Best tool(s) for fast review and editing out short clips of .mpg videos

[Dan78]

Hi all,
I'm in the middle of capturing all my old hi-8 and personal VHS videos to my computer. What I'd like to do next is review those captured videos to find the "cute" scenes, then create new videos with just the one or two minute long cute stuff.

In order to do this what I think I want is a very fast (10x or faster) method to simply watch the captured videos, all of which are 1 hour long or longer. Then as I'm watching when I see a part I want to copy, I stop the review and either make the copy of the part I want right then, or make a note of the position in the video so I can use some other tool to create the video clip after the review is finished.

In searching around here, I see lots of references to VirtualDub as a tool that will take an hour long video and turn it into a 5 or 6 minute video, but that's not quite what I want to do so I'm not sure this is the best choice for me.

I have two questions:
1) What is a good tool for reviewing a video at 10 times or more of the normal playback speed?
2) What is a good tool for copying a small section of a video into a new video?

In case it matters, my capture tool is Easy VHS to DVD 3 Plus, and the files it's creating on my laptop are .mpg files.

Thanks for any advice,
Dan

[LMotlow]

Considering the way you're capturing and the software you're using, output quality is apparently not a priority. You might be interested in a similar "edit" thread currently under way: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/368099-Need-New-Encoding-Software?p=2353790&viewful...=1#post2353790

Maybe you should look into some smart-rendering editors like SONY Movie Studio Platinum. Widely sold at considerable discount. Other editors are listed in the forum Tools section https://www.videohelp.com/tools.

[Dan78]

Thanks for the tips.

So have I made a really poor decision on how to capture my old Hi-8 videos? How much quality do I lose by playing the video on the camcorder and capturing it with the VHS to DVD adapter anyway?

I'm just getting started in this transfer process and would be quite willing to use a better capture method. Any recommendations would be appreciated.

Thanks!

[LMotlow]

8mm and Hi8 have playback that is just as unstable as good ole VHS, with the line wiggles and other jitter that results from not using a line tbc device to correct timing errors. If you're not playing those tapes with a camera that has a built-in line tbc (few of them do), those errors are easily visible. If you're using composite output to the capture device you have excessive chroma noise and dot crawl. Residual tape noise doesn't sit well with digital encoders, especially with MPEG or h264, and gets interpreted as blocky, grainy artifacts. Depending on the bitrate at which you capture, you lose from 25% to 65% of the original data on your tapes, and source video noise is amplified. By editing that lossy encode you lose yet another 25% to 65% of the lossy original, and this further loss usually becomes apparent as more noisy artifacts, old artifacts distorted into new ones, loss of clarity, and poor motion control.

But most people will do what you're doing. It's the easiest and fastest way. The other way is to get a better tape player or try to use S-video output, get a line tbc of some kind, and capture analog to lossless media on a computer. If lossless isn't possible or if you feel it isn't worth the effort, you can capture analog tape the second-best way with slightly compressed DV-AVI. DV-AVI is PC-only playback. It must be re-encoded for DVD or BluRay output or for formats playable on external media players.

Lossless captures must also be re-encoded to the desired format, but with lossless there is only one lossy encode, not two. The benefit is that MPEG or BluRay encoded with better PC-available encoders don't look nearly as bad as MPEG encoding thru cheap DVD adapter devices or recorded to today's inferior DVD recorders. The other benefit is that DV-AVI cut-and-join operations are usually performed without excessive re-encoding, while editing with lossless media requires no re-encoding at all until the final step of encoding to the desired delivery format.

Other than capturing analog sources to better formats for editing, you can edit existing MPEG2 by using a smart-rendering editor. Smart rendering allows one to cut out or insert clips or join clips together. The only re-encoding is a re-rendering of the few GOP blocks in the immediate area of the cut or join. The new smart-rendered video is then output as a new copy of the original. However, if you apply color correction, overlaid titles, etc., the entire MPEG will be re-encoded whether you like it or not.

[Dan78]

Thanks again for the info.

Here's kind of where I'm at: I want to capture my analog home video to digital at a good quality level. I can afford to spend a few hundred bucks to do so. I have a total of maybe 25 to 30 hours of analog video to capture. The home video is mostly Hi-8 camcorder tapes, but I have a few old VHS tapes as well that I'll need to convert.

I'm thinking I'll get an AVT-8710 for TBC, but I have a few questions on how I would set it up.

I think my setup for the Hi-8 tapes would look like this:

1) S-video from camcorder to 8710
2) S-video from 8710 to the dongle that came with my VHS-to-DVD purchase
3) RCA audio from camcorder to VHS-to-DVD dongle
4) VHS-to-DVD dongle to USB port on my laptop

Questions:
a) Can I use the VHS-to-DVD dongle without degrading video quality?
.... i) If the dongle is crap, what should I use instead?
b) Will the audio still be in sync with the video. (Since the audio bypasses the 8710, I'm worried it won't align properly)
.... i) If the audio is likely to be out of sync, how do I fix it?
c) Does the capture software on my PC matter? e.g. if I use the VHS-to-DVD capture software, will it degrade my TBC'd video?
.... i) If the capture software does matter, what's a good choice?
d) What else am I over looking?

Thanks.

[newpball]

The best practical chain would be:

1. Play the video in a S-VHS desk with int or ext TBC connecting through the SVIDEO output.
2. Capture interlaced with a good quality PCI capture card
3. Use a lossless CODEC (which one may depend on the capture card)
4. Copy the results on a disk and archive it in a safe place.
5. Process the results in an NLE and encode to various delivery CODECs (e.g. MPEG-2, H.264)

[LMotlow]

newpball summed it up. There's a lot to this capture and transfer business. Frankly lots of people aren't up to it. Judge for yourself;

I'm thinking I'll get an AVT-8710 for TBC, but I have a few questions on how I would set it up.

Are your tapes commercial issues with copy protection? If not, you won't need a frame-level TBC unless you have really serious tape playback problems. The biggest problem with analog tape playback is line-sync errors within frames. Frame TBC's like the AVT-8710 have no effect on line sync. You need a line-level tbc for that. If you use a line-level tbc and a frame-level tbc at the same time, the line tbc must precede the frame tbc in the capture chain.

An example of line sync distortion, even if a rather mild one, and how a line tbc pass-thru device can clean it up is here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/306272-Computer-video-capture-vs-vcr-to-dvd-combo?p...=1#post1882662. Line sync distortion is on the right, the tbc repair is on the right. Note that line sync problems often look worse on typical analog tapes, which includes bent or warped side borders and top-border distortion or flagging (also called tearing).

More severe examples were posted years back by a member here. I copied the before & after samples before he left the forum. The "fixed" sample isn't the final delivery version, which required more work according to the post. But it's an example of how the initial line tbc corrected some severe problems.
- A_Sample2_bad.mpg (24MB) was capped without a tbc. https://www.mediafire.com/?8jgwn0cvzs7s059
- B_Sample2_fix.mpg (22 MB) used a pass-thru line TBC. More cleanup said to be needed later. https://www.mediafire.com/?5e4kj1350qxk68r

There are several weak points and a couple of mistakes in your workflow. This is one of them:

Can I use the dongle that came VHS-to-DVD3 without degrading video quality?

I believe it's already been mentioned that the device and its software are far from the quality you're looking for. Besides that, capturing analog tape directly to DVD is a low-quality of doing it and is the wrong choice for editing or corrective work. MPEG is a final-delivery format. Final delivery formats imply that the format is the last step in a transfer or creation process, not the first step. Two other well-known formats that are final delivery formats are BluRay and AVCHD.

There are short and long answers to your question about the dongle and its software. The short answer is that if using a device and method that guarantees a low-quality starting point, it's self defeating to keep using it.

The longer answer is that analog source isn't recorded, it's captured to a losssles or near-lossless format designed for video editing and, later, for re-encoding to a final delivery product. The best consumer affordable capture devices for analog tape haven't been made for several years. They're hard to find in the used market. Many pro restoration shops still use them, but anyone who still owns a working model and has work to do would be unwilling to part with those capture cards.

The entirely lossless method means capture to unencoded AVI using lossless huffyuv or Lagarith compressors. Two current and affordable capture devices are the Diamond Multimedia ATI 600 TV Wonder USB (getting tough to find these days) and the Diamond One-Touch VC500 USB. The first uses VirtualDub for capture, the second uses its own software and can capture to lossless AVI or other formats.

The secondary choice is low-compression (not entirely lossless) capture to DV-AVI. There are many so-so or worse DV-AVI devices, but Canopus is considered teh preferred product line. Canopus isn't cheap ($150 and up). DV can be converted to lossless media if a lot of correction or heavy editing is needed. DV is PC-only playback. It has to be re-encoded to a final delivery format if you want universal playback. Many DV capture devices require a FireWire port on your PC.

You don't say what you're using for tape playback, but you imply that the player has s-video output. Is this player a VCR, and what model is it?

We need more information. If you have an s-video tape player, why are you using your camcorder? Is your camcorder the player? What model is it? Do you know if the camcorder has a line tbc built-in? If you have no line tbc, you can use a few specific, older DVD recorders as pass-thru devices. if you do so, you likely won't need the AVT-8710 for copy protected tapes.

You can do some decent editing and disc authoring with SONY Movie Studio Platinum, sold at hefty discounts everywhere. For cleanup of analog artifacts, grain, rainbows, dropouts, chroma noise, halos, ringing and edge ghosting and other over sharpening defects, and all the other analog junk, you'll need VirtualDub at least. Editors have little or no talent for cleanup. That's not what they were designed for.

With suitable players and line sync in the chain, and fewer unneeded components, you should have no audio sync problems.

If you want more detail on how your current transfers might be improved, you can upload a few seconds of sample video to this forum using the "Uload Files" icon below the Reply window in forum threads. We'd need a piece of an original MPEg recording made with your dongle setup, not something that's gone through processing. A sample can be easily cut with the free DGindex utility. A quick tutorial on how to use DGindex is here: https://forum.videohelp.com/threads/359295-Record-without-interlacing?p=2272359&viewful...=1#post2272359 .

[Dan78]

Thanks for the replies. Here's more info. I'll follow this post with another that has my latest plan and some questions...

Are your tapes commercial issues with copy protection?

No, my VHS tapes are not commercial issues. They're tapes my Mom had made many years ago that contain our family's (really old) home movies. Stuff from the 1950's and 60's. I don't have the originals of any of those old home movies, just the VHS tapes. Then I have my own Hi-8 8mm tapes and the Sony Handycam that made them.

If you have an s-video tape player, why are you using your camcorder? Is your camcorder the player? What model is it? Do you know if the camcorder has a line tbc built-in?

The video I want to capture comes in two formats. One is non-commercial VHS tapes, the other is 8mm HS videocassette. So the camcorder is the player for some tapes, and my VCR the player for other tapes. None of my current VCRs have an s-video output. My Camcorder is a Sony CCD-TR400. It does not have TBC, but it does have s-video output.

[Dan78]

Since my tapes are non-commercial it seems the AVT-8710 is NOT what I need and in fact it really won't do me any good. Seems for this part of the equation I need/want the ES10. So I’ll be on the hunt for a used one of these once I have an expert thumbs-up for my setup.

And I need a better method of getting the video into my laptop. In hunting around for the options LMotlow mentioned, I see I can buy a Diamond VC500 USB2.0 One Touch Video Capture on Amazon for $33. I didn’t see anywhere to get the Diamond ATI 600 USB though.

I did see an ATI TV Wonder HD 600 PCIE PC TV Tuner card for sale though, and I do have an old Dell Dimension 4700 which I'm fairly sure will still boot up. It has Windows XP and has the needed PCI Express x1 slot. Would this combo be better for capture than the VC500 USB?

What I end up with for capture then is:
Camcorder --> ES10 --> VC500 USB --> laptop (for my 8mm videocassettes)

and

VCR --> ES10 --> VC500 USB --> laptop (for my VHS tapes)

(Or if significantly better, it could be ES10 --> ATI 600 PCI --> PC)

A few more questions:

When I look at a used Panasonic DMR ES10 on the back of the unit I see the composite A/V inputs, plus an S-video input. And I see the composite A/V outputs, plus an S-video output. For my camcorder capture, to use the line TBC pass through do I just hook up my camcorder to the input, power up the unit, and the output will always be line TBC'd? Or is there some menu setup on the ES10 that would require me to hook it up to my TV and crawl through the menus?

When I play my VHS tapes, I'll be using a Sony SLV-662HF unit. It does not have tbc. Do I need to add something to eliminate the "dot crawl" I've seen talked about when using composite A/V without s-video?

Thanks again for all the good advice. I figure I need to get the hardware gathered that I need first, then once I have that I'll be back reading (or asking more questions) about what to do with the (hopefully) lossless video I’ve now got on my computer.

[usually_quiet]

There is no special menu. All you have to do to use a Panasonic DVD recorder as line TBC is hook up your source device to "IN1", hook up the capture device to the compatible "OUT" connections and power on the DVD recorder. If you can't find an ES10, an ES15 would be another good choice.

[Dan78]

Thanks for the info on the ES10. I did find one on ebay already. Should arrive in about a week or so.

I think my last question on the setup has to do with the VC500 USB vs the ATI 600 PCI for the capture to my PC. Is one significantly better than the other?

Thanks,
Dan

[jagabo]

mpg2cut2 Only cuts on key frames though.

[LMotlow]

Yep, the ATI 600 devices are getting tough to find. People have bought 'em up from the used market. You're not likely to see a difference between the two devices other than the software they use for capture.

Concerning your workflow setup:

For Hi8 I'd suggest:
- camera s-video output
- ES10/15 Line-1 s-video input ---> s-video output to capture device.

For VHS:
- VCR composite output (you won't need your camera for VHS)
- ES10/15 Line-1 composite input ---> s-video output to capture device. The ES10/ES15 y/c comb filter is always turned on. The Panasonics have good internal composite-to-svideo electronic conversion.

You will need the ES10's remote or a universal remote that can be set to transmit the same functions.

[Dan78]

Thanks so much everyone for all your advice and help. I'm glad I found this site as I would have ended up doing a really crappy job of capturing my home movies.

Special thanks to LMotlow for all your advice and to lordsmurf for his excellent website.

Regards,