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  1. Member
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    Originally Posted by Kilohertz View Post
    Gentlemen, I stumbled on F7 M2

    Cheers

    Enjoy your beer

    Yes, when working with machine vision cameras one might get lost in all those options.

    With my Flea, the format is 'format7 M0' and this means 16 bits raw color. If I understand it well, the picture is internal(in camera) captured at 16 bits, then converted to 8 bits for the output. And it's raw, so debayering is done by the capture software in real time. So, your modus F7 M2 might be similar.

    After some learnig, it looks like you will have great results!

    Fred.
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  2. Member
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    Another good day of transfer and a bit more playing with Film9.

    I have a question regarding the interpolation settings. I am wondering what would be the best settings to use to get rid of jittery movement on things like a swing set, or when the camera pans. I am currently getting jumpy looking results, ie like frames are missing. So instead of say having 100 frames in a pan shot I am only seeing 40 or 50. I tried interpolation, and smooth, and mixing, but I can't seem to get the right combination.

    Thank you

    PS Fred I reread both the camera manual and AVT software manual again today to find out why I was getting pixelation. Couldn't really determine the cause, perhaps something to do with debayering?? It almost looks like the debayer grid subtlety in the background, yet in the mode I am using now, even though I am still using the internal debayering, not seeing the grid. Oh well, Happy with the way it is working.

    And I think I have managed to get a few samples loaded onto the interweb. Hope these work okay. I think I lost some detail in the making of clips as I used Movie maker to split the 15 minute film. I wasn't about to learn Resolve tonight. Oh, and yes that's me, the little 2 year old in the films.

    Get the popcorn it's showtime

    https://vimeo.com/321419125

    https://vimeo.com/321420393

    https://vimeo.com/321422403
    Last edited by Kilohertz; 5th Mar 2019 at 01:12.
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  3. Member
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    Hello Kilohertz,

    The problem of interpolation is not simple on fast and panoramic movements.
    On your videos, I do not see the artifacts often usually caused when we interpolate.
    But, on the other hand, one perceives saccades, as if it lacked intermediate images.
    Can you tell us what is the frame rate of your source video ?
    And what are the parameters chosen in Projects and in the Interpolation window ?

    The quality and finesse of your videos is very good.
    However, if you have not already done so, you should clean the film to limit the vertical lines.
    The function of FILM9 is not always sufficient when the lines are too wide and numerous.
    And then, you can clean the borders of the image with the function "Black Edges".

    The excellent result happens.
    Gilles
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  4. Member
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    Thank you for your encouraging word Gilles, appreciate it.

    Source is 18 fps, and in project settings I chose 18 fps, with synchro, silent, and save as AVI H.264 10 Mbps.

    In the window "interpolation" I chose "interpolation, smooth and 29.97 fps"

    Stabilization is +3 and +3

    As far as the scratches are concerned, I have cleaned the film multiple times, I am using a deer skin soft shammy piece saturated in naptha with a small weight compressing the 2 pieces together, it is not a "wet gate" but more of a "damp gate". I could investigate making it more wet to help fill in the scratches. This particular film is possibley the worst for scratches, the other ones seem better.

    Borders, no I haven't tried that function yet and I will once I get the basics sorted out.

    So I think the software is excellent for this sort of work, and I am very happy with the results so far, it really exceeds my expectations of what can be extracted from 8mm film.

    Thank you

    PS link to my telecine machine if you are interested.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/04av6756fnki248/IMG_6425.avi?dl=0
    Last edited by Kilohertz; 5th Mar 2019 at 12:44.
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  5. Member
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    Nice machine, it's nice to see people make their own scanner.
    I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this practice is much more widespread in Europe than in the American continent.
    While the quality you get has nothing to envy to professional machines.
    It may give some ideas to others, so much the better.

    For the cleaning of the film, 99.9% isopropyl alcohol is used.
    Otherwise I cry every day can not bring the "FilmGard" in Switzerland, it is a fairly expensive product but also reduces the stripes of films and allows to do the wetgate capture.

    For your interpolation problem, you can also try to work without interpolation on Film9 and change the speed on DaVinci Resolve.
    It's up to you to see what's best for you.

    Congratulations for your work!
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  6. Member
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    Originally Posted by Kilohertz View Post
    As far as the scratches are concerned, I have cleaned the film multiple times, I am using a deer skin soft shammy piece saturated in naptha with a small weight compressing the 2 pieces together, it is not a "wet gate" but more of a "damp gate". I could investigate making it more wet to help fill in the scratches. This particular film is possibley the worst for scratches, the other ones seem better.
    Your "damp gate" is not wet enough. There must be more naptha on the film. Use more shammy pieces to hold the naphta.
    It should be possible to hide almost all the scrathes.
    This is how I did it:
    https://youtu.be/Nsk4Eb1Lzq4

    Unfortunately, the C2D capturing software and the special RGB led lightsource is not available anymore for home users.
    It is now part of the Filmfabriek (Muller) scanner.


    PS link to my telecine machine if you are interested.

    https://www.dropbox.com/s/04av6756fnki248/IMG_6425.avi?dl=0
    Very well done! What light source do you use?

    Fred.
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  7. Member
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    Originally Posted by Gelinox View Post
    Otherwise I cry every day can not bring the "FilmGard" in Switzerland, it is a fairly expensive product but also reduces the stripes of films and allows to do the wetgate capture.
    Cleaning Naphta is cheap and it works great! It works even better when mixed with liquid paraffin.
    In my youtube tutorial I mentioned 40% but 10% will be enough. But it does no harm.
    I must change this in the clip

    Fred.
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    Thank you very much Fred for these tips.
    Because of the translation (and my very low level of English), I had badly translated the word Naphtha ..
    I thought it was a stuff ....
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  9. Member
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    Originally Posted by Gelinox View Post
    Thank you very much Fred for these tips.
    You are welcome!

    The naphta I am talking about is called in Dutch: 'wasbenzine'
    In French: 'essence nettoyer'
    The best translation in English I can find is 'cleaning naptha'

    I'm using it for years now and it's absolutely harmless for film.

    Fred.
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    Originally Posted by videofred View Post
    Your "damp gate" is not wet enough. There must be more naptha on the film. Use more shammy pieces to hold the naphta.
    It should be possible to hide almost all the scrathes.
    This is how I did it:
    https://youtu.be/Nsk4Eb1Lzq4

    Unfortunately, the C2D capturing software and the special RGB led lightsource is not available anymore for home users.
    It is now part of the Filmfabriek (Muller) scanner.
    Thanks Fred. I have practically memorized your 2 tutorial videos, watched them many times. I will add more pieces and use more naphtha.

    I also searched high and low for the older free version of C2D but couldn't find it anywhere, it really looks like it would have been the perfect solution for me and eliminated a lot of struggle with AVT software.

    Originally Posted by videofred View Post
    Very well done! What light source do you use?
    Thank you, I appreciate the compliments from someone with so much more experience than me. The LED is a 10W COB (chip on board) daylight balanced LED module. It is 10 volt DC at 1A and produces an amazing amount of light. I set the white balance in the capture software with no film in the machine so that is started off 255, 255, 255 and then locked it there. Any incorrect WB from the original film will have to be corrected in post.

    This is the LED, it's about 2x2 cm.

    Click image for larger version

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  11. Member
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    Originally Posted by Gelinox View Post
    Nice machine, it's nice to see people make their own scanner.
    I may be wrong, but it seems to me that this practice is much more widespread in Europe than in the American continent.
    While the quality you get has nothing to envy to professional machines.
    It may give some ideas to others, so much the better.

    For the cleaning of the film, 99.9% isopropyl alcohol is used.
    Otherwise I cry every day can not bring the "FilmGard" in Switzerland, it is a fairly expensive product but also reduces the stripes of films and allows to do the wetgate capture.

    For your interpolation problem, you can also try to work without interpolation on Film9 and change the speed on DaVinci Resolve.
    It's up to you to see what's best for you.

    Congratulations for your work!
    Thank you for your compliments, It's good to know that I have somewhat succeeded with my project, it has been almost 3 months now of daily work.

    I will make a few tests without interpolation to see what results I get. I have Resolve loaded on my computer, but haven't yet learned to use it. That may be something I should learn.

    Thanks again!
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  12. Member
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    Originally Posted by videofred View Post
    Originally Posted by Gelinox View Post
    Otherwise I cry every day can not bring the "FilmGard" in Switzerland, it is a fairly expensive product but also reduces the stripes of films and allows to do the wetgate capture.
    Cleaning Naphta is cheap and it works great! It works even better when mixed with liquid paraffin.
    In my youtube tutorial I mentioned 40% but 10% will be enough. But it does no harm.
    I must change this in the clip

    Fred.
    And this is something else I need to investigate. I have been using Coleman camping fuel, which is naphtha, but I haven't been able to find liquid paraffin. In my research this morning, I found variations of naphtha are called Kerosene, and something else called "liquid paraffin", this was a Wikipedia description for naphtha. Kerosene is cheap and easy to find locally, not sure if that would work? I also found "lamp oil" paraffin based, I wonder if that would be okay? There is also medicinal paraffin oil but haven't been able to find that locally.

    I'll try to locate liquid paraffin and make my damp gate, a wet gate.

    Cheers
    Last edited by Kilohertz; 6th Mar 2019 at 13:37.
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  13. Member
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    Originally Posted by Kilohertz View Post
    There is also medicinal paraffin oil but haven't been able to find that locally.
    This is the paraffin I am using. Not for medical use of cource

    Fred.
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    Quick update.

    Re: the jumpy-jittery flow of the film, I have fixed that by using Interpolation, and setting for 59.94 fps instead of 29.97 fps, made it perfectly smooth, although now it looks more like video rather than film, but super clear and smooth movements.

    I found pure paraffin oil, it's a very good quality lamp oil and it states 99.9% paraffin, so I will make some more tests today with the wet gate.

    Cheers

    Another update. The wet gate works great! I used about 40% paraffin and naphtha and then loaded up the little box holding the foam block and shammy pieces and kept it shiny wet through the capture....absolutely amazing results. Thank you Fred! cheers

    And one more PS

    Gilles et Roland, my only complaint now is about the Film9 window staying on top of everything else. Could you make it so it could be minimized please and thank you. I am trying to capture while processing and I can't see the bottom 1/4 of the screen.
    Last edited by Kilohertz; 10th Mar 2019 at 11:00.
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    Gilles et Roland, my only complaint now is about the Film9 window staying on top of everything else. Could you make it so it could be minimized please and thank you. I am trying to capture while processing and I can't see the bottom 1/4 of the screen.
    This is a request that has already been made to us.
    It is unfortunately not so simple that for an application working only for itself.
    But in the section "Tell me what you need, I'll tell you how to do without", first I scan all my movies and then I make Film9 work when I no longer use the computer with the function "shutdown "activated.
    Last edited by Gelinox; 12th Mar 2019 at 01:00.
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    Hello,

    A new version 3.0 of FILM9 is available.

    These include support for Clips-Images (TIF, BMP, JPEG, PNG).
    Notable improvement of AutoGain and AutoWhite.
    And other changes listed here.

    Thank you for reading the documentation for details.
    But we remain at your disposal for any questions.

    We wish you good transfers.
    Roland and Gilles

    Film9

    Version 3.0 - 27/03/2019
    - Accept image files in .tif, .jpg, .bmp, .png format
    - New design of the framing module.
    - Implementation of new settings significantly improving the AutoGain and AutoWhite functions.
    - Ability to minimize the application during the export of clips.
    - Improved the presentation of the Clips / Actions grid during export.
    - Update of VirtualDub2.
    - Fixed a bug closing the application at the start of processing a clip.
    - Optimization of the code.
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  17. Originally Posted by GillesH View Post
    - Ability to minimize the application during the export of clips.
    Thank you very much - my wife will be pleased...

    Looking forward to try out the refinded autowhite / autogain. Is this similar to Gammac by videofred?
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  18. GillesH,

    Do you know if there is an English version for the latest Film9 documentation https://www.film9.org/film9/Film9_fr.pdf Did not find it on the Film9 website https://contact41766.wixsite.com/film9

    Thanks

    Ken
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    Ken,
    Yes, this documentation is available.
    On the FILM9 site, go to the home page in English (EN), then click on Film9.pdf.
    You will also find this documentation on the application on "Help" button.
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    mcconnor,
    As you know, Film9 uses filters developed by Doom9 super-researchers.
    Thanks to them.
    And GamMac is one of them. It is associated with other filters.
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  21. GillesH,

    Thanks for your help!

    I must have been Not fully awake when I went to the FILM9 website today because missed the Eng button in the upper right of the screen. When changed to English everything was fine.

    Ken
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  22. First Tests yesterday - here my comments on v3.0:

    AutoWhite in fact works very decent now

    AutoGain is also quite good now but in dark scenes it tends to crank up overall brightness very much so that the darks are of a distracting light grey afterwards
    As there is no way to seperatly adjust darks - midtones - lights there seems to be no remedy for this. As it is I can only use this per scene but not per movie at the moment

    While playing with the Base Color tab in an attempt to compensate for the above issue I got an "out of memory" Error - never had this with previous versions...

    The redesigned Framing Dialogue (the one that is used to temporarily cut of the black borders for processing) seems now completely unintuitive - perhaps thats due to translation problems. I couldnt figure out when the black borders are cut of and when not. There is no clear indication as to when this option is enabled and the preview didn't help me with this. In previous versions if enabled the black bars around the image would vanish and input and output image would appear directly next to each other. I couldnt achieve this anymore! There is an option "add black bars" which is not really clear to me.... I would advise to review this menue. If translation help is needed I volunteer to help (english/german)

    Many thanks for your great efforts and greetings!
    Last edited by mcconnor; 10th Apr 2019 at 02:14.
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    Hello mcconnor,
    AutoGain: If auto-tuning is not enough, you can adjust with the other settings available in the Colors Base window, as you have tried.
    This being so, it is true that each scene may require different settings.

    Concerning the "insufficient memory" bug, what are the datas of your clip (dimensions, in particular) ?

    You have to get used to the new edge cleaning system.
    This system is used for any type of clip and whatever the framing option chosen in Projects.
    When you open the Final Framing window and there are dirty edges, just start adjusting one of the sliders.
    Depending on the size of these dirty edges and the final dimensions you have chosen, gray edges may appear during these adjustments.
    These gray (temporary) edges allow to have a better judgment on your setting and you can chain the settings of the other edges.
    It is easier to adjust with this temporary gray background rather than with the original black background which does not allow to see where the setting is.
    These gray edges are only used for the width because it is often in the case of 16/9 captures that must be cleaned.
    Height adjustments are often easier to perceive.
    If no other adjustments are made within 3 seconds, these gray edges disappear automatically and you have a preview of your Final Framing.
    Then you can resume the edge settings, if necessary.
    When you exit the Final Frame window, return to the VirtualDub dual screen, as before, with only the image without the reconstructed edges.
    This is to better adjust the other settings.

    There is no option "Add Black Bars". Clean black edges are simply restored if you have chosen, for example, a final dimension in 16/9.
    In this case, your original 4/3 clip will require black edges for a final 16/9 size. But it's automatic.

    Sorry for our translations. But we are open to any proposal to better adjust the documentation.
    Greetings
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    I would just like to add a little drawing that describes the working principle of the framing.
    Image Attached Thumbnails Cadrage.pdf  

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  25. My Input Video is 1080x1088 px - used the older versions of film9 without an out of memory error on the same video...
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    I tested with a clip of equivalent size (1080x1088) and everything is normal.
    There is definitely another parameter that causes this bug.
    To analyze, it would take an example of this clip in download (20 seconds max).
    And indicate what are your choices in FILM9 Projects.
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  27. Ok, here we go - first my apologies: Resolution is 1920x1080 (remembered wrong). But nonetheless. As soon as I play around with the option for some time (enable, disable here and there, alter the values) there is the "Out of memory" message from Virtualdub2 (!), I even once got some message about a decompressor that could not be opened. As soon as I close the Virtualdub Window I can reenable it by clicking on a clip and then It will work again for some time...

    Here is the file: https://www.dropbox.com/s/opk6w2s2n36aa3u/Test.mov?dl=0
    It is 100MB (19 secs) - if that is too much I try to cut out something smaller. It also gives some nice overview on the hefty challenges to overcome to get a nice result...

    As to Settings: Frame: right and left cut off 41, Color Base: Autowhite,no other changes, Sharpen with Fineness-Singe Action, Degrain: Single Action 60, Cleaning: Single Pass (first option), no interpolation, Stabilisation 4

    There is a 4GB Patch which will enable 32Bit Applications to use more memory - I normally used that on my regular VirtualDub2 - I suppose the version embedded is not tweaked that way?

    An observation: The Sharpen-Fineness Section will smooth the image pretty much (to a point where I even considered to skip the degraining...) is that normal?

    Minimizing works great...

    Edit: This morning I realized that my overnight-Film9-Job did not succed: There was a crash report from Virtualdub2 on the screen. Film9 shows both clips as completed but they are unplayble files with only some MB size (expected them to be around 140 GB each...). The export settings have not been different from those I used with Film9 v.2.5. I tried to export to AVI-Lagarith. Right now I am running the Job with export to MP4-H264(40 Mbit) to cross check...
    Last edited by mcconnor; 11th Apr 2019 at 01:14. Reason: New findings
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    Hello mcconnor,

    No return on the framing Dialog ... it's ok?

    Thank you for your clip.
    Gilles and I have done many tests on your file without being able to reproduce your problem, at any time.
    For us, the problem is rather the configuration of the computer.
    It is important to use Film9 without any other video application open at the same time.
    Do not change the memory allocated in VirtualDub.
    My last intensive test lasted 20min, I filmed it and if you wish, I can send it to you.
    I think it's the same for crashes when compiling.

    There is a 4GB Patch which will enable 32Bit Applications to use more memory - I normally used that on my regular VirtualDub2 - I suppose the version embedded is not tweaked that way?
    We use this patched version for a long time already !

    Regarding your clip, it has double images, the Film9 filter will not be able to remove dust when images are the same.
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  29. Thanks for whacking at this - Framing works (Altough the purpose of the option at the bottom of the dialogue are still not completely clear (like add black borders) - in your decription (JPG Picture) you had them greyed out. Are they still functional?

    Will test further concerning the crashes - but as far as I know nothing has changed short of the Film9 Update to v3

    As for the double images in the clip: I have suspected something because normally Super8 should be 18 fps and the file from the scan service indicates 24 fps.

    Film9 does not have by any means the capability to detect and remove those frames (perhaps filling them with interpolated frames)? A quick search revealed something like MorphDups (https://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=164372) but I suspect this could be beyond my capabilities with avisynth... Perhaps this would be some nice feature to add?

    Thanks for investigating this. I will try to get to the bottom of this on my end... As for translations - I would need the corresponding fr/eng-Strings. We did this before. Greetings.
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  30. Just a short update on the crashes reported by me earlier:

    Meanwhile I could attribute them to the use of the "Fineness" (under the "Sharpen" dialogue). At least in my setup (i7 2700K, 8GB RAM) this option (as well Single Action as also much quicker Extended Action) leads to a crash in Virtualdub2 while processing (Kernelbase Error or something). This also happens if "Fineness" is the only processing option active!

    Any other film9-setting will not crash the computer. As of now the 8GB-RAM-only setup is suspected as culprit. Several attempts with different virtual memory settings have not cured this. Anyone else with 8GB only who can reproduce this?

    Other than that the software works really great!

    On a sidenote: any suggestions on removing some quite distracting grain/pattern in very dark areas only. Panning camera with very dark regions will exhibit a mosquito-net like pattern percieved like an overlay that is not moving correspondingly to the image. I can reduce this effect by applying the degrain filter more agressivly but that will lead in a loss of percieved sharpness in the rest of the image...
    Last edited by mcconnor; 17th Apr 2019 at 03:07.
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