chapterEditor(Chapter-Database Disc2mkv Matroska-Tools[Tags,Menu,Multi-MKV]

[Ennio]

Hi hubble,

Omitting Timebase and entering times as nanoseconds, the file is accepted and muxed with CleverFFMpeg. My mediaplayer though prefers the timebase set to 1/1000 with times in milliseconds. On pc, PotPlayer has no trouble with both.

Maybe something worth to mention, MediaInfo displays added info at the "Menu" section on the mp4 "done" with timebase=1/1000 set. For this I created two testfiles.


Without timebase set

;FFMETADATA1
[CHAPTER]
START=0
END=100000000000
title=Chapter 1
[CHAPTER]
START=100000000000
END=200000000000
title=Chapter 2
[CHAPTER]
START=200000000000
END=1000000000000
title=Chapter 3
[CHAPTER]
START=1000000000000
END=1628418000000
title=Chapter 4

gives in MediaInfo

Menu
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : Timed Text
Codec ID                                 : text
Duration                                 : 27 min 8 s
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2022-06-06 16:28:42 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2022-06-06 16:28:42 UTC
Bit rate mode                            : CBR
Menu For                                 : 1,2
00:00:00.000                             : Chapter 1
00:01:40.000                             : Chapter 2
00:03:20.000                             : Chapter 3
00:16:40.000                             : Chapter 4
Bit rate mode                            : Constant

With timebase=1/1000 set

;FFMETADATA1
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=0
END=100000
title=Chapter 1
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=100000
END=2000000
title=Chapter 2
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=200000
END=1000000
title=Chapter 3
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=1000000
END=1628418
title=Chapter 4

gives in MediaInfo

Menu
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : Timed Text
Codec ID                                 : text
Duration                                 : 33 min 20 s
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2022-06-06 16:28:42 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2022-06-06 16:28:42 UTC
Bit rate mode                            : CBR
Menu For                                 : 1,2
Source duration                          : 1628418
Source frame count                       : 4
Source stream size                       : 92
Stream size                              : 92
mdhd_Duration                            : 2000000
00:00:00.000                             : Chapter 1
00:01:40.000                             : Chapter 2
00:03:20.000                             : Chapter 3
00:16:40.000                             : Chapter 4
Bit rate mode                            : Constant

Maybe reason my player prefers the timebase=1/1000 set and go for that? I can imagine other mediaplayers acting differently though. Thinking out loud, maybe you can add a user option to not set/do set (any) timebase that's supported by ffmpeg?

[hubblec4]

OK. An option to set the TIMEBASE with a valid value should be fine. I like options

Do you know which values are valid for ffmpeg?

[Ennio]

OK. An option to set the TIMEBASE with a valid value should be fine. I like options

Do you know which values are valid for ffmpeg?

Again, I wish I could tell, sorry. Maybe ProWo knows. At his thread, I did give him a headsup that I am talking to you about this.

[hubblec4]

OK. In the specs (from the link) there is no restriction, a value of 12/3456 is/should be also valid.

[Ennio]

In the specs (from the link) there is no restriction, a value of 12/3456 is/should be also valid.

You almost got me going there with the 12/3456 value


Maybe this tells something? I created the mp4 using the chapters format without the timebase argument

;FFMETADATA1
[CHAPTER]
START=0
END=100000000000
title=Chapter 1
[CHAPTER]
START=100000000000
END=200000000000
title=Chapter 2
[CHAPTER]
START=200000000000
END=1000000000000
title=Chapter 3
[CHAPTER]
START=1000000000000
END=1628418000000
title=Chapter 4

Ok. Muxing to mp4 goes fine. From that mp4, I extracted the chapter-file again. This is what it reads:

;FFMETADATA1
major_brand=isom
minor_version=512
compatible_brands=isomiso2avc1mp41
title=Banshee
encoder=Lavf60.16.100
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=0
END=100000
title=Chapter 1
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=100000
END=200000
title=Chapter 2
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=200000
END=1000000
title=Chapter 3
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=1000000
END=1628418
title=Chapter 4

First off, I don't know why in the last CODE-box all items seem to be "returned". In the extracted text-file all seems to be written on one line, without being "entered".
Anyways, note the TIMEBASE argument being "re-introduced" with the proper seconds values. I'm not sure what to think of this; note I used the GUI to extract. Just letting you know.

[Ennio]

hubble, at the Doom 9 forums, -QfG- recently put up a link which target concerns adding chapters with ffmpeg.

https://ikyle.me/blog/2020/add-mp4-chapters-ffmpeg

Reading it, here too TIMEBASE=1/1000 is used. I also noticed the difference=1 between every END and successive START. And the empty lines preceding each chapter entry.
It does more or less confirm using TIMESTAMP=1/1000 to be common.

Maybe you want to particularly check out the mentioned "Helper script".

[hubblec4]

Thanks for the link, any information helps.

I still find the END times a bit confusing.
Because it is not clear whether the times have to be in a row without gaps or whether there can be gaps between the end and start times (next chapter).

For Matroska it doesn't matter what value the timestamps have, since such ordered chapters determine the playback order and the player has to stick to the chapter times.

Reading in such chapters already works in cE, and I'm in the process of finishing coding the output in the converter (but it's a little more than expected, because of these end times).

The converter isn't really equipped to work with end times and I'm not sure how to install that yet.

For easy handling you would only need the START time. The END time could be calculated and only the last END timestamp would have to be available as an input option.

[Ennio]

I still find the END times a bit confusing.
Because it is not clear whether the times have to be in a row without gaps or whether there can be gaps between the end and start times (next chapter).

Let me help by testing this on both with and without the gaps. Will get back and report.

A few minutes ago I edited my previous post #126. Did you read about the helper script?

[hubblec4]

Yes I read this and I'm sure the a END must be the same value liek the START time of the prev chapter.
In Matroska is the END time exclusive. A Player play until the END time is reached.

[Ennio]

Yes I read this and I'm sure the a END must be the same value liek the START time of the prev chapter.

Surely you mean this the other way around.

In Matroska is the END time exclusive. A Player play until the END time is reached.

Then I can imagine standalone mediaplayers, running on poorly written firmware, expecting this also for mp4. Can't vouch for it, but I don't expect ffmpeg being able to mux chapters-metadata files with "END=..." only at the last chapter.

[hubblec4]

Yes I read this and I'm sure the a END must be the same value liek the START time of the prev chapter.

Surely you mean this the other way around.

Ups, yes you are right.

In Matroska is the END time exclusive. A Player play until the END time is reached.

Then I can imagine standalone mediaplayers, running on poorly written firmware, expecting this also for mp4. Can't vouch for it, but I don't expect ffmpeg being able to mux chapters-metadata files with "END=..." only at the last chapter.

I didn't express myself correctly.

There will of course be END times for all chapters. All end times are known except for the last end timestamp.

[hubblec4]

Can you make a test please?

Use for the first chapter START=0, END=1000 (TIMEBASE=1/10000) and for a second START=2000, END=3000

What is the play duration of such file?

Matroska(an MKV) would play now only 2 seconds of a video.

[Ennio]

Will do, also I'll try with and without the bespoken "gaps". Will report back, gimme some time.

[EDIT]

Matroska(an MKV) would play now only 2 seconds of a video.

i also want to test this, but I don't know how the data in xml would look like. As I'm importing xml into MKVToolNix for muxing, could you please provide with a sample?

[Ennio]

I've done your required test, both with and without the "gaps".
Where I did the gaps, FYI the syntax I used is:

;FFMETADATA1

[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=0
END=1000
title=Chapter 1

[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=2000
END=3000
title=Chapter 2

Where no gaps were used, the syntax reads:

;FFMETADATA1[CHAPTER]TIMEBASE=1/1000START=0END=1000title=Chapter 1[CHAPTER]TIMEBASE=1/1000START=2000END=3000
title=Chapter 2

For both mp4 videos, both PotPlayer (on pc) and my mediaplayer continue playback after the last chapter.

Still, please provide me with a xml-text example where "END" is used. I do want to see whether mkv-playback will end after the END time.

[Ennio]

BTW, having a look with MediaInfo on the two videos, there is difference between infos at the "Menu" section.

Where the syntax was written with the gaps, the info is:

Menu
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : Timed Text
Codec ID                                 : text
Duration                                 : 3 s 0 ms
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2024-01-28 14:55:36 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-01-28 14:55:36 UTC
Bit rate mode                            : CBR
Menu For                                 : 1,2
Duration_FirstFrame                      : 1000
00:00:00.000                             : Chapter 1
00:00:02.000                             : Chapter 2
Bit rate mode                            : Constant

Where syntax was written with no gaps, the info is:

Menu
ID                                       : 3
Format                                   : Timed Text
Codec ID                                 : text
Duration                                 : 1 s 0 ms
Language                                 : English
Encoded date                             : 2024-01-28 14:55:36 UTC
Tagged date                              : 2024-01-28 14:55:36 UTC
Menu For                                 : 1,2
Source duration                          : 3000
Source frame count                       : 1
Source stream size                       : 23
Stream size                              : 0
mdhd_Duration                            : 1000
00:00:00.000                             : Chapter 2

[hubblec4]

Hi Ennio

In the attachments there is the 2-ordered-chapter.xml. You can add this chapter to any MKV and it will be play only 2 seconds.
(The Player must handle ordered chapters, if not the entire file is played with two chapter marks)

mp4 is a container which don't support ordered chapters, but FFmpeg can mux to MKV directly and maybe is then the END time used.?
Could you test this please?

MediaInfo is a very great tool, but I would not fully trust the chapter section.

[Ennio]

Will test and report back. Do allow me some time.

[hubblec4]

Take all the time you need. Maybe I have in night a test version for you.
cE will initially generate the end times automatically and only the start times are important. Existing end times should and will also be taken into account.

[hubblec4]

Hi Ennio

Here is a test version of cE for you.

[Ennio]

A quick thanks, hubble. Will be back with with test reports.

[Ennio]

mp4 is a container which don't support ordered chapters

Ah, I plainly didn't know, thanks.

but FFmpeg can mux to MKV directly and maybe is then the END time used.?
Could you test this please?

Tests with ffmpeg muxing to mkv, using the ordered textfiles (as in my post #121, please correct me if I misunderstood):

Written "with gaps" and "without gaps", playback of both mkvs continues on pc PotPlayer, pc MPV player and my mediaplayer.

=====

Tests with your attached "2ordered-chapters.xml" --> imported in MKVToolNix and muxed to mkv:

PC PotPlayer and my mediaplayer continue playback, but on pc MPV player indeed stops after 1 second.

Maybe already safe to say my mediaplayer doesn't support ordered chapters.

=====

Reading back on this:

I didn't express myself correctly.

There will of course be END times for all chapters. All end times are known except for the last end timestamp.

I'm confused here, probably because I don't have enough knowledge about the usage of "ordered chapters".
Why would the last end timestamp be unknown? I mean, for starters, can't a user set a desired one? And, if it would be the last chapter that ends at the very end of the video, could it be so hard to just "read & copy" video's runtime and "paste/set" that last end timestamp?

I'll be back with my findings on provided "test cE".

Again, please don't hesitate to point me if I've misinterpreted anything and you need some other testings.

[Ennio]

Why would the last end timestamp be unknown? I mean, for starters, can't a user set a desired one? And, if it would be the last chapter that ends at the very end of the video, could it be so hard to just "read & copy" video's runtime and "paste/set" that last end timestamp

Never mind, my warped mind is not full throttle today; I think things are becoming more clear because of my first test with the testversion of cE.

Test with Converter: import XML, ouput to "FFmpeg MetaData (txt)"

source xml:

<?xml version="1.0" encoding="UTF-8"?>
<!-- <!DOCTYPE Chapters SYSTEM "matroskachapters.dtd"> -->
<Chapters>
  <EditionEntry>
    <EditionUID>81380214092263253</EditionUID>
    <EditionFlagHidden>0</EditionFlagHidden>
    <EditionFlagDefault>0</EditionFlagDefault>
    <ChapterAtom>
      <ChapterUID>26017142771098923</ChapterUID>
      <ChapterTimeStart>00:00:00.000000000</ChapterTimeStart>
      <ChapterFlagHidden>0</ChapterFlagHidden>
      <ChapterFlagEnabled>1</ChapterFlagEnabled>
    </ChapterAtom>
    <ChapterAtom>
      <ChapterUID>7478758528289142</ChapterUID>
      <ChapterTimeStart>00:06:48.950000000</ChapterTimeStart>
      <ChapterFlagHidden>0</ChapterFlagHidden>
      <ChapterFlagEnabled>1</ChapterFlagEnabled>
    </ChapterAtom>
    <ChapterAtom>
      <ChapterUID>80483442088</ChapterUID>
      <ChapterTimeStart>00:15:08.157000000</ChapterTimeStart>
      <ChapterFlagHidden>0</ChapterFlagHidden>
      <ChapterFlagEnabled>1</ChapterFlagEnabled>
    </ChapterAtom>
    <ChapterAtom>
      <ChapterUID>2820206076687</ChapterUID>
      <ChapterTimeStart>00:23:13.809000000</ChapterTimeStart>
      <ChapterFlagHidden>0</ChapterFlagHidden>
      <ChapterFlagEnabled>1</ChapterFlagEnabled>
    </ChapterAtom>
  </EditionEntry>
</Chapters>

cE ffmpeg output.txt:

;FFMETADATA1
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=0
END=408950
title=
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=408950
END=908157
title=
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=908157
END=1393809
title=
[CHAPTER]
TIMEBASE=1/1000
START=1393809
END=1393809
title=

I now understand why the last end time can't be set; it's not there in XML of course!

So I assume this value can be set when the Converter would be fed a mkv as source.
It doesn't; I've tried. Where from the hip, I'm guessing cE would only read the chapter-information part of the mkv and not it's video duration. If I'm right with this, can cE (parsing?) be modified so it can establish and use the videoduration?

[hubblec4]

Hi Ennio

Yes it looks like your player don't support ordered chapters. mpv, VLC and MPC are the ones which have this support long time ago.

Last end time stamp:
When you feed cE with a chapter format which don't use a duration of the entire file, there is no way to know what the last end timestamp is.
Scanning a media file to get the highest timestamp is easy, but you have to use external programs. (cE is not MediaInfo)

All other END time stamps are simple the next start timestamp.

In cE in the Multi-MKV editor there is only an Edit field where the user can enter a last END timestamp. Such a field, I could add it to the Converter.

[hubblec4]

Yes, cE can read from some formats the duration, like MKV's and other chapter formats.

I have to implement this for this new format, so that the Converter has this info.

[Ennio]

Yes, cE can read from some formats the duration, like MKV's and other chapter formats.

I have to implement this for this new format, so that the Converter has this info.

That would be great. Reading it, do I understand correctly that ffmpeg's format is the new & only one that would use end time - also for the last chapter, that is?

Another thing, in test cE I noticed when deleting or adjusting the default 1/1000 value in the "Time base" window, the listed timecodes are dynamically altered. Which is good and up till now I think 1/1000 should be default. I can however imagine (future-)users desiring another value, and go clicking on the drop-down arrow to select another one from an expected list. Which is currently empty. Does this need reconsideration?

[hubblec4]

Yes, cE can read from some formats the duration, like MKV's and other chapter formats.

I have to implement this for this new format, so that the Converter has this info.

That would be great. Reading it, do I understand correctly that ffmpeg's format is the new & only one that would use end time - also for the last chapter, that is?

No there are some other formats which support an END time. Matroska of course, GraseVallyEdius V2 + V3 (with using a chapter duration) and some more. But only Matroska seems to use this value in a meaningful way (my opinion).

It's not a problem for Matroska if the timestamps are distributed all over the place.
So a chapter with start = 1h - end = 2h can be before a chapter with start = 0h - end = 1h.
But that will definitely cause problems in FFmpeg MetaData format (I suspect).

Another thing, in test cE I noticed when deleting or adjusting the default 1/1000 value in the "Time base" window, the listed timecodes are dynamically altered. Which is good and up till now I think 1/1000 should be default.

Yes, in cE all values are altered dynamically, and the value "1/1000" is currently the default value in cE.

I can however imagine (future-)users desiring another value, and go clicking on the drop-down arrow to select another one from an expected list. Which is currently empty. Does this need reconsideration?

The drop-down list in the Combobox is not empty, there is only value "1/1000". (delete the Combobox text and open the drop-down list).
For the moment is this the only one predefined value, but I can add more predefined values to this list if needed.

[hubblec4]

Hi Ennio

Here a new test version with END time support.

[Ennio]

Thank you, will test and report back.

[Ennio]

Hi hubble,

A few test already show XML to ffmpeg-format.txt and vice versa working well; both exports are muxed properly.
Remuxing these results back to other container also goes flawlessly. Happy camping here
In case something comes up and you want me to test anything else, don't hesitate.

Thanks for your work !

[Ennio]

I don't know where my brain is lately. I realize I totally forgot testing with sources where duration can be retrieved. Which second cE testversion was about in the first place

Making amends, I ran some tests today. Where I didn't test usage of duration in "Matroska" as XML will only use start times.

In "Converter", importing mkv (and mp4 to be sure) and export to ffmpeg, the videodurations show properly set as last chapter's end time. Importing in - and muxing with CleverFFmpegGUI into both mkv and mp4 goes well. Remuxing results back to "first" container also works. Nice!

I also tried importing mkv, mp4 but also ffmpeg-format into Converter for editing. Do I understand correctly that - for ffmpeg export - the listed time codes can't be edited? Converter's "editing" button does not seem to offer the same options it does provide in "Matroska" mode. There, start times can be adjusted. Maybe I'm overlooking something here.

I noticed the testversion forgetting (some) settings. After succesful mp4 import sessions earlier - I was thrown an error because the path to MKVToolNix wasn't remembered anymore.
Maybe it's related to having both the testversion and latest non-test.