Microsoft backs DVD+RW format

[SHS]

http://news.com.com/2100-1040-879980.html or see
http://www.3dspotlight.com/#newsitemEpEluZAApkIbkQTDNN if CNet news not working for you

[jeepman]

Does this mean I shouldn't get the Pioneer A04/104 now? I am glad I am not high bidder for one anymore.

Darn Microsoft, what'd they go a do this for?

[Anonymous65]

When Micro$oft push for something, you can be sure it will take over sooner or later...
Unless they are too late. This might be the case of the VHS and Beta VCR. Beta was better, but was too slow getting into the market. DVD-R is already here, and popular. DVD+R is still waiting behind the sceens.

[Kusanagi]

An interesting discussion of all of this is going down here:

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=939

Kusanagi

[alkieman]

actually, Windows XP already supports writeable DVD. I can write happily to my Pioneer using Windows Explorer as the drive is directly recognised by XP. Put in a blank and (if auto insert is turned on) windows opens an explorer window for it ready to accept files in the same way as it does with CD-R discs.

Not sure if it was hidden away in one of the XP updates but it works.

Microsoft have incorporated DVD-RAM into earlier versions of Windows too but it hasn't done DVD-RAM much good. At the end of the day it is the consumers that decide. Once again however, it will all ultimately help to drive down prices of the competing formats.

Also whatever format you own will come with drivers to work with your operating system if Windows does not natively support it. Microsoft is to incorporate a cut down version of one of Sonic's products for DVD Video production in the same way they have a cut down version of Easy CD Creator built into XP. Most people will still buy decent authoring and burning software anyway so it makes no difference except for the very few that are happy with built in solutions.

How many video editors do you know who use Windows Movie Maker?

[alkieman]

oh, and on the other point of Microsoft always winning, that hasn't proved the case with the X-Box. The head of Microsoft X-Box division resigned because of very poor sales.

Figures published in the press here stated that X-Box sold just 6500 units in Japan the week after launch, in the same week PS2 sales were 100,000. In Europe X-Box sales are 25% behind target and rumours abound of an early price cut.

In the US sales of the PS2 outsold both the Gamecube and X-Box combined over Christmas.

The X-Box is undoubtedly the most powerful of the three but even with Microsoft's own marketing power it doesn't appear to be winning the battle. Me, I'll buy one when the price drops so I can play Halo



So even with direct DVD+RW support built in to Windows the format may still not win the eventual war.

[Octagon]

alkieman WTF are you on. That argument is bull shit. This isnt console system's were talking about here. Microsoft makes our Os, so there is a high probablity it will be the defacto standard. But it might not be. Citing sales figures doesn't prove your argument at all.

[alkieman]

Octagon, the point I was making was that Microsoft DO NOT always get their own way as skittleson suggested "When Micro$oft push for something, you can be sure it will take over sooner or later... "

Microsoft have support DVD-RAM directly in Windows for a few years now and it hasn't made DVD-RAM the home DVD Recording standard has it?.

Whichever of the home DVD Recording formats wins eventually will be decided by home AV consumers not by the PC market. And you will notice that I don't use suggested bad language and resort to insults like you do.

[SLK001]

Hey, just because Microsoft puts their weight behind something doesn't mean that success is guaranteed. Remember their set top "TiVO" wantabe? How about "BOB".

Anyway, who cares about this? They make my operating system, but I hardly use very much more of their software. You think I'm going to care if they have some "crappy, bug ridden" DVD+R/RW writing software? Hell no... I'm going to continue to use the programs that have proven themselves out to me... in this case, I will stick with my NERO as my "de facto" burning software. I personally don't want to wait 5 years for their writing software to "mature" enough to be reliable. By that time, DVD+R/RW will be a distant memory in the marketplace.

[Faustus]

Its all about what people buy... if you buy -r it will win if you buy +r it will win. Which ever sells wins... but with the lagging behind avalibility of the +r disk and the cost of those suckers being higher per media I'll stick with my -R personally.

As far as microsofts support all that means is the build in software will support +RW over -RW, frankly... who cares? I have no plans to burn with built in software.

My -r can backup data and be read on almost and DVD-ROM and my movies can play on almost any DVD Settop player, so I could care less about +RW's standard... heck its not even supported by the DVD forum, actually I think I read somewhere they they lied to them at some early point in its development by saying it woudl not support video.

The history of +RW reminds me alot of M$, meaning very shady, personally I'll have nothing to do with it.

[schwinn]

If Billy boy suports it. It's likely second rate at best or has spyware or something else hidden in it just my 2 cents worth....

[Kusanagi]

heck its not even supported by the DVD forum, actually I think I read somewhere they they lied to them at some early point in its development by saying it woudl not support video.

Yep, the +RW Alliance have been lying since the beginning. See here:

http://dvddemystified.com/dvdfaq.html#4.3.5

"DVD+RW backers claimed in 1997 that the format would be used only for computer data, not home video, but this was apparently a smokescreen intended to placate the DVD Forum and competitors. The original 1.0 format, which held 3 billion bytes (2.8 gigabytes) per side and was not compatible with any existing players and drives, was abandoned in late 1999."


Kusanagi

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[Eug]

Hi

Just wanted to add something about this Microsoft backs +RW format business:

Take the marketing spin away from the news release and we actually have:

Microsoft adds Mt Rainer support to Longhorn

Microsoft are not backing any format, +RW only got tide up in it as Philips have said 3rd generation drives will have Mt Rainer, and saw it as a marketing opportunity. Mt Rainer is a bit like the ASPI layer for SCSI, it is just a layer added to the OS to provide support for various commands that Mt Rainer hardware expects, this hardware could be CD drives, DVD drives, or any other future type of media. Pioneer are also a supporting member of Mt Rainer, and very likely DVD-RW drives will get support, but probably will not happen until they officially launch 2 or 4 speed DVD-RW as at 1 speed, with the extra overheads of addressing and defect management it is going to be a bit slow!

Regards

Philip

One should also point out that it is most likely that current DVD+RW drives will NOT support Mt. Rainier. Thus to get the supposed OS-level benefits that Microsoft is talking about you may have to buy a new drive.

Furthermore, from all that I have read, the data support of DVD+RW with Mt. Rainier is still not as good as what is available in Windows XP with DVD-RAM today. In other words, the best reliability that DVD+RW can offer with Mt. Rainier is still not as good as DVD-RAM - not an insignificant point if your data is important to you.

That said, even though DVD-RAM data support is superior and even though it's already OS native in Windows XP and Mac OS X, I believe it is unlikely it's going to be the dominant data format, unless the big companies like Panasonic, LG, Samsung, Hitachi continue the push for DVD-RAM/-RW/-R combo drives.

[Kennyshin]

At least LG and Samsung do not feel much faith in "pushing" any format standard.

What they want is market share, revenues, and profits. They moved into DVD-RAM/-RW world since it was relatively easy for them to do so instead of pioneering the newer DVD+RW world. Yet.

If you know the history of CD-ROM and CD-RW worlds, close to 100 percent of Korean and Taiwanese companies began investment in them only AFTER the Japanese and European counterparts already built the market base so that they can safely produce and sell their drives and media in ever-increasing quantity.

The two conglomerates have enough money to invest in the DVD+R/+RW in addition to DVD-R/-RW/-RAM. What's missing is the existing market base. Only a few million DVD+R/+RW drives by the end of 2002 while Rioch, HP, Dell, Philips, Sony, and many others are producing most of those.

LG and Samsung have been working closely with various Japanese, US, and European companies on DVD writable technologies since late 1990s. From all I hear, both of them will also produce DVD+R writers.

Why are Benq and AOpen into DVD+R/+RW and not DVD-RW? Because they have NEVER invested too much in DVD-RAM/-RW. They have nothing to lose by going direct to DVD+RW but since they have limited very resources, they are not willing to produce both standard-based drives. It's also quite different with Philips, Ricoh, and Sony because they will receive license fee from every concerned manufacturer around the world throughout the decade. Sony is a typical case supporting both DVD-RW and DVD+RW. Sony already has the technology, money, reputation, experiences, etc. It can afford to distribute resources on both standards. Safer strategy. Yamaha and Plextor are quite small compared to Sony and Samsung. They'll be more cautious and conservative.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[Kennyshin]

So what is your point Kenny?

You don't need to pretend not to get what my point is.

I'll make it in one sentence:

LG and Samsung first developed and produced DVD-RAM because it was the first DVD writer format, they went on to DVD-RW next because it was the second one, and now they ARE into DVD+RW - this is not on any press release I've seen in English but it is as true as anything I can say - because this newer format was made only very recently available with the introduction of DVD+R.

Wake up. LG will not ever begin to produce DVD+RW drives unless it's obvious that it will become a market where it can sell more than 10 to 20 million units a year.

Oh, I missed one more drive format: DVD "Multi" which should be labeled as the 3rd. (So, DVD+RW is the 4th.)

[Eug]

So what is your point Kenny?

You don't need to pretend not to get what my point is.

I'll make it in one sentence:

LG and Samsung first developed and produced DVD-RAM because it was the first DVD writer format, they went on to DVD-RW next because it was the second one, and now they ARE into DVD+RW - this is not on any press release I've seen in English but it is as true as anything I can say - because this newer format was made only very recently available with the introduction of DVD+R.

Wake up. LG will not ever begin to produce DVD+RW drives unless it's obvious that it will become a market where it can sell more than 10 to 20 million units a year.

Oh, I missed one more drive format: DVD "Multi" which should be labeled as the 3rd. (So, DVD+RW is the 4th.)

LG and friends just produce what makes them money. If the DVD+RW statement is true they've decided they'll make some money with DVD+RW. They'll also make some money with DVD-RW. And LG seems to be counting on it, with its intention to sell a big load of DVD-RAM/DVD-RW/DVD-R drives.

There's no denying that DVD+RW could sell a lot of units. However, it's also no surprise that LG is producing the DVD-RAM combo drive. Both would likely make them money.

[Kennyshin]

So what is your point Kenny?

You don't need to pretend not to get what my point is.

I'll make it in one sentence:

LG and Samsung first developed and produced DVD-RAM because it was the first DVD writer format, they went on to DVD-RW next because it was the second one, and now they ARE into DVD+RW - this is not on any press release I've seen in English but it is as true as anything I can say - because this newer format was made only very recently available with the introduction of DVD+R.

Wake up. LG will not ever begin to produce DVD+RW drives unless it's obvious that it will become a market where it can sell more than 10 to 20 million units a year.

Oh, I missed one more drive format: DVD "Multi" which should be labeled as the 3rd. (So, DVD+RW is the 4th.)

LG and friends just produce what makes them money. If the DVD+RW statement is true they've decided they'll make some money with DVD+RW. They'll also make some money with DVD-RW. And LG seems to be counting on it, with its intention to sell a big load of DVD-RAM/DVD-RW/DVD-R drives.

There's no denying that DVD+RW could sell a lot of units. However, it's also no surprise that LG is producing the DVD-RAM combo drive. Both would likely make them money.

Maybe you forgot the fact both LG and Samsung started investment in DVD-RAM and DVD-RW BEFORE the first DVD+RW drive appeared in the second half of 2001.

It is not that they decided to move into DVD-RW abruptly, but they are just doing what Panasonic has been doing and they also want to go into DVD+RW space as well which is the difference from Panasonic.

[Kennyshin]

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=1251&start=0

WinHEC 2002 Session Presentations

Desktop DVD Recording and DVD+RW with Windows

http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/WHP/1.0/WXP/EN-US/WH02_CS01.exe

Implementation Options for Serial ATA

http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/WHP/1.0/WXP/EN-US/WH02_CS02.exe

The Next Generation of Optical Storage

http://download.microsoft.com/download/whistler/WHP/1.0/WXP/EN-US/WH02_CS03.exe.

Quote:

DVD+MRWThe convergence of Mt. Rainier and DVD writing

All the ease of Mt. Rainier
All the space of a DVD
All in one drive
A target for the optical storage industry to work toward

Call To Action

Design for the end user¡¯s ease
Use the MMCtest to ensure compatibility with Windows on MMC compliance
cdmmctst@microsoft.com
Support and integrate new technologies, Head for the DVD+MRW drive ideal
Test interoperability of your burning applications
Respond to current roadmap
optissue@microsoft.com

[Kennyshin]

Discussion threads related to Microsoft support of DVD+RW and DVD+MRW

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/topic.cgi?forum=2&topic=939

http://www.dvdplusrw.org/cgi/ikonboard/post.cgi?action=reply&forum=2&topic=1251

http://forum.vcdhelp.com/viewtopic.php?p=255606#255606

[Eug]

So what is your point Kenny?

You don't need to pretend not to get what my point is.

I'll make it in one sentence:

LG and Samsung first developed and produced DVD-RAM because it was the first DVD writer format, they went on to DVD-RW next because it was the second one, and now they ARE into DVD+RW - this is not on any press release I've seen in English but it is as true as anything I can say - because this newer format was made only very recently available with the introduction of DVD+R.

Wake up. LG will not ever begin to produce DVD+RW drives unless it's obvious that it will become a market where it can sell more than 10 to 20 million units a year.

Oh, I missed one more drive format: DVD "Multi" which should be labeled as the 3rd. (So, DVD+RW is the 4th.)

LG will make whatever makes them money. ie. They're not going to exclude anything. Nothing wrong with that. So far it's pretty much vapourware though for LG and +RW, but I'm sure +RW LG drives will appear eventually.

Anyways, DVD Multi is not a format. It's a certification process that states the drive is compatible with DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, and DVD-R (and others for standalone players).

[Kennyshin]

DVD Multi is not a valid new format for some people including myself. LG seems to have been thinking it otherwise though.

Anyway, I CANNOT yet find the "Multi" drive even in Seoul. I don't know what's happening. Maybe there will be still other drives at the June Computex in Taiwan.

[Eug]

DVD Multi is not a valid new format for some people including myself. LG seems to have been thinking it otherwise though.

Anyway, I CANNOT yet find the "Multi" drive even in Seoul. I don't know what's happening. Maybe there will be still other drives at the June Computex in Taiwan.

I wonder if companies are bothering to get the certification, or if the certification is just slow. I have what is essentially a DVD Multi Read drive, the Toshiba M1612 DVD-ROM. (Cost me ~US$50.)

The M1612 reads DVD-RAM, DVD-RW, and DVD-R, but does not have the DVD Multi logo for some reason.

Anyways, like I said, DVD Multi is not a format, but really a certification for compatibility with a group of formats.

[PhilipL]

Withdrawn

[Kennyshin]

Hi Kenny

I think Samsung (which also partners LG in some optical areas) are pretty much going the route of the DVD Forum, and it will have a lot to do with politics as their executive advisor Mr Bon-Guk Koo has been re-elected Chairman of the RDVDC (Recordable DVD Council that promote DVD Forum formats.) If he wasn't pro the DVD Forum formats than I would suggest he would not have been re-elected. I doubt he is even allowed to utter the words +RW

Regards

Philip

Well, let's see.

[andrewb758]

Well, this heated (to put it nicely) discussion and what seems to be a rather fragmented market is the reason that I will stay out of the DVD writing market for some time to come. Seems to me that none of the formats are well supported by the Windows OS at this time.

BTW, just because Microsoft backed DVD+RW really is not a cause for this furor. Personally, I think that Microsoft could back anything and it would cause you people and people like you to rant fifty times over about Microsoft's plans for world domination using whatever Microsoft's latest favorite technology was. Give it a break. The greatest thing about America (that is where Microsoft is based, ya know) is that it operates on a free market economy. If the DVD "minus" formats are already well-entrenched, like some of you say, then there probably isn't much Microsoft can do as far as changing it over.

However, I believe that the DVD writing market is highly fragmented and we see ourselves in the middle of format wars that are similar to, but not the same, as the videocassette wars of the late seventies and early eighties. The consumer's favorite will win, as did VHS, as will whatever the consumer's favorite is.

P.S. keep in mind this may not be your favorite, as most of you are part of a specialized market segment of people who are more proficient about computers than the masses. Ya might call yourself geeks. [/b]

[Eug]

Well, this heated (to put it nicely) discussion and what seems to be a rather fragmented market is the reason that I will stay out of the DVD writing market for some time to come. Seems to me that none of the formats are well supported by the Windows OS at this time.

BTW, just because Microsoft backed DVD+RW really is not a cause for this furor. Personally, I think that Microsoft could back anything and it would cause you people and people like you to rant fifty times over about Microsoft's plans for world domination using whatever Microsoft's latest favorite technology was. Give it a break. The greatest thing about America (that is where Microsoft is based, ya know) is that it operates on a free market economy. If the DVD "minus" formats are already well-entrenched, like some of you say, then there probably isn't much Microsoft can do as far as changing it over.

However, I believe that the DVD writing market is highly fragmented and we see ourselves in the middle of format wars that are similar to, but not the same, as the videocassette wars of the late seventies and early eighties. The consumer's favorite will win, as did VHS, as will whatever the consumer's favorite is.

P.S. keep in mind this may not be your favorite, as most of you are part of a specialized market segment of people who are more proficient about computers than the masses. Ya might call yourself geeks. [/b]

Yeah, like you said, it's not the same thing as beta vs. VHS. I'd just like to reiterate that if you make DVD+R or DVD-R discs that are compatible with your DVD-ROM drives or DVD players, regardless of who "wins" the discs will still work.

As for Microsoft backing, I will also point out that Windows already has OS level support for DVD-RAM. As you insinuated, this doesn't mean that DVD-RAM is about to suddenly take over though.

In the end, there's nothing wrong with waiting if you can. However, many people need to be able to burn DVD-R/+R/-RAM, or whatever, so I don't think there's anything inherently wrong with buying now either.