a collection of "public domain" movies in the form of mpeg-2 files from a commercial supplier of public domain movies.

The picture and sound quality is pretty good.

The plan is to make these films available in DVD form to registered non-profit film societies and film clubs in Australia at cost price.
(As a small self-funded non-profit educational institution run entirely by volunteers we do not and can not sell films.)

Anyway ...

PROBLEM

The problem is that all the films seems to be stretched vertically and I haven't been able to figure out how fix this.

Using the 30 day free trial version of Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD 5.0 and following THESE instructions I set the PAR to 9 / 16 and got this -- a horizontally over-stretched picture.

This is what it looks like played with Windows Media Player ...





Then I tried setting the PAR to "1.000 (square sample)"



And got a perfectly proportioned picture.

Like so ...

Screenshots of file played with Windows Media Player ...





However ...

When I burn this supposedly perfectly proportioned file to DVD it ends up wrongly proportioned -- stretched.

Also, using VLC Media Player, when I play the VIDEO_TS folder that's created in the process of creating the DVD, it's stretched too.

I've tried every setting I can think of and burned DVD after DVD but no luck.

If I uploaded a snippet of one of the original mpeg-2 films -- say, a 5 minute excerpt -- would someone like to diagnose it and have a shot at solving this problem?

Edit: Here is a 5 minute snippet of one of the mpeg-2 film files (140 MB) ...
http://fismotron.education/Algiers_snippet.mpg

i.e. To show me how to go from stretched MPEG-2 file to correctly proportioned DVD.

If you prefer to email me directly, no problem: prodos@fismotron.education

Thanks for any help advice.

Best Wishes,

Prodos S N Marinakis
Melbourne, Australia
TYSPOM Film Library
Phone: +613 9428 1234

[jagabo]

I'm pretty sure DVD doesn't support 1:1 PAR. If 1:1 PAR is correct, you'll need to resize the video and use standard 4:3 or 16:9 DAR to get a proper display on DVD.

[DB83]

I hereby claim the $50 Aus. What that will buy maybe a 6 pick of tinnies

The issue is quite simple. If this sample is representative of them all then it is NTSC 720*480 whereas you probably attempted to encode at PAL 720*576 so ended up stretching the vertical.

So just encode at NTSC - Oz is PAL but will playback NTSC without issue - 4:3 and let your player determine the correct display (add the bars when viewed at 16:9). Re-author at 16:9 and you will stretch both horizontal and vertical at PAL)

[jagabo]

Crop 40 pixels off the left and right (leaving 640x480). Resize what's left to 720x480. Encode for NTSC DVD with 4:3 DAR. Or if you don't need DVD compatibility you can leave it square pixel. It could also use some frame rate work to eliminate duplicate frames. And some cleaning. You could also convert from NTSC to PAL since you're in a PAL area. Attached is a sample with just the above resizing, decimation to 23.976 fps (still a few duplicate frames), and some levels adjustments -- encoded for NTSC DVD with 3:2 pulldown flags.

[usually_quiet]

I'm not claiming the prize, just saying what I see.

Old movies frequently used the academy aspect ratio 1.375:1 (11:8). From your screenshots it looks like your samples have a 1.375:1 picture area with a black bar added on the left and right side to pad it to a 1.5:1 aspect ratio, and square pixels. Using square pixels, NTSC's DVD resolution, 720x480, has a 1.5:1 aspect ratio, as DB83 surmised. However as Jagabo noted, the DVD standard only gives you a choice between 4:3 (1.33:1) and 16:9 (1.78:1) aspect ratio and doesn't use square pixels.

Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD 5.0 doesn't have the right tools to fix your video. AVStoDVD probably could fix it if someone writes an Avisynth script for you. (That someone probably should not be me, as my experience with Avisynth is limited.)

[jagabo]

I believe the video was captured at 640x480 (square pixel) then pillarboxed into a 720x480 frame before encoding.

[usually_quiet]

I believe the video was captured at 640x480 (square pixel) then pillarboxed into a 720x480 frame before encoding.

Yes. Now that I downloaded the video, I can see that. I was going by the screenshots only. The video was not yet uploaded when I began looking at this thread.

[prodos]

Greetings.

A quick note ... to thank you all for your replies.

I'll respond in more detail later this afternoon when I get back home.



Best Wishes,

Prodos

[jagabo]

A little better for on-line use:

[awgie]

So a couple users have suggested burning the DVDs as NTSC, since the videos appear to be formatted as such. However, that triggers a potential problem, since Australia uses the PAL system, so even if the DVD is created as "region free", it still might not play correctly on every Australian television. (Of course, it isn't as much of a problem trying to play NTSC in Australia as it would be trying to play PAL in the USA.) It should be able to play correctly using a projector, since many projectors automatically select the correct system to use.

The first thing I would do with your Mpeg files is use MediaInfo to determine exactly how they are formatted. If the pixel ratio matches one of the standards, it will show either PAL or NTSC. That will take out the guesswork. Also, PAL is 25 fps and NTSC is 29.97 fps, as opposed to Film, which is 24 fps.

Worst-case scenario would be to use a program like Sony Vegas (I use the inexpensive version - as opposed to the Pro version), and crop the black bars and then re-size and re-encode the video exactly how you need it. Just make sure you keep the frame rate the same as it was in the original Mpeg file, or you can wind up with either some jittering in the video, or some unwanted artifacts from frames that have to be blended together.

Another option would be to make them available to these film societies/clubs in digital form (I imagine - perhaps erroneously - that many such organisations would have the means by which to play digital media files). If you use a program like AVI.net, it will give you an AVI file with a 1:1 pixel ratio that will play on almost any media player. (Some media players - like my BD player here at home - don't like seeing the DivX codec in the video header, so you might need to change it so it shows up as Xvid instead.) And AVI.net is designed to automatically crop the black bars off the video.

[Cornucopia]

Knowing those users, I would think that they would be thinking along the lines of: "if the file has already been corrupted by being incorrectly captured in NTSC format, trying to convert it AGAIN to PAL would just double the corruption, not fix it?", or "if the original source happend to be NTSC to begin with, why change it when many PAL players don't have trouble playing NTSC (though the reverse is clearly not true)?"

Those are 2 scenarios, but you shouldn't even assume that the original source is clear from their extant metadata. You often can only be assured of the appropriate course of action if you know the full provenance of the file (and thus, the creator's intention).

Scott

[jagabo]

What MediaInfo tells you will be nearly useless. The MPEG file is 29.97 fps, 4:3 DAR, encoded interlaced. Although that is how it's encoded the underlying video is very different.

The video is encoded interlaced but the frames that were given to the encoder were progressive. You can treat them as progressive. Worse, it looks like the original analog video was interlaced and was deinterlaced by discarding one field, then performing a point resize to bring the remaining field up to 480 lines. That created a lot of aliasing.

The DAR is 4:3 but the video was prepared incorrectly. The original 1.37:1 movie was probably telecined to video tape as 4:3 DAR. But when it was digitized it was probably captured with a 640x480 (4:3 DAR, square pixel) frame. Black borders were added to the frame to bring it up to standard NTSC DVD size, 720x480 (rather than the correct procedure of stretching it to 720x480 or squishing it to 352x480). It was then encoded as 4:3 DAR. So the movie displays with the wrong aspect ratio.

Although the video is 29.97 fps the underlying film frame rate appears to be ~23 fps. There is a frame repeat pattern like:

1 2 3 3 4 5 6 6 7 8 9 0 0

Ie, three repeats in every 13 frames. You can see this clearly if you step through the video frame by frame. 29.97 * 10 / 13 ~= 23.054 fps. That's why my earlier IVTC to 23.976 fps left some duplicate frames. I don't have any good explanation of how the video got to be like this.

The film which was originally telecined was very dirty. Just about every frame has obvious scratches, dust, mold, etc. The film was black and white but the file has a very obvious yellow cast.

So the issue is how much time and effort does one want to expend fixing these issues. Exactly what you do depends on your target -- NTSC? PAL? DVD? Streaming video? Do you want to keep the "authentic" dirty color cast look? Do you want to spend years fixing every frame by hand?

[prodos]

Dear Friends,

I've finally had a chance to get back to the computer and work my way through the responses.

Thank you to everyone for chipping in.

A lot of the comments go over my head.

DB83 wrote:

If this sample is representative of them all then it is NTSC 720*480 whereas you probably attempted to encode at PAL 720*576 so ended up stretching the vertical.

I'm pretty sure I used NTSC in the version shown in the screenshots.
In any case I've tried encoding using both NTSC and PAL settings, but the result was always some sort of stretchiness.

Thanks to usually_quiet for his observations and recommended software.


awgie wrote:

Another option would be to make them available to these film societies/clubs in digital form

Thanks for the suggestion. However, many film societies (as you suggested was possible) don't know how to use digital or don't like using it.

Thanks to Cornucopia for his thoughts on the issues.

jagabo has posted several responses.

Most significantly he has uploaded a fixed version of the mpeg-2 file.

Downloading it and playing it I find that not only is it correctly proportioned, it has also been improved in appearance.
Much nicer contrast/brightness and no "tint" or washed-out look.

I burned this fixed clip to DVD and it came out very well. Aspect/Display ratio correct, and the look, nice and clear.

Jagabo's diagnosis of the problem seems to be extraordinarily in-depth and based on actually working with and directly testing the mpeg-2 file.

(Jagabo: I've PM-ed you, by the way.)

Jagabo writes:

The film which was originally telecined was very dirty. Just about every frame has obvious scratches, dust, mold, etc. The film was black and white but the file has a very obvious yellow cast.

Yes, that's right. The commercial supplier of this -- and the other - public domain films our film library purchased has made the mpeg-2 files from 16mm and 35mm prints that the supplier has collected over the years. Most of the prints used were already somewhat deteriorated and have lots of flaws. However, the film my clip was taken from, ALGIERS (1938), is in a worse state than most of the others.

Jagabo:

So the issue is how much time and effort does one want to expend fixing these issues. Exactly what you do depends on your target -- NTSC? PAL? DVD? Streaming video? Do you want to keep the "authentic" dirty color cast look? Do you want to spend years fixing every frame by hand?

Final form: NTSC DVD.

The degree of improvement achieved by the "fixed" clip would be fine.

In fact it would be fabulous.

I look forward to your further thoughts and to those of others.

Much appreciated.



Best Wishes,

Prodos
TYSPOM Film Library
Melbourne, Australia

[prodos]

We have a winner!

This afternoon, following the instructions provided by "jagabo" (some via private message), I have now successfully fixed the aspect/display ratio problem!

Using Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD 5.0 I did the following:

• Cropped 40 pixels off the left
• Cropped 40 pixels off the right
• Stretched the remaining frame to 720x480
• Re-encode the clip to 4:3 DAR

I then burned this to DVD and voila! Done!

I will now PM the winner and send him his fifty bucks.

PS: And as a bonus, I hereby declare today a public holiday across Australia, USA, and the UK ... and the rest of the semi-free world.

[usually_quiet]

We have a winner!

This afternoon, following the instructions provided by "jagabo" (some via private message), I have now successfully fixed the aspect/display ratio problem!

Using Womble MPEG Video Wizard DVD 5.0 I did the following:

• Cropped 40 pixels off the left
• Cropped 40 pixels off the right
• Stretched the remaining frame to 720x480
• Re-encode the clip to 4:3 DAR

I then burned this to DVD and voila! Done!

I will now PM the winner and send him his fifty bucks.

PS: And as a bonus, I hereby declare today a public holiday across Australia, USA, and the UK ... and the rest of the semi-free world.

I should thank you too. After knowing it existed and searching for it, I found MPEG Video Wizard DVD's crop function. It was in the "Effects" filter list, rather than in the "Expert" Window where I had looked for it and expected it to be.

[DB83]

Damn.

Seems I will have to pay for my own tinnies then.

Glad to read tho that it's sorted.

[NoBuddy]

@ prodos:
Have you tried to apply the "Old Film" Effect / Black & White in Womble? To get rid off the yellowish color of the film.
For my eyes, film looks clearer this way. But maybe loses "soul"

[prodos]

Damn.

Seems I will have to pay for my own tinnies then.

Glad to read tho that it's sorted.

Well, if I get to the UK or you get to Australia, the drinks are on me.

Best Wishes,

Prodos

[prodos]

@ prodos:
Have you tried to apply the "Old Film" Effect / Black & White in Womble? To get rid off the yellowish color of the film.
For my eyes, film looks clearer this way. But maybe loses "soul"

Thanks for the suggestion. I'll give that a shot.

I'm currently on the trial version of WOMBLE.
Do you think it's a good programme to buy?

Best Wishes,

Prodos

[prodos]

I should thank you too. After knowing it existed and searching for it, I found MPEG Video Wizard DVD's crop function. It was in the "Effects" filter list, rather than in the "Expert" Window where I had looked for it and expected it to be.

Glad to know that proved helpful.

Best Wishes,

Prodos

[usually_quiet]

I'm currently on the trial version of WOMBLE.
Do you think it's a good programme to buy?

I have MPEG Video Wizard DVD. I also have VideoReDo TV suite H.264. Both can author DVDs, but I use them for editing video. MPEG Video Wizard DVD is good editor for beginners and seems like it would be OK for simple DVD authoring, although I find the interface to be a bit strange.

I tend to use other software for DVD authoring, AVStoDVD or GUIforDVDAuthor, which are free. I began using GUIforDVDAuthor first, so I have a lot of project files that I continue to re-use. GUIforDVDAuthor offers more advanced authoring features than a template-drivien program like MPEG Video Wizared DVD, but is harder to learn to use. AVStoDVD offers conversion for DVD compatibility which I use from time to time to make DVDs out of DTV captures, but it only authors DVDs with a simple menu or no menu. That being said, many people only need a DVD with a simple menu or no menu.

[gastrof]

Would Avidemux have solved this problem as well?

[jagabo]

Would Avidemux have solved this problem as well?

Some of it yes. For example:



Oh, I forgot to change the output to MPEG PS.

[jagabo]

[SIZE="6"]This afternoon, following the instructions provided by "jagabo" (some via private message), I have now successfully fixed the aspect/display ratio problem!... I will now PM the winner and send him his fifty bucks.

I can confirm that Prodos made good on his word and sent me US$50 via a mutually agreed upon method. Thanks Prodos!

[DB83]

@jagabo.

Nice one and cudos to the OP. I was thinking he meant Aus$ (somewhat less in value)

Which reminds me of the time I ordered a dvd from Down Under. The seller put the value on the Customs declaration except that Customs valued it in US$ and I paid much more in duty than I ought.

[prodos]

Would Avidemux have solved this problem as well?

Thanks for that suggestion.

More or less copying jagabo's screenshot (comment #23) I was able to get a good result with Avidemux.

In fact, better than I got using WOMBLE. But it's possible I made an error in my WOMBLE settings.

Best Wishes,

Prodos