Capturing Hi-8 Footage

[rsvfilms]

Hi guys,

I'm new here and this is my first post. Been trailing the internet for days looking for an answer but can't find anything useful. So hopefully you guys can help.

I'm a film-maker and have just shot a video of a band using a HD Cine Camera along with bits of Super 8 & Hi-8. I've only ever used analogue footage once but I didn't edit with it, so this is new to me.

I am obviously fine with getting my HD footage syncing with the sound that was been recorded on the day, and I send off for my Super 8 film to be processed, but my Hi-8 footage keeps going out of sync, when I line it up with the audio.

The camera I am using is a Canon UC-X50. I am capturing the files from an EasyCap USB capture device using S-Video on from my camera to the capture device. I am running Mac OS X and the only available software I can find is "EasyCap Viewer".

I recorded my footage in 25fps, however the software turns it either 50fps or 60fps. I was having trouble syncing that to the audio (which shouldn't be a problem with different frame rates). So I used Handbrake to convert it to 25fps, just in case that's the problem and it still doesn't sync.

I am editing the video in Adobe Premiere Pro CC.

Any ideas what's going on here, or if I am doing anything wrong?


Thanks!

[newpball]

Did you measure how much slower or faster the Hi-8 video is? I mean is it a few seconds off after an hour of footage?


However the more important question is does it really matter?

I assume you are going to make a montage and that your main shots will come from the HD Cine Camera and then here and there some shots from the Hi-8 camera. So as long as those shorts are relatively short the sync issues should not be noticeable.

[rsvfilms]

Hi,

Thanks for the reply.

It varies, sometimes it's slower and sometimes its faster. Usually be about 3-5 seconds.

It's just annoying that if I want to put a long vocal take shot in as apposed to short ones, it goes out of sync after 3 seconds or so, which is pretty unusual I think.

Could it be that the Hi-8 tapes glitch therefore that lags the footage? I just think there shouldn't be a problem surely with syncing.

[2Bdecided]

That is surprising, and weird. Did the HD camcorder shoot 25fps, 50fps, or something else? How did you transfer the Hi8 footage?

[rsvfilms]

The HD cine-camera shot 25fps throughout the performance.

I transferred the Hi-8 footage using an EasyCap video capture device from my Mac via USB to my camera via S-video or composite works too. Then I used the software "EasyCap Viewer" for Mac to capture the Hi-8 video.

I have heard about a "time base corrector"? Is this something that could be an issue too?

If it's any help it seems to be glitching a lot when I moved around with the camera?

[LMotlow]

Confused. Are you mixing different formats, SD and HD? All you've told us is that your videos are 25fps. If you're capturing 25fps analog to DV-AVI (not the best way) and the frame rate is being doubled, your software is apparently deinterlacing an interlaced source. By "converting" this double frame rate back to 25fps, are you re-interlacing or just changing the frame rate?

We need more information about the different formats you're working with.

If you're using a cheapo EasyCAP ripoff, audio sync problems are common. The mixed-up processing and re-encoding you describe is another problem.

I have heard about a "time base corrector"? Is this something that could be an issue too?

Not "could be". It is. Analog tape requires a line level TBC. If it's in really bad shape you might need a frame level tbc with it.
https://www.videohelp.com/glossary?T#Time%20Base%20Corrector,%20TBC

No one say much without a sample of the video you're having trouble with, and more info about your formats.

[2Bdecided]

If it's any help it seems to be glitching a lot when I moved around with the camera?

What, interlacing? Stuttering? ???

I think a sample would help.

What you're describing is strange because, while unsynchronised video sources won't stay in-sync forever, they're quite stable. You wouldn't expect perfect sync one moment, and then visible lip-sync problems three seconds later. Whereas good old analogue audio cassettes would normally drift apart within a matter of seconds, good old analogue VHS usually took a few minutes.

It wouldn't hurt to take just the Hi8 footage as-captured, burn it all to a DVD without editing it, and watch it on a TV. For the cost of a DVD-R, it's going to tell you very quickly whether the capture is pretty-much-OK or hopeless. It should look essentially the same as it does by connecting the camera to the TV and watching the tape direct. If it doesn't, something is wrong. It should be obvious if there are missing frames or jumps.

Cheers,
David.

[2Bdecided]

P.S. A TBC probably won't help with these kind of sync issues unless the video signal was poor and there were dropped frames before, and the TBC solved that. Hi8 isn't normally that bad, and you only recorded the tape recently, so unless the camera is knackered you should be OK.

[LMotlow]

I referred to a line tbc, not a frame tbc. A line tbc would improve analog capture imaging, but likely won't affect audio sync.

[rsvfilms]

Hi all,

Thanks for your helpful replies.

Yes, effectively I am mixing different formats. Using both SD (from Hi-8 camera) and HD (From cine camera). That in itself shouldn't cause any problems though. I simply upscale the SD footage for 1080p output.

So my HI-8 camera is recording footage in 25fps. However when I go to use my EasyCap device and the software on my Mac, it only records the footage in either 50fps or 60fps. To get around this, I used the software Handbrake to convert that footage to 25fps - maybe hoping that would make it sync but it doesn't. My EasyCap device was cheap from eBay, not sure if that is where the problem lies. If you say they can cause audio sync problems then if I have to buy an Elgato one, I am willing to. As long as it actually works and syncs.

I am going to get a sample together and send it over to you guys. My Hi-8 camera has a slight problem with recording audio internally atm, but that shouldn't affect anything visually at all and any syncing issues. To sync we did the good old hand clap. I lined that clap up with the audio that was recorded separately on the day and within a few seconds, when I press play on my video editor, the footage starts to drift.

[newpball]

Hi all,

Thanks for your helpful replies.

Yes, effectively I am mixing different formats. Using both SD (from Hi-8 camera) and HD (From cine camera). That in itself shouldn't cause any problems though. I simply upscale the SD footage for 1080p output.

Upscaling the SD to 1080p would look lousy compared to the HD source not in the least because HI-8 is not very good quality to begin with. I would recommend 'Woodstock' type cutting where the SD video does not occupy the whole screen.

So my HI-8 camera is recording footage in 25fps. However when I go to use my EasyCap device and the software on my Mac, it only records the footage in either 50fps or 60fps.

I do not know this software but since HI-8 is interlaced it sends 50 half frames to the capture card so there many not actually be an issue. Remember to capture the interlaced signal do not try to capture the signal as progressive.

[rsvfilms]

This is EasyCapViewer: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/32004/easycapviewer

It seems to show a Deinterlace option. Giving you either; Line Double, Weave or Alternate (LQ). There's no way to not deinterlace it on the software.

Yeah, it's the look the client really likes. They want a 4:3 image (which Hi-8 is giving) along with 16:9 from HD source.

[LMotlow]

Maybe you should share a quiet tea and gentle discussion with your client, who displays a certain level of visual illiteracy by asking you to produce something that won't play correctly on a BluRay or external media player, or anywhere. I'd agree with others that upscaling the anemic resolution of Hi8 to 1920x1080 HD will look like something the family pet dragged in. Hopefully you don't expect 1920x1080 to play at a 4:3 aspect ratio (your client's player will choke). 4:3 frame layout for HD is already part of the HD standard (the frame size is 1440x1080). You'll also have fits with progressive video at 25fps -- 1920x1080 and 1440x1080 according to the video world's HD rules are acceptable only as interlaced at 25fps and only as progressive at 23.976 or 24fps film speeds. Another problem you'll have with playback standards is that you can't mix frame sizes and DAR's in the same video. There are ways to get a 4:3 video into an HD frame without ruining the 4:3 and without making your HD unplayable -- TV and retail videos do it all the time. But not the way you're doing it.

But so far you've given us no sample of your out of sync video or the master capture from which it came, not even a MediaInfo readout on any video properties. So I don't know why everyone insists in their efforts to second-guess what your sync problem is. Meanwhile you might want to consult some published tables laying out the official formatting and encoding formulas for different HD and SD BluRay/AVCHD schemes that player designers, player machines and disc makers are obliged to work with (and which, according to what I've seen from Adobe on occasion, many software designers ignore):
http://forum.doom9.org/showthread.php?t=154533

[poisondeathray]

This is EasyCapViewer: http://www.macupdate.com/app/mac/32004/easycapviewer

It seems to show a Deinterlace option. Giving you either; Line Double, Weave or Alternate (LQ). There's no way to not deinterlace it on the software.

"Weave" means no deinterlace in most devices and programs. It means weaving 2 fields . You could run a quick test



The problem with converting with handbrake, is it's set to VFR (variable frame rate) by default. This will cause sync issues in most editing programs . That could partially explain if you are experiencing in and out of sync issues. If you explicitly set it to CFR (constant frame rate), you should be ok sync wise IF it was synced to begin with (ie. handbrake won't cause the desync)

(not to mention the avoid avoidable generation loss when you use handbrake)

[2Bdecided]

Maybe you should share a quiet tea and gentle discussion with your client, who displays a certain level of visual illiteracy by asking you to produce something that won't play correctly on a BluRay or external media player, or anywhere.

What are you talking about? If they want to cut to low resolution upscaled SD 4x3 video for effect, they can. It'll have black bars down either side. It will be perfectly legal BluRay/HD video. If it's meant to look bad, they don't even need to worry about the quality of the upconversion.

Note the OP also shot with a real film camera. Either everyone involved is utterly clueless, or it's intentional to have several different "looks" edited together in the final footage to provide visual interest and the desired artistic effect. Some of us would just have shot the whole lot in HD and created the "looks" in post, but actually shooting on three very different cameras is an equally valid way to do it.

If they'd wanted a uniform "look", and done a multi-camera shoot using three very different cameras, that would be idiotic these days. (unavoidable for some in the past when HD cameras were more expensive.) But I doubt that was the intention here.

Cheers,
David.

[LMotlow]

If you want an HD video with some 4:3 low-resolution material inside of it, wouldn't you have a base of HD material with the 4:3 stuff (upscaled or not, whatever) pasted into an HD frame? Surely Adobe Premiere Pro can do that. It's done all the time. I'm saying that you can't have a single sequential HD video at 25FPS interlaced 1920x1080 and then switch over to a different frame size and aspect ratio in the same video.

[2Bdecided]

I think we're saying the same thing then. I can't imagine anyone would try to change frame size mid-video, and a newbie wouldn't even know how to try to do that. They'll just throw things onto an NLE timeline and render it out, which is fine.

Cheers,
David.

[rsvfilms]

This video is for online content only. Just for YouTube.

Thanks 2Bdecided. You are completely right about what I'm going for, mixing of different formats is for visual effect.

It was decided on purpose. We could have done it in post using just HD cameras, but you don't get that same look and feel, in my opinion. It does cut from being full widescreen to having black bars down the side, but they are very happy with that. Especially with the desired look they want.

LMotlow - Many videos from very current acts are using this style of shooting now. Some I've seen have shot the whole thing using vintage style cameras. It may not be what you've seen before, with mixing formats like I am, which is why it may sound out of the norm.

Aside from talking about why I chose this look, which hasn't got much, if anything, to do with what I originally asked, just looking at the HI-8 footage now and strangely enough, if I slow down the footage from 100% (normal speed) to 83%, it seems to keep everything in sync a heck of a lot better than it originally was. Still goes out every now and then, but just needs a bit of moving and sorted. I can only imagine the tape maybe skips or something. But it almost seems as if my footage is speeding up somehow, I'm not sure what is causing this now.

I'm going to get a video sample together for you all. One with normal speed and what is happening, then the same thing with slowed down footage.

[2Bdecided]

50/60=83%. You've captured "PAL" (25/50fps) as "NTSC" (30/60fps). Or have some related problem.

You will need to deinterlace somehow for YouTube, unless you want to leave interlacing combed lines in the footage. I wouldn't do that, even for effect.

I don't suggest you do it, but there's a whole scene devoted to simulating the effects of a CRT TV. That would look great on top of your SD footage.

Cheers,
David.

[rsvfilms]

Ah right, thanks a bunch David.

My Hi-8 camera only films in PAL. So it's definitely 25fps it's filming. However the capture software can be either PAL or NTSC capture. But only at 50fps or 60fps.

I'm sure I tried both but the software has a bug with the PAL recording, so I remember trying NTSC instead then using Handbrake to turn that 60fps footage to 25fps. I tried the same thing with the 50fps capture. But the bug in the capture software makes massive green lines go across on PAL only, so that was unusable footage.

So is this where my problem lies? I need to capture it in PAL somehow?

If I purchase an Elgato capture device, that should fix things I imagine, because that software is much more advanced?

[newpball]

...then using Handbrake to turn that 60fps footage to 25fps. I tried the same thing with the 50fps capture. But the bug in the capture software makes massive green lines go across on PAL only, so that was unusable footage.

So is this where my problem lies? I need to capture it in PAL somehow?

Yes, you need to capture a PAL source in PAL mode.

Besides, turning 60fps into 25fps is not something without issues and Handbrake is not the proper tool to convert something from 60p to 25p.

If I purchase an Elgato capture device, that should fix things I imagine, because that software is much more advanced?

It is not about advanced software, AmaRecTV or Virtualdub would do just fine, in fact they are perfect for the job and they are both free. It is all about a good quality capture card. I would recommend a PCIe card.

[rsvfilms]

Okay, thanks! Evidently this is where the issue lies then.

Is drifting still something that happens nonetheless? Because when slowed down to 83% even after a while it starts to go out of sync.