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I just noticed that I am not seeing what I think I have been seeing. I have been editing videos thinking I am cutting at the frame that I see. But, the selection is actually from selection start to one frame before what I am looking at... That's why it always shows a blank screen if I select everything and move to the end of the selection. Now I have a bunch of truncated clips...
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That's the way the program works. If you mark in at 10 and mark out at 20 it saves 10 through 19.Originally Posted by cheyrn
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You're not selecting a frame, you're selecting a time. If you look at the time-code at the bottom it's the time-code that the frame STARTS, which is also the time-code that the previous frame ENDS, if it left the current frame in the video the video would be 40ms longer then you've asked it to be (for PAL at least).
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If people aren't getting my point. I have been editing video by looking at the screen and seeing where there is a transition. I didn't realize that what I am seeing is one frame (or equivalent time code) after what I have selected. It's WYSPIWYG (what you saw previously is what you get).
For example, if the video is solid white and then transition in one frame, if you cut at the first frame that isn't white on the screen, you end up with one frame of white. -
Since the earliest days of video editing, in point selects the first frame to include, out point selects the first frame to exclude.
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So, you mean people have been looking for the point to cut, by watching the video, then when they find the place to cut, they go forward one frame and then cut?
It's particularly annoying when it's very difficult to tell if you are looking at the same frame twice or not. But, I don't have an alternative yet. I'm looking at ivsEdit LE. If it also does that then that is too bad for me.
If I am the only person who didn't know this then that is good.
Another aspect is that it tells you that it is selecting the frame you are looking at when you are not. For example, looking at frame thirty selecting from the start, it says Selecting frames 0-30 (30 frames), which I suppose should have alerted me because of the arithmetic error.Last edited by cheyrn; 13th Nov 2014 at 18:10.
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vdub is like that, but not all programs are like that. vdub is not a NLE, but in NLE's like premiere is you see what you get for in/out
If you're still using avisynth, start using avspmod. It's a script editor with GUI like functions. The trim editor functions as you assumed it would (inclusive including the current frame that you mark out)
A free NLE would be aviutl . But it's quite "clunky" compared to retail NLE's (you can't edit efficiently by hotkeys, 3 point editing). But it's still an awesome little program , and one of the only free software titles that have multitrack compositing. Most are like vdub, avidemux, single track editors. "racer-x" and "maverick tse" have posted a bunch of tutorials on this site -
There's no math error. If you mark in at frame 0 and mark out at frame 30 you get frames 0 through 29, 30 frames.Originally Posted by cheyrn
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Thanks. I have been using avspmod for error messages.
I didn't know about the adobe creative cloud monthly parasite host arrangement which I would probably pay just for photoshop. So, I will take a look at after effects and premiere.
Really, people read "Selecting frames 0-30" and think that means 0-29 will be the selection that is previewed, filtered and saved? Oh well, I wish I hadn't made zillions or tens of clips that are 1 off. -
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You mark your "out" edit on the first frame you don't want. (I made a small mistake when I said this has been true since the early days of video editing -- it actually goes back to the early days of film.)Originally Posted by cheyrn
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Sony vegas is another popular choice for NLE's. It too is inclusive (e.g. when you select a loop region, the frame that you are currently on for the end frame is included)Originally Posted by cheyrn
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Whatever is considered normal or a good practice. The point of my post is to warn anyone who like me finds they have to redo a bunch of clips because they are all off by 1 frame as a result of 30 not meaning 30 or selected meaning that number minus 1 or an image being displayed meaning that it's what will not be included. I doubt anyone new to video or virtualdub would interpret the messages and display that way.
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Who can spot a problem with the following exchange (rhetorical):
Person A: Watch out you are about to be hit by a bus!!
Person B: That is not a bus. It is an urban transport vehicle. -
One of the first thing I check when using an unfamiliar editor is how it handles the cut points.
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It all makes sense if you think about it: an editor certainly can't cut on both the BEGINNING and the ENDING of a clip/frame, it has to use one or the other. How would it know which one you meant, unless it were consistent? Beginning of in clip/frame to beginning of next (out) clip/frame is the standard. If end of clip/frame were standard how would you ever get the initial frame selected?
Note: if an editor such as Vegas Pro DOES indeed seem to do both, it is probably because it is trying to use context to 2nd guess you.
Scott -
In programs that work the other way, it is understood the that current time indicated / current frame (wherever your playhead is) lasts for 1 frame duration according to the FPS of the clip or timeline setting when set to an OUT point (that's why there is a distinction between IN and OUT point, otherwise you could use the same command or shortcut key for both functions). So mark in is the beginning, mark out is the end of current frame length. Adobe uses this convention (both PP and AE), Apple FCP, Sony. Not sure about Avid MC or Edius
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Maybe I'm saying it wrong. What he said...
(never had to think it through that much, was always just intuitive)
Scott -
To be honest, if it worked your way, for the most part I'd be forced to find the start of the next scene and then move BACK one frame to select the cut point. I'm not sure what you're doing that would let you find the correct frame to cut out at by simply glancing at it and without looking at the time-codes.Originally Posted by cheyrn
Last edited by ndjamena; 14th Nov 2014 at 20:15.
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One more try, then I will stop.
In adobe premiere, in point is the first frame to include in a selection and out point is the last frame that you include. If you set in point at 0 and out point at 29, lift and then paste you have 30 frames, 0-29.
In virtual dub, start selection is the first frame to include in a selection and end selection is one frame beyond the last frame that you will include. If you set start at 0 and end at 29, then crop to selection or export, you get 29 frames 0-28.
Repeat: In adobe premiere Frames 0-29 means 30 frames. In virtualdub Frames 0-29 means 29 frames.
In virtualdub when you select 0-29, it says "Selecting frames 0-29 (29 frames)". The 29 frames part is correct, but in the English language, selecting items 0-29 does not mean that of all items you are selecting 29 of them.
If you are choosing audio items in an editor, when you select 3 in a row, it does not mean 2 to the left of the 3rd.
If you count how many fingers you have on one hand:
You extend 1 finger and look at it. How many fingers have you selected? If you are virtualdub, you have selected no fingers.
You extend 2 fingers and look at the second. How many fingers have you selected? If you are virtualdub, you have selected 1 finger.
If you are selecting fence posts to put on a truck, you pick one up and look at it.
Do you:
a) Say to yourself, I am looking at the first of the fence posts that I will not put on the truck, and wait.
b) Say to yourself, I am looking at the first fence post that I will put on the truck. -
Cheyrn, Who the **** cares about your logic. Ndjamena gave equally valid reasons for VirtualDub working the way it does. Just learn how your tools work and stop whining. What kind of idiot performs a lot of work without checking the output?
Last edited by jagabo; 14th Nov 2014 at 20:53.
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@jagabo, While I agree with you that this whole approach to editing needs help, that response does seem a little extreme...
However, cheryn, if you feel that Vdub is truly misleading in its modus operandi, maybe it would make more sense sending a bug report or a feature request (I/O markpoint option)? Otherwise, it's just griping.
Scott -
Yes, you could make a case for doing things either way , and people have their preferred ways of doing things.
The timeline bar that marks your selection is correct for the way vdub does it - that's another indicator as to how it's actually working. e.g. if you take the mark out at frame 29 example, the blue bar ends at the beginning of 29, indicating 28 is included, but not 29. In other programs, it usually ends right before 30 with an "overhang", indicating that 29 is included
I can see how it would be confusing to some people, especially since some programs handle things differently. Some even start numbering at frame "1" not "zero" . The "layperson" usually thinks frames start at "1", but most video applications start at "zero"
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