Adobe Premiere Elements 7 - Rendering an already rendered video

[Viktoren]

Hi, I'm Paolo.

As a new with video editing software, I'd like to ask some questions about Adobe Premiere Elements 7, as it's the program I'm actually using to edit my honeymoon journey in the USA.
I started with Pinnacle, but it's been crashing too often overwriting my project with an empty one, so after losing all my work twice, I decided to move to Premiere Elements 7, as my computer specs can't handle anything more powerful and because (as Pinnacle did) it can detect the scenes in the video I imported from 3 MiniDV cassettes.

As lately I encountered some "Run out of memory" messages, I was thinking of doing a tricky editing:
- edit some 20 minutes of video and render/export as AVI file (in Standard Definition PAL);
- start a new project and edit some other 20 minutes and render/export as above;
- start a new project again for joining the two AVI files I've done and export to a DVD;

Does anyone know if there could be a loss in quality doing the render/export twice?

Thank you.

[LMotlow]

It would help if you could let us know what camera and recording format you used. There are a lot of "video" formats out there. What kind of "AVI" are you going to edit to? There are lots of codecs that use "AVI". AVI is a container, not a format.

[poisondeathray]

@LMotlow - MiniDV will be DV-AVI



@Viktoren
If the edits were only cuts type editing (no transition, no overlays, no effects), you should be able export as DV-AVI without additional compression losses (I'm assuming Elements can do this because Premiere Pro can do this), but I don't know for sure

If you have more than cuts type editing, and export the AVI as a lossless format (e.g. lagarith, huffyuv, ut video codec) there will be no additional compression losses (but huge filesizes for the intermediate AVI, you need lots of HDD space)

[LMotlow]

I didn't notice Mini-DV mentioned, but you're right. If text overlays, transitions, color correction, etc., are being used, the vids will be re-encoded to a lower quality unless they're saved as lossless AVI. Can save storage space and reduce lossless AVI to 1/3 the usual size using Lagarith or other losssless compressors. Elements should be able to recognize Lagarith -- at least it did when I tried Adobe Elements a while back.

@viktoren, welcome to the forum.

[Viktoren]

Thanks for you replies.

Well... here are some details:
I'm editing a video from different sources: MiniDV PAL taken with a Canon camera (not mine, I don't know the model), MPG files taken my Canon EOS 60D converted in PAL (as they were MOV at 30fps HD), MPG files taken with my phone (Samsung Galaxy S3, converted in PAL as they were MP4), some JPG files.
The project has been started as PAL 16:9 (should be 720x560 as I remember) to be burnt in DVD (with its menu).
In these first 25 minutes I used transitions and overlay titles, added some music from MP3 files.

It was running good until yesterday when I got a couple of "Run out memory" messages and Elements 7 started to get stuck and "freeze" too much.
Everything contained in the timeline has been rendered, so I've got all green lines above the clips except for the last 30 seconds. I had to close the program.

You are right: lossless AVI files would be maybe too huge, so... what about if I finalize the video and burn it on the DVD (in DVD format VOB) as it shoud be finished? Then I import it as it was new video and join with another one done in the same manner. The final work will be to have another DVD in the same format.

I apologize if something is not clear. I'm doing my best with my english

[poisondeathray]

Yes - you could do it that way, export as mpeg2video for dvd (.m2v elementary stream) in sections , then author with your dvd authoring program. I wouldn't export it as a finished DVD format (authored vob), unless there are no other options in elements, since you 're just going to have to demux and reauthor anyways. (In premiere pro you could export elementary video, audio)

[Viktoren]

Thanks again.

I'll check the M2V feature in Elements 7.

[poisondeathray]

Even if it doesn' t have that option , you could still export the DVD format and reauthor sections . You just have to pay attention to where you make your split points (where you divide up the projects). Ideally they should be on scene changes or natural breaks

[Viktoren]

Aw... ok.
I will begin and end the projects/sections with a fade-in / fade-out, so there won't be any sync matter to deal with. Easy Life

I checked on the Adobe site and Elements 7 can import and export the M2V files.

Thanks.

[LMotlow]

Wait a sec. I think you were working mini-DV? Now you mention other formats and have already gone through some lossy re- encoding. The process you describe will re-encode your material yet again! You should be working with your originals, not re-encodes. Downsizing interlaced HD video in Premiere Elements ?? -- I don't even wanna think about it. I guess you could proceed with whatever you feel is comfortable, but it looks as if you're taking some serious quality hits.

The project has been started as PAL 16:9 (should be 720x560 as I remember)

Nope. 720x576, encode with a 16:9 DAR. DVD is not a square-pixel format. https://www.videohelp.com/dvd#tech

[Viktoren]

I probably did not explain correctly.
I am working on files imported in the computer from MiniDV. They have been burnt on disk in DVD format. I imported these DVD in Elements 7 that made three VOB files per DVD. I don't have the hardware to import MiniDVs directly into Elements. This job has been done by a professional that owns the proper equipment.

What do you mean with "Downsizing interlaced HD video in Premiere Elements"?
I'm using Elements only to edit. The Canon EOS 60D MOV files have been converted in PAL with a video converter software and I couldn't notice any loss of quality. The same for the MP4 files taken with the phone.

[smrpix]

DVD video is more demanding on your (meager) computer resources than DV. You should be using the original captures. The 60D and the mp4 files are capable of significantly higher quality than DV, but you've given no indication of settings.

But your real issue is an outdated computer and 6 iterations old software.

[LMotlow]

Okay, I get that you're using different formats, they've all been converted (re-encoded) and burned to DVD (I hope I got that part correct), so that's quality loss #1, the extent depending on how it was done. We've seen no samples of any of these videos, so who's to say? The Canon EOS 60D shoots 1920x1080 @ 25fps interlaced, 1280x720 at 50fps progressive, and I assume at SD it's interlaced 25fps. Unless you were shooting NTSC, but you don't say. So I assume you have 1920x1080 HD interlaced, and this was resized? To do that correctly it would have to be deinterlaced, resized, and reinterlaced before re-encoding to smaller formats.

The original question:

Does anyone know if there could be a loss in quality doing the render/export twice?

If all you did was simple cut and join, no.
If you applied transition, overlays, etc., yes.
If you went through two different encoded formats in the process, yes.
If you say you see no difference in the final product, as you imply, what does it matter?

[Viktoren]

I actually don't know, but I think I shoot in NTSC @30fps by mistake. I never shoot with my camera before and I just did for testing, then I kept on filming because I found it easy.
I know I've been an idiot not looking for the right settings before shooting.

But today I added some more clips and Elements 7 run smooth

I wanted to burn a DVD with these first 25 minutes and check on my TV (PAL Standard Definition and not flat screen Sony Trinitron), but Elements kept crashing every time I click on DVD in the "Share" area, with Windows showing an error related to the WMSDKACodec.vca file.

Now I have to look around what's this about

This film is becoming a kind of odissey.

[Viktoren]

But your real issue is an outdated computer and 6 iterations old software.

I know. I built it 10 years ago with some minor upgrades (RAM and videocard) and it still works good and fast, even with Photoshop CS5.
I discovered that it does not like video editing very much, even if it's got enough specs for running Premiere Elements 7, as Adobe indicated.

I wanted to build a new one, but I ended up with something too expensive

[smrpix]

I actually don't know, but I think I shoot in NTSC @30fps by mistake. I never shoot with my camera before and I just did for testing, then I kept on filming because I found it easy.

Which of the three cameras you've mentioned are you referring to here? Mini DV, Canon or Phone? Please be more specific or no one can understand you.

What are your project settings in Elements, PAL 25i 720x576?

[smrpix]

I discovered that it does not like video editing very much, even if it's got enough specs for running Premiere Elements 7, as Adobe indicated.

Adobe lists minimal specs. Good enough for DV and HDV. Unfortunately, neither the older software nor the older hardware is really up to handling High Definition h.264 material that runs for more than a few seconds.

[Viktoren]

Which of the three cameras you've mentioned are you referring to here? Mini DV, Canon or Phone?

What are your project settings in Elements, PAL 25i 720x576?

Right... I meant the Canon EOS 60D
My project settings are PAL 720x576 @25fps

I realized that this "wmsdkacodec.vca" crash feature comes also when I try to make a MPG in PAL to be seen with my Tvix media player.

Looks like I'm doing all of this for nothing.

[LMotlow]

No,, no one wants you to just give up. Problem at this point is that you're not being specific about the input you're using for Elements. Rather than look at all the original formats all at once, what are you having this current problem with? I refer to the first stage input into your editing program. What format is this video? Rather than guess, you can use the free MediaInfoxp program to give us all the specifics. If you can't get MediaInfo or MediaInfoxp, can you cut a few seconds of video with your editor, not processed, but a simple cut of a few seconds that have motion (camera motion or people moving). Don't make any changes in the software such as changing format, etc., just output the same thing that goes in. It can be uploaded to the forum using the "Manage attachments" button just below the Reply window.

If your input source file is already PAL 25i MPEG from a DVD, there's an even better way to do it. Let us know if the input file is PAL DVD or if it's the earlier HD format.

[Viktoren]

what are you having this current problem with?

I'm halfway to the end.
I edited 25 minutes and the preview looks fine.

I just wanted to burn a DVD or just make a MPEG to see it on my TV.
----------------------------------
Operation I did:

1. Gone into the "Share" section and then click on DVD/Blue Ray button => instant crash

2. Gone into the "Share" section and then click on Personal Computer. Here I choose MPEG, select PAL Widescreen, click on "Start (or Save) => crash

3. Gone into the "Share" section and then click on Personal Computer. Here I choose DV AVI, select PAL Widescreen, click on "Start (or Save) => it works and made a 5GB AVI file.

[LMotlow]

Unless we can get more info and/or a sample of your source as requested, we're simply guessing.

[TreeTops]

And maybe try a later version of Elements. It's up to version 13 which means that your version is about 6 years old.

[Cornucopia]

A little late at the party, but here's what I would do...

1. Fast, non-boot HDD for video media storage (check!)
2. Prep & convert ALL your material, before doing the main edit, into edit-friendly intermediate nearl-lossless format - DNxHD, Cineform, ProRes, Lagarith, High bitrate MPEG2-Iframe etc. Downsize your HD material to WS SD at this time (unless you plan on doing a pan&scan effect) - 720x576.
3. Edit your DI material. Save your project & render your master (also to DI format).
4. Open your DI master clip and re-export to MPEG2 for DVD.
5. Author & burn DVD.

Yes, that requires you back up a bit. Get your DV clips from your friend with the hardware (use an external HDD if necessary). Use those instead of DVD clips. You want your master to be at most 2 generations down from cam originals, and you want it to NOT be lowest common denominator but highest.

DI formats would be much larger filesizes (because of higher bitrate), but would be much easier to work with: Intra-frame only & quick decode speed = low edit overhead + fast response.
Don't make the editor do heavy lifting just to decode the various formats - use the same format throughout (during the actual edit).
DV would be an ok format, but standard DV (and DVCam & DVCPro) uses a 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 color subsampling. Best to up-convert to 4:2:2 for the edit.

Scott

[Viktoren]

Wow.
Thanks for all these information and tips, but for me most of them are hard to understand.
You mentioned pan&scan, 4:1:1 or 4:2:0 color subsampling, Lagarith, High bitrate MPEG2-Iframe, Intra-frame, etc...
I almost don't even know what you are talking about. Last time I used a videocamera it was a VHS-C in the early '90s.
Before going on I think I should update my knowledge.

[Viktoren]

OK !! Solved !!

The "Run Out Memory" error hasn't come out anymore. Now it runs smooth without having done anything specific. It's ok anyway.

The crashes (that were what was irritating me most) have been solved in this way:

They were related between the Premiere Elements 7 executable file and these other files: WMSDKACodec.vca, WMSDKVCodec.vca, WinMediaWriter.vwr, WinMediaOPWriter.vwr.

The VCA files are in the Premiere Elements 7/MediaIO/Codecs folder
The VWR files are in the Premiere Elements 7/MediaIO/Writers folder

I just renamed the extensions from VCA to VCA_Default and the VWR to VWR_Default.

Now the Elements 7 export features work perfectly. I've done a test DVD and looks fine, no loss in quality and the audio sounds good.
I made a MPG file as well, and it looks good either.

Today I went on with my editing with no problems.

It works fine. I'm happy with it.