Capturing VHS-C, Hi8 and DV tapes, but which FINAL format for viewing?

[joeman]

Hello All,

It's been a looong time since I've done any video editing and need some help with 'final' conversion formats for a bunch of tapes (VHS-C, Hi8 and DV) that I have been putting off for WAY too long. I have been capturing using the ADVC-100 and Pinnacle Studio 17 and was wondering what formats I should be putting my finished videos into...

I'm capturing all the Hi8 and VHS-C in 'standard' DV format (720x480 through Pinnacle) so that I may edit the video and then 'Export' said video so it may be viewed by others on their Televisions. The current DV format is un-playable by TV/USB or Media Player such as my Aios or WD which surprised me, but I assume that is my ignorance in not knowing 'exactly' what DV format was used (Pinnacle does not seem too helpful in this respect..). As such, I'm completely stumped about what format and which resolution I should be exporting both the Hi8 and VHS-C tapes (DV tapes for that matter too!) once I've finished my simple edits!.

I would like 'prefer' that the format be compatible for newer USB slots on TV's and Media Players, but DVD's (Blu-ray, dual-layer, or regular DVD) would be nice too. Do I need to export/convert differently for one or the other? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Cheers,

[akkers]

I have done pretty much what you are trying to do. I had 'tons' of VHS/Hi8/DV tapes which were doomed with players going out of circulation. So capture them all to the pc in AVI/DV format. I then did quick edits to clean up (although this step is optional). I then converted them to mp4/ACHD which is pretty universal on TVs these days (you can copy them to a USB which can plug into a modern tv and be played). If any of my friends did not have a modern tv then I would convert the footage to mpeg2 and then DVD. I kept the avi filese intact and archived in case a better format comes along in future and I need to redit and re-encode (I have enough disk space).

[newpball]

Presently you cannot go wrong by using the AVCHD format.

[_Al_]

you can give a shot to this, it batch encodes DV avi files to mp4 (interlaced or progressive) or DVD, Avisynth and DV codec needed -that Avisynth can read in the background, I have Cedocida DV codec installed and it works ... some complain that it does not work under win8, where one QTGMC filter is a problem (while making progressive mp4)...

[LMotlow]

I would like 'prefer' that the format be compatible for newer USB slots on TV's and Media Players, but DVD's (Blu-ray, dual-layer, or regular DVD) would be nice too. Do I need to export/convert differently for one or the other? Any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

DVD players can't play AVCHD or other H264 formats, and many cheapies play nothing but DVD. And not everyone wants to pay for a TV that doubles as a media player. Although a plain vanilla DVD-only player is getting hard to find, a great many people don't want BluRay or don't care. Give folks another generation to catch up.

[usually_quiet]

I would pick DVD + .mpg myself. There aren't many media players that can't do a good job playing MPEG-2 video.

No matter what final format you pick archive the DV captures. If you can't keep them all, then keep those from the videos that are most important to you. That way if you need to convert to a different format in a few years, you will have a better source from which to start than the final format.

[joeman]

Great suggestions, Thanks...

I have captured some VHS and VHS-C test video using my NEC 8600 VHS player and the results seem quite good (DV 720 x 480 through S-Video). However, I just can't seem to find a conversion format using Pinnacle 17 that allows me to get a decent looking video for DVD/USB, etc... The only one that seems to come close, but still noticeably inferior from the DV format is "Mpeg 2, 720x480 @ 8000 kbps and Mpeg 2, 480x480 @ 8000 kbps". I don't seem to have the option to go 'higher' than the 8000 kbps bitrate using the pinnacle program. Is there some other software that I should be using instead, or is 8000kbps the 'max' I can use?

[LMotlow]

Great suggestions, Thanks...

I have captured some VHS and VHS-C test video using my NEC 8600 VHS player and the results seem quite good (DV 720 x 480 through S-Video). However, I just can't seem to find a conversion format using Pinnacle 17 that allows me to get a decent looking video for DVD/USB, etc... The only one that seems to come close, but still noticeably inferior from the DV format is "Mpeg 2, 720x480 @ 8000 kbps and Mpeg 2, 480x480 @ 8000 kbps". I don't seem to have the option to go 'higher' than the 8000 kbps bitrate using the pinnacle program. Is there some other software that I should be using instead, or is 8000kbps the 'max' I can use?

Well, let's see ..... old tapes captured to an unfriendly DV format, no line tbc, Pinnacle software....

Sounds pretty much like the usual methods most people use for old tapes, with pretty much the same results. MPEG/DVD is probably your most "universal" choice, although many players would choke on what you say is "480x480" MPEG (maybe that's a typo?). Without some cleanup of the usual visual shortcomings we'd likely see from the workflow you describe, there's really no magic format. A couple of suggestions, though....

First, get better cleanup and encoding software. There are free encoders and authoring apps in the forum tools section that use the excellent HCenc MPEG encoder. I don't know how much bigger than 720x480 you want to go with so-so quality source material (VHS won't upscale well at all and always looks crappy), but the BluRay/AVCHD spec includes standard definition video at bitrates typically ~15,000 kbps using h264 and even MPEG-HD encoding. Free tools like AVS2DVD and AnyAVCHD won't clean up the usual VHS-DV capture problems (you'll need Avisynth for that) but they'll give you better encoding.

The current DV format is un-playable by TV/USB or Media Player such as my Aios or WD which surprised me, but I assume that is my ignorance in not knowing 'exactly' what DV format was used (Pinnacle does not seem too helpful in this respect..).

There is no "DV" format that's playable on anything except a computer or via DV camera.

I'd say AVCHD is not the perfect format. Not yet, anyway, unless you expect to be among a select group of those who can watch your videos. Not everyone owns a BluRay or external media player. In fact most people don't own either.

[manono]

"480x480" MPEG (maybe that's a typo?).

NTSC SVCDs use MPEG-2 video at 480x480. But I make DVDs from all my tape captures as well.

If he's getting lousy results from the caps, as you're also speculating, he has to filter out at least some of the noise. And if the Pinnacle encoder allows only a max bitrate of 8000, like you I'd also recommend HCEnc. Maybe he's trying to use PCM WAV audio. Convert it to AC3 at DD 192 or 224 and you can go close to the max DVD video bitrate of 9800. I use 9500 for all my DVDs.

[joeman]

"480x480" MPEG (maybe that's a typo?).

NTSC SVCDs use MPEG-2 video at 480x480. But I make DVDs from all my tape captures as well.

If he's getting lousy results from the caps, as you're also speculating, he has to filter out at least some of the noise. And if the Pinnacle encoder allows only a max bitrate of 8000, like you I'd also recommend HCEnc. Maybe he's trying to use PCM WAV audio. Convert it to AC3 at DD 192 or 224 and you can go close to the max DVD video bitrate of 9800. I use 9500 for all my DVDs.

Hmmm, that's interesting. The Pinnacle software DOES allow me to 'capture' MPEG 2 @ 10000 and the results were surprisingly good! However, again this is an issue if I want to Edit, Author or what-have-you within Pinnacle due my having to 'Export' the video into MPEG 2 format once finished. I'm not clear why it allows me to 'Capture' MPEG 2 @ 10000 kbps, but doesn't allow me to 'export' the same after a DV capture. Anyway, the results certainly seem somewhat better than when attempting to export an MPEG 2 from a DV capture. Having said that, there are many MPEG 2 formats that allow exporting far beyond the 10000 cap, but those are sizes above the 720x480 resolution, resulting in huge file sizes.

Great suggestions, Thanks...

I have captured some VHS and VHS-C test video using my NEC 8600 VHS player and the results seem quite good (DV 720 x 480 through S-Video). However, I just can't seem to find a conversion format using Pinnacle 17 that allows me to get a decent looking video for DVD/USB, etc... The only one that seems to come close, but still noticeably inferior from the DV format is "Mpeg 2, 720x480 @ 8000 kbps and Mpeg 2, 480x480 @ 8000 kbps". I don't seem to have the option to go 'higher' than the 8000 kbps bitrate using the pinnacle program. Is there some other software that I should be using instead, or is 8000kbps the 'max' I can use?

Well, let's see ..... old tapes captured to an unfriendly DV format, no line tbc, Pinnacle software....

Sounds pretty much like the usual methods most people use for old tapes, with pretty much the same results. MPEG/DVD is probably your most "universal" choice, although many players would choke on what you say is "480x480" MPEG (maybe that's a typo?). Without some cleanup of the usual visual shortcomings we'd likely see from the workflow you describe, there's really no magic format. A couple of suggestions, though....

First, get better cleanup and encoding software. There are free encoders and authoring apps in the forum tools section that use the excellent HCenc MPEG encoder. I don't know how much bigger than 720x480 you want to go with so-so quality source material (VHS won't upscale well at all and always looks crappy), but the BluRay/AVCHD spec includes standard definition video at bitrates typically ~15,000 kbps using h264 and even MPEG-HD encoding. Free tools like AVS2DVD and AnyAVCHD won't clean up the usual VHS-DV capture problems (you'll need Avisynth for that) but they'll give you better encoding.

The current DV format is un-playable by TV/USB or Media Player such as my Aios or WD which surprised me, but I assume that is my ignorance in not knowing 'exactly' what DV format was used (Pinnacle does not seem too helpful in this respect..).

There is no "DV" format that's playable on anything except a computer or via DV camera.

I'd say AVCHD is not the perfect format. Not yet, anyway, unless you expect to be among a select group of those who can watch your videos. Not everyone owns a BluRay or external media player. In fact most people don't own either.

Although I have access to any type of authoring software (have an acquaintance in the movie business) and most hardware (I'm a hardware reseller..), I chose Pinnacle due to it's simplicity and my familiarity with it from years gone by... I'm starting to think that perhaps I should have started with Adobe Premiere instead now that I'm encountering limitations with Pinnacle 17 HD.

To be clear, I'm not really looking for MASSIVE files in DV format... Just files in a 'near' loss-less format that will allow me to preserve the video, store and then allow me to edit at my leisure. I can then re-encode into something viewable for Family members and this is kinda' where I'm getting 'stuck'. Oddly, it seems that my HI8 captures turned out much better and look almost as good as the original tape. This seems to be the case with the Original VHS DV captures as well as they seem to look as good as the tapes themselves when watching through S-Video or RCA.

I could swear that this NEC SVHS player has some sort of TBC or 'something' that is making my tapes look better... Not sure what it's doing, but I made many detailed hand-written notes regarding the Tapes (bad spots, horizontal white lines, tearing, etc..) and this player DEFINITELY has taken some of that away. Either that, or it's a combination of both the NEC player and the ADVC-100. Either way, the quality is noticeably better when playing back these VHS-C tapes.

So it seems to me that if I'm going to Author and Edit my VHS captures using the Pinnacle software, I'm likely going to continue having those 'limited options' in terms of exporting into MPEG 2 or similar format... I suppose I could always RE-RENDER another DV format once editing or authoring is completed and THEN export 'AGAIN' into a MPEG 2 format using yet another piece of software, but just the thought of having to do all that work makes my stomach roll and would likely make the final product no better or likely worse than it is already.

I can only surmise that my best bet is to use a Editing Suite that is going to give me more control and options when it comes to Capturing, Editing and ultimately, 'Exporting' my video...

Comments and/or Suggestions anyone?

Cheers,

[_Al_]

If you do not enhance picture, then it is very easy to process your videos.

To use more softwares in the process is good, not bad.

To capture to mpeg2 is not optimal, you should capture at least to DV avi. Then you edit this DVavi and export it from Pinnacle , same as original. Pinnacle and any other editing software can export DVavi without re-compressing video again (as oppose to mpeg2) And
then you work scenarios like , DVavi to DVD or DVavi to mp4 etc.. Using any other, free mind you, softwares that do much better job than Pinnacle. And you use those DVavi for archiving purposes.

Does Pinnacle re-render that captured 10000kbps mpeg2 to mpeg2 again after editing? Then that captured bitrate can be whatever. Is has nothing to do with exported bitrate, and that should be DVD compliant anyway.

[LMotlow]

I'm starting to think that perhaps I should have started with Adobe Premiere instead now that I'm encountering limitations with Pinnacle 17 HD.

Do you refer to Adobe Premiere Elements or Adobe Premiere Pro? I doubt you mean the latter, which would be overkill anyway. Premiere Elements would be an improvement over Pinnacle, but I'd think the budget priced Sony Movie Studio Platinum is a better choice.

To be clear, I'm not really looking for MASSIVE files in DV format... Just files in a 'near' loss-less format that will allow me to preserve the video, store and then allow me to edit at my leisure.

DV-AVI is near lossless, but it's a bit unfriendly with analog sources. Even with DV, the kind of processing you suggest still involves lossy re-encoding of lossy originals, which means -- I guess it bears repeating -- more loss, more noise, lower quality, and difficult final encoding. There's no way around it.

I can then re-encode into something viewable for Family members and this is kinda' where I'm getting 'stuck'.

IF your friends and relatives have BluRay or external media players, then standard definition BluRay or AVCHD would be OK, as would DVD. If they don't have the proper players, go with universally compatible DVD. There's nothing "bad" about DVD, it's still good enough to be a mainstay in the commercial market. But anybody can make low-quality video with any encoder.

Oddly, it seems that my HI8 captures turned out much better and look almost as good as the original tape. This seems to be the case with the Original VHS DV captures as well as they seem to look as good as the tapes themselves when watching through S-Video or RCA.

Not only is that odd, but I beg to disagree that they look "as good". That wouldn't be possible. If you submitted a short sample of an original unprocessed capture, it would be easy enough to prove.

I could swear that this NEC SVHS player has some sort of TBC or 'something' that is making my tapes look better... Not sure what it's doing, but I made many detailed hand-written notes regarding the Tapes (bad spots, horizontal white lines, tearing, etc..) and this player DEFINITELY has taken some of that away. Either that, or it's a combination of both the NEC player and the ADVC-100. Either way, the quality is noticeably better when playing back these VHS-C tapes.

That's possible. I'm not completely familiar with the unit, but I did read somewhere that it's a rebranded JVC. If so, and if it isn't a cheapie, it might have JVC's tbc and DNR built-in. Again, a sample is worth a thousand guesses.

There's a saying among tech forums: friends don't let their friends use Pinnacle. I speak from many posts and from my own experience with it. Also, _AL_ made some valid points. Considering what you want to do, you could save archive space capturing to DV -- not "better" than lossless and not without compression artifacts, but tons better than recording to MPEG or similar codecs that are not designed for editing. The idea behind lossless, and the reason why it's still the first choice for post-capture processing, is that lossless means what it says -- lossless multi-stage processing and a higher quality final product. You can cap to DV but work with lossless intermediate files using lossless compressors. Other than that, multiple changes like color correction, transitions, etc., are never lossless with lossy encoded video. So if the idea of working with lossless intermediate files (which you don't have to keep after you finish your project) is verboten, all one can say is: be content to live with the results.