blu ray encoding , bluray player non compatible !

[luc13137]

Hi
I am using movie magix with all it's flaws, when it come's time to put everything on a bluray,
the software gives me problem , you can do it in mpeg 2 hd bluray, or you can do it in x264.
I try both different settings sometimes the software crashes, i try everything. At the end of it
all i burn the blu ray, it plays in some blu ray player, doesn't play on some others.
I am passing for an idiot , i give the disc to friend they arrive home and it doesn't play on their bluray player.
I understand sometimes dvd do not play every where and that is because on the -r or +r thing
but blurays ?
.
why why why ? what setting can i use for the disc to play everywhere(in Canada).
Montreal Canada

[Baldrick]

Some blu-ray players just doesn't support all BD-R media brands. Avoid very cheap media. They are not the same as commercial blu-ray discs.

Are you making standard blu-ray? It should look like https://www.videohelp.com/hd#filestruct
Are you burning with magix also?

You can also put blu-ray video on dvdr media. But still same problem with some players....

Maybe easier to put mp4,mkv,avi videos on a usb stick. Several blu-ray players support that and easy playback on computers.

[luc13137]

I try mt2s on blu ray, i tried other things, now i have at home 3 different kind of blu ray players
samsung,old sony , new phillips, next time i am going to try my disc on all to see if they play everywhere.

i read somewhere it is because of the updates are not made on the players,
it did help on 1 player, just the menu didn't work put when you push play , it was working.
so it's not the updates,(everybody said "ah we didn't know we had to update our player")

you said (Some blu-ray players just doesn't support BD-R media)
br-r is there some + and - in bluray disc to ?
so i should use the + ones ?

and yes i burn with magix, i am thinking next time to use magix to edit , convert everything in uncompressed video 1 min = 1g(best way to keep quality)
and then find another software for the menu and burning step. ( not encore please do not tell me to use encore)

[jman98]

Some blu-ray players just doesn't support BD-R media.

I am very skeptical about this as the reason for the problem. I think the following are much more likely:
1) luc13137 used BD-R LTH discs as we know that some players don't support those.
2) He used low quality BD-R discs and that's the real problem.
3) Movie magix produced output that's not compatible with the BluRay standard and the players object to that.

[jman98]

+ discs don't exist for BluRay.

I've never heard of a BluRay player that wouldn't play any BD-R discs, so again, I remain skeptical that this is the reason. Samsung, Sony and Philips should all support BD-R, but do you actually have BD-R LTH? Maybe you better tell us what brand you used and whether it's LTH or not. And I sure wouldn't trust Movie Magix for burning. ImgBurn is free and much better.

[LMotlow]

Don't use cheap BD discs.
I'd avoid Movie Magix. And, what are your original video sources? Would they have BluRay compatible structure to begin with?
The specs for formatting and encoding BluRay/AVCHD with MPEG or h264 are here: http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533 . Some players will accept BD-R's that don't comply with these specs, many will not.

Try getting some info on your source videos or your BD output with MediaInfo and post it here. If we don't know anything about your video structure, all anyone can do is guess.

[Baldrick]

Some blu-ray players just doesn't support BD-R media.

I am very skeptical about this as the reason for the problem. I think the following are much more likely:
1) luc13137 used BD-R LTH discs as we know that some players don't support those.
2) He used low quality BD-R discs and that's the real problem.
3) Movie magix produced output that's not compatible with the BluRay standard and the players object to that.

Okey. Edited the reply.

I would try another blu-ray converter. Maybe tmpgenc authoring works. Or try some free solutions like bdtoavchd, multiavchd, avchdcoder.

[luc13137]

the video source is my hd camera , the best cheap sanyo hd 1080p ever made , mp4 1080p , when i started to do blu ray disc , i had no problem
magix was working fine, then or their next magix versions, people ( my friends) started to complain, it doesn't work at his place,
and it is true about some players not playing some disc, check on the internet a lot of peoples are complaining.
myself i was thinking to problem is magix encoder, but in case you do not know ,their encoder is mainconcept and they are good.
my disc are philips bd-r 25 gb, what is LTH, yes they are cheap I AM NOT RICH about $30 canadian dollars for 25 disk
i could edit my movie with magix and use another software to make the menus and burn,i going to try the 3 free software you suggested

please what is LTH

[LMotlow]

the video source is my hd camera , the best cheap sanyo hd 1080p ever made , mp4 1080p

Sanyo made a lot of cheap cameras. You don't say which one you have, so there's not much we can offer concerning the camera. In any case, if you bother to look over the links explaining BluRay formats, you'd see that 1080p is not valid for BluRay except for progressive video at film speed (23.976fps or 24fps).

please what is LTH

Google will offer hundreds of web links. Here is a quote from one of them, about halfway down the page at http://blog.digistor.com/not-all-blu-ray-discs-are-created-equal-but-does-bd-r-quality-matter/:

LTH media is an organic dye-pigment disc that found its way into the market to offer a lower cost alternative disc in Blu-ray’s infant years. LTH refers to changing the organic dye from low reflectivity to high reflectivity. Unfortunately, since this was introduced after Blu-ray entered the market, the compatibility of these types of discs are lower, requiring hardware manufacturers to create special firmware to recognize such discs.

The manufacturing process to create LTH discs is the same as older CD’s, and DVD’s manufactured on converted CD-R and DVD-R production lines, using organic dye and a spin-coating process. Initially, this brought a lower cost disc to market. However, over time problems using organic dye-pigment for long term data storage became apparent. The organic dye has a high sensitivity to light, and lower compatibility in the market, resulting in shorter lifespan of your data on the disc, and possible issues burning or reading the data on these discs.

Sometimes you don't really get what you pay for. But most of the time, you do.

[luc13137]

sanyo hd 2000

i am only trying to burn in p as in progressive because hd should not be in interlace if you want a good image , but in 29.97 fps, it use to work before ,
the software is trying to but it in 24 fps , but the image is jerky when it is 24 fps, so if you are telling me the reason it doesn't work is my frame rate !

where can i find bluray disc that are not LTH , and what letters or sign or logo should i look for, am i going to pay $20 a disc !

[_Al_]

but if you want to be sure everybody plays your BD safely in their BD player, you have to create compatible Blu-Ray structured BD disc and that is 1920x1080 29.97i, interlaced has t o be made out of your 59.94fps progressive, understand you have to make 29.970 i just to be sure (setting it properly in your software, hopefully, it can do it,) and compile correct Blu-Ray structure, with BDMV directory containing other directories like PLAYLIST, STREAM etc.

picture should not be jerky if there is right software to do it, 29.97i and 59.94p have the same fluid motion, 24fps is wrong, you do not mention what software actually, so nobody can tell you how to fix it, check your software settings

not sure what is your problem, better to explain specifically, if I did exactly this and this, exact software exports and terms and possible problems, or if I did exactly this and this I got (or others) problem, but as I mentioned, just putting 59.97 progressive on BD might not be guaranteed for others to work ...

there might be quality of your disc still in question, as others who burn a lot perhaps would know, not sure ...

[jman98]

$20 a disc, even Canadian dollars, is absolutely insane for a BD-R disc. Buy online.
http://www.rima.com
http://www.supermediastore.com
probably ship to Canada. I'd advise using Verbatim brand discs.

I'm wondering if you are actually making an AVCHD disc without realizing it if your source is a camcorder. AVCHD support on BluRay players is iffy (some support it, some don't) and you may possibly be making an AVCHD 2.0 disc, which is even more likely to have problems, if you are using 1080p 29.97 fps video.

[luc13137]

i am using movie magix edit pro 2012 and 2014, and i follow the default settings , i just change to speed to 29.97 p.
everybody out there should know that bluray player plays disc in progressive settings (in usa and canada), cable tv broadcast in interlace (in USA and Canada)
when you buy an hdtv it is progressive picture( unless it is the first model that came out), and the best quality for a hdtv is in progressive only, all of my bluray players are progressive, tonight then i am going to try 24p in my 3 bluray players to check things out,
it is so funny I ask question and I am arguing your answers, a lot of people do not know anything about I or P.
just look on the internet, i have to buy disc that are rated for data because they should be htl.

[LMotlow]

i am only trying to burn in p as in progressive because hd should not be in interlace if you want a good image

I dont know where you get that information, but it isn't true and depends on the playback environment and hardware. Even if what you contend is true, the fact is that BluRay has specific format and encoding requirements that hardware designers take into account when making their players. You can re-design the standards if you like, and maybe on a PC it will play like butter, but the hardware folks won't cooperate.

but in 29.97 fps, it use to work before ,
the software is trying to but it in 24 fps , but the image is jerky when it is 24 fps, so if you are telling me the reason it doesn't work is my frame rate !

If you are shooting 24fps progressive, that would be OK for BluRay. If you're shooting 29.97 fps progressive, it won't play correctly in standard players, and if Magix is screwing up the frame rate you're in trouble. Few members here would recommend Magix anyway, and I doubt anyone knows what Magix is doing to your source videos. If the source is progressive 29.97fps, Magix might be trying to make them 24fps-compliant. If you're shooting 24p and changing it to 29.97p on purpose, you're screwing it up yourself. I see, too, that your Sanyo shoots 1920x1080 in more than one way -- how are you shooting those videos? You're not giving us enough information.

where can i find bluray disc that are not LTH , and what letters or sign or logo should i look for, am i going to pay $20 a disc !

I wouldn't pay $20 for a BD-R, either. You're being ripped off. If the label or the spec says "LTH", don't buy it. Verbatim makes pretty decent HTL (non-LTH) BD-R's that have a good reputation. They're not $20 each: http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-Blu-ray-Recordable-10-Disc-97238/dp/B003EE08S8.

in case you do not know ,their encoder is mainconcept and they are good.

I realize you have this ongoing thing with Magix. But you have a stripped-down consumer version of MainConcept. The real encoder costs a lot more than you'll get with $50 software. Magix likely paid a lower licensing fee for a lesser version. Sony Vegas Pro uses MainConcept, too, but it's closer to the real thing and will cost plenty more if you want the real mccoy. Another good and well regarded pro level h264 encoder is x264, which is open source and available in many BD apps, both paid and free. You probably don't realize it, but many commercial BluRays are encoded with HD versions of MPEG.

[luc13137]

i look at your amazon link
when you look at the verbatim box, where i can see htl or lth, where can i see a differrence.

[LMotlow]

Neither the specs nor the label say anything about "LTH". Here's an LTH label: http://www.amazon.com/Verbatim-96569-Single-Layer-Discontinued-Manufacturer/dp/B002AEU...s=verbatim+LTH.

[luc13137]

as for using Magix,
when i started editing my movies in year 2000 , i was using premiere , but when they change the way their way of doing effects i change software
and magix was similar to the old premiere. I do 1 movie per year for my friends and my last movie was in april 2014 , so please do not ask what settings i was using ,i must have tried 100 different settings and even played with the gop structure, now i am preparing long time in advanced because i do not want to have the same problems
as last year, i am going to start my next movie in middle of march.

for the disc the difference on the box is the word "hard" i think

[_Al_]

Bottom line, you want to create Blu-ray that is compatible with everyone's player is to make 1980x1080, 29.97i, Blu-Ray structure, , there is nothing you can do about it

making 24p out of your 59.96p, you ruin the whole thing, you butcher your video beyond recognition , you have to go with 29.97i (proper BD authoring software) or 59.96p just burning some m2ts to disc, or using multiavchad, tsMuxer etc. (with possible playback problem), you are completely disregarding here that you shot your video in 60p with much shorter shutter speeds, you cannot just take away more that half of the frames expecting your video is going to be fine

just give your friends thumbdrive with your 59.97p, if they complain, tell them that Blu-Ray has no 100% 59.97 compatibility to play your BD if you deliver some 59.97 m2ts on disc, any regular (any good) BD authoring would not allow to author 59.96p video anyway

[_Al_]

Correct frame rates are 59.94p (60000/1001).
So 59.96p or 59.97p I typed above, those are not correct, sorry.

[luc13137]

I was filming in 1080p 30fps, but 60fps is available on my camera, and movie magix i think is offering 1080 60 fps
i am not at home at this moment , i will check tonight.

[LMotlow]

Well....how Premiere Elements or Magix has changed its way of operating are up for debate. I don't use them, although I tried Elements some time back but ended up elsewhere. Regardless, _Al_ is correct. 1920x1080 at 59.94fps progressive or 30fps progressive are not BluRay compatible. It could be interlaced to 29.97, but that's really a tricky process. It could be encoded as-is to mp4 or mkv, but many players won't tolerate it. Another way to do it: 1080p @30fps can be "fake interlaced" -- that is, you tell an h264 or HD-MPEG encoder to encode it as interlaced. Works with my encoders, but I don't know if Magix will let you do it. Someyimes you c an get some odd results that way, though.

[the rest was deleted. Just saw the O.P. post about shooting 1080p]

Magix might let you encode 1080p/60fps, but I don't think you get the point: it's not BluRay compatible. It could be resized to 1280x720p at 60fps, would encode and play properly, and would look OK. Some months ago another member did just that, to save disc space. The 1280p sample has an audio glitch and some brief camera transmission noise, but it was broadcast that way and had to be used as-is. If you want a look, the 1920p -> to 1280p sample is still posted in the old thread and available here: "Qual2Day.mkv", https://forum.videohelp.com/attachments/25942-1403799611/Qual2Day.mkv. It's 54MB, so give it time to download.

[_Al_]

Another way to do it: 1080p @30fps can be "fake interlaced"

I'm not sure, in case of having 60p as original, this is even possible option as well, again it ruins his footage to get 30p out of 60p (for full HD solution, not some web stream). Interlace 30i (or 60i whatever it is marked) encoding is much better choice here because of temporal resolution is not lost if insisting on getting proper BD structure.

But that fake interlace is way to go, if his original is really 30p , maybe you were responding to that ....

[luc13137]

blu ray players are in 1080P it doesn't say if it is 24 or 30 or 60fps but NO interlaced
unless they are lies from the companies, they make blurays for flat hdtv and most of the flat hdtv are P, interlaced is for old tube tv.
dvd are in interlaced.
so now the real question is no longer progressive or interlaced, it is 24p - 30p - 60p which one should i use , i usely film in 1080p 30

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/philips-philips-1080p-dvd-blu-ray-player-bdp210...e75654ba0een02

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-blu-ray-player-bdps1200-bdps1200/1028...910b49215cen02

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/lg-electronics-lg-3d-blu-ray-player-bd660c-bd66...33271f8e71en02

http://www.futureshop.ca/en-CA/product/sony-sony-wi-fi-blu-ray-player-bdps3200-bdps320...c2d39e269fen02

[luc13137]

forgot to say ,look at the specs

[ndjamena]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blu-ray_Disc#media

http://www.x264bluray.com/home/1080i

I'm sure there are better examples around. The BD specs are what's on the disc and have nothing to do with the hardware. The best you can hope for is 1080p 29.97 encoded as fake interlaced.

[luc13137]

even your wikipedia link shows 1080p
in canada and usa it is in progressive , the image is a lot better,and i did notice that movie magix offers in PAL settings only offer interlaced must be because
of frame rate.
but never mind that.
i am going to try tonight 24p ,60 p . and also tmpcenc authoring if i have time.

[ndjamena]

No it doesn't, that's just you deliberately not looking properly.

If you go down to the Media format section, you'll see that 1080p STOPS at 24fps, anything above that HAS TO BE INTERLACED.

The BD player will deinterlace 25i (50i) to 50p and output that 50p to the TV. Those are the limitations set by the Blu Ray specs, no argument you produce on this forum will change that. The next generation of BD may change that, but no current BD player will accept those discs.

[LMotlow]

But that fake interlace is way to go, if his original is really 30p , maybe you were responding to that ....

Yep. I referred to 30p

[Cornucopia]

Just looked at the manual for your camera (Sanyo HD 2000). Here's what I gathered from it regarding the HD recording capability of it and what would need to be done to it to make it Blu-ray ready.

Movies all shot in AVC within MP4 container (no bitrate settings available or listed). So source NOT AVCHD or Blu-ray compliant at all YET.

Size/FPS options:

• [Full-HR] = 1920x1080p60 (actually p59.94 - manual says so) -> will need to downconvert to i59.94, will lose some resolution quality but no temporal loss
  
• [Full-HD] = 1920x1080i60 (actually i59.94 - manual says so) -> can be used as-is (if other req. such as bitrate, GOP are within spec)
  
• [Full-SHQ] = 1920x1080p30 (actually p29.97 - manual says so) -> will need to remux as PsF so it appears as 1920x1080i59.94, but will not lose any quality & will look same as source (assuming all other req. are within spec)
  
• [HD-SHQ] = 1280x720p30 (actually p29.97 - manual says so) -> will need to duplicate frames to upconvert to 1280x720p59.94, will not lose quality & will look same as source (asuming...)

Regardless of which option you choose, you still aren't done yet, as you will need to add those to a proper BD authoring app/module and author, compile & output to proper BDMV (with full folder structure, sector padding, M2TS, MPLS, etc.) Assuming the other items were within Blu-ray spec (no way of knowing yet without MediaInfo verification), the authoring step will NOT further lose quality. If, however, your items had different GOP structure or Level/Profile, etc., your authoring app would either halt or would attempt to re-encode your material into something that IS BD-compliant. This then would add more quality loss.

Once your BD material has been generated, you can burn (hopefully with something as consistently reliable as ImgBurn) on good quality media.

Those are really your only options from which to move forward while retaining most if not all of your source quality.

Scott

[LMotlow]

I looked up the camera specs earlier and saw the same thing Cornucopia posted.. The ideal way for you to shoot for compatible BluRay is the second method Cornucopia listed:

.....
[Full-HD] = 1920x1080i60 (actually i59.94 - manual says so) -> can be used as-is (if other req. such as bitrate, GOP are within spec)

I'm afraid you misunderstand a few things:

blu ray players are in 1080P it doesn't say if it is 24 or 30 or 60fps but NO interlaced
unless they are lies from the companies, they make blurays for flat hdtv and most of the flat hdtv are P, interlaced is for old tube tv.

BluRay players aren't "in 1080p". If they're "in" anything, they're in 1920x1080, 1440x1080, 1280x720, and 720x480/720x576, and even in older formats like 704x480, 352x480, and others. They are programmed to recognize whether those videos are progressive, telecined, or interlaced, and they expect each of those incoming formats to correspond to known and long-established specs. The players are programmed to recognize the structure of incoming video according to data in the video itself. If the video doesn't adhere to the specs for that particular format, the player will either reject the video, or play it incorrectly, or just stare at you. If the player sees interlaced video created according to spec with the correct frame rates, GOP structures, etc., it is programmed to deinterlace that video and output progressive frames. Even DVD players of 10 years ago could do that and were progammed the same way. These players aren't designed to read your mind and play whatever you feed them that isn't prepared according to standard.

You have it wrong about the old CRT's. They didn't play interlaced video as "interlaced". They received the images and displayed one field at a time -- they would paint the even scan lines on the screen, and as that image faded they would paint the odd scan lines of the incoming image. They did not display all of the scan lines at the same time. In that respect, CRT's displayed progressively. PC monitors don't discriminate: if you feed interlaced video to a PC monitor, you'll see both interlaced fields in the same image. Most PC media players will do the same thing a BD player, DVD player, or HDTV does -- they deinterlace the video for display of single fields as full frames, one field at a time.

dvd are in interlaced.

If you look at the BluRay/AVCHD specs for standard definition video formats (and I'm betting you didn't look at the links that were posted earlier), you will see that standard definition BluRay and AVCHD 720x480/NTSC and 720x576/PAL are always interlaced. There are plenty of standard definition BluRay issues on the market to prove it, and many of those can throw out a 16:9 wide screen image. I don't know where you've been reading about video, but try sticking with reputable video tech forums and websites. Videohelp is one of them. So is digitalfaq, AVSforum, Doom9, and AfterDawn, among others.