How to get around timecode when capturing S-VHS?

[SWriverstone]

Hi all—I do plan to search existing threads on this forum for an answer to my question, but that might take a while (so apologies if the answer is out there somewhere and I haven't found it yet!).

I have some valuable interviews I shot decades ago (in 1993) on S-VHS tape. I'm pretty sure I shot them with a high-end, 3-chip S-VHS camera (I think it was a JVC GY-27).

Flash forward to today, and I have a (now discontinued) Ion VCR 2 PC VHS player with USB output for capturing analog video to disk. I didn't think the Ion deck would play S-VHS video, but it does. (Apparently many more modern VHS decks will also play S-VHS tapes?)

Here's my problem: there is timecode recorded on one of the audio channels, and when played on the Ion deck, the recorded audio is mixed with the timecode audio, which of course renders the recorded audio useless. (I confirmed the timecode wasn't on one channel with recorded audio on the other by opening a captured clip in Adobe Premiere Pro and Audition and looking at the waveforms.)

It's been so long that I can't remember my S-VHS basics: did it have more than 2 channels of audio? Is it possible that the timecode is on a separate channel than the recorded audio and I just need to find a deck that separates/outputs the non-timecode audio channels? (I'm guessing I can't do it with the Ion deck as there are no granular controls or settings for audio channels.)

Thanks!
Scott

[DB83]

I may be wide of the mark here but.....

1. A time-code is a video signal not an audio one.
2. If it recorded on a separate, readable, channel and not burnt-in to the video, it is the player that would remove it at playback.
3. Since your player is not a bespoke s-vhs deck, I doubt if it has the function to remove that at playback

[aedipuss]

afaik svhs only had 2 ch. either normal stereo or hifi stereo. if it's only on one side, left or right, delete that side and make it mono, or copy the good channel and make it dual mono(2 ch.)

[filmboss80]

Back in the '90s, some industrial/"pro-sumer" S-VHS models recorded timecode in the vertical interval blacking signal (leaving stereo linear and hi-fi audio tracks free for sound), while other models recorded it on a linear audio track. You seem to have a tape shot with the latter. Does your playback deck not have split RCA audio outputs in the rear? You could just isolate the "good" audio that way.

[Cornucopia]

aedipuss & filmboss80 are correct: whether VHS or SVHS, the format only had 2 channel audio. You could use the 2 linear channels and/or the 2 HiFi channels, but that never gave you 4 total channels. If you used both sets, you would just be ~duplicating your signals (quality differences aside).

And while decks could be set up to record VITC (vertical interval TC, on the video track), the majority of those decks didn't have that capability built-in, and if you didn't have a VITC inserter box in-line, you would have HAD to use LTC (longitudinal/linear TC, utilizing/overtaking one of the 2 audio tracks). It might be possible that you merged audio of say ch2 with the LTC (although that's not good - it has a harder time resolving the correct TC), but it could also be LEAKAGE (crosstalk of one track into the other). That was a common occurrence in those days. The big problem with that was not the leakage of audio into the TC, but the leakage of the TC into the (desired) audio channel. Hi-fi tracks greatly improved crosstalk rejection, but didn't totally eliminate it. That could only occur if digital tracks were used (not possible with standard VHS/SVHS).

Best thing you can do is live with the audio as a mono track (or duplicated into dual-mono), or find a separate clean audio from some other source and do a sync+replace. But if this was something live (not just pre-recorded music, like a music video, or a pre-recorded presentation for slide-show), you would only have that 1st choice.

Scott

[smrpix]

If the ion is not putting out a stereo signal, and none of the online literature I can find specifically says it does, then that is where the two channels are being combined. Conventionally, VHS audio timecode is on a separate channel from the "normal" audio. (usually ch 2)

[Brad]

So do these tapes have Hi-Fi audio or not?

Aren't all players that don't specifically support linear stereo going to send a combined dual-mono signal over both RCA outputs? They don't output stereo.

Apparently many more modern VHS decks will also play S-VHS tapes?

S-VHS Quasi-Playback can only give you VHS quality. If these are recordings you care about, you should use an actual S-VHS machine to play them back.

[orsetto]

..

[orsetto]

The "ION VCR2 PC" was a notorious piece of crap that barely worked: why on earth would you use it to digitize "valuable interviews" that you personally shot on a 3-chip SVHS pro camcorder? The results would likely be pitiful even without this audio problem, unless you happen to be the lucky 1 out of 100 owners that got a functional unit. But if you are happy with the video results you're getting so far, I won't argue.

The issue you're having with "timecode" interfering with the audio is caused by an incompatibility in the VCR2PC VHS audio mechanics. The VCR portion is so cheaply made that it doesn't include the long-standard HiFi audio system- it only has a simple monophonic audio head. Your tapes were recorded or edited on a pro/semipro VCR which may have put alternate (better) audio on the HiFi tracks that your ION can't play. Before proceeding further, you need to try one of your tapes in any random, garden-variety VCR that has the "4-Head VHS HiFi" logo on its front (pretty much any VCR made since 1994). If the tape plays normally, without audio interference from the "time code", you have an easy solution available: just connect the line outputs of this other VCR to the line inputs of the ION unit. The HiFi VCR usually has an audio select button that cycles thru the linear audio (what your ION is reading), HiFi L+R Stereo, HiFi L ch only, HiFi R ch only, or a mix of both HiFi and Linear (usually sounds terrible). If you cycle all these audio options, one will sound better than what you currently get from the ION's built-in vcr.

Most likely, your tapes do have a clean HiFi track, and you can easily work around the issue by hooking up an ordinary external HiFi VCR to the ION, using the ION to pass the signal to your PC. It would have been extremely unusual for an SVHS tape to contain just the linear audio tracks with no HiFi alternative tracks. To get true SVHS-quality video output, you would need an SVHS HiFi vcr (many later non-SVHS vcrs will play SVHS tapes, but at lower video quality).

[Cornucopia]

I don't know why you'd think the linear track would have ANYTHING different than the Hi-fi track. In all my years of working with VHS (since the format came out), I have never seen a VCR that allowed the equivalent of 4 tracks (separate stereo linear + stereo HiFi), which is what you are suggesting. And I'm talking about the best Broadcast Pro Digital S-VHS editing decks ($5-10k new) with built-in timecode, genlock, TBC & the works. If you can name a deck that can (with literature to back it up), I'd be willing to believe you. Otherwise, what you're suggesting isn't truly feasible.

Most likely, as I already said, those tapes have Ch1 audio+Ch2 LTC, with a small amount of crosstalk/leakage between the 2. As I have firsthand witnessed & worked with hundreds of times.

I would agree with you, however, that the ION deck is not even close to being worthy to this task.

Scott

[NJRoadfan]

I don't know why you'd think the linear track would have ANYTHING different than the Hi-fi track. In all my years of working with VHS (since the format came out), I have never seen a VCR that allowed the equivalent of 4 tracks (separate stereo linear + stereo HiFi), which is what you are suggesting. And I'm talking about the best Broadcast Pro Digital S-VHS editing decks ($5-10k new) with built-in timecode, genlock, TBC & the works. If you can name a deck that can (with literature to back it up), I'd be willing to believe you. Otherwise, what you're suggesting isn't truly feasible.

The Panasonic AG-DS555 writes both Hi-Fi and dual linear audio tracks. It also does insert editing of the linear audio tracks. Way back when I did work for a local access station with VHS editors, we ran into a problem with edited linear audio not playing on the station. Turns out the new playback deck was playing the Hi-Fi tracks which still had the original audio on them.

There were also two JVC decks that did insert editing of Hi-Fi tracks, the HR-S10000U and BR-S378U. It really didn't work well, so the feature was dropped from future decks.

[Cornucopia]

That's different, as linear tracks can be "overdubbed" after the fact. HiFi tracks, are always locked to picture (by nature of them using the same rotating head as the video). I'm not surprised at attempts at insert editing being dropped: they layout of hifi and video tracks leaves no margin for error - and in fact does somewhat overlap - and it is only the difference in orientation azimuth that allows them to be separated. That certainly isn't enough to confidently apply insert edits and their accompanying degradation.

This linear kind of overdubbing requires 2 passes. The linear tracks, if they get overdubbed will likely not have any sync relationship (unless you've got a full-blown TCplayback+TCrecord+Genlock+EditController system). I've worked with an AG-DS555 in just such a setup.

So, that is "the exception that proves the rule". Plus, the class of decks that were able to do that is not even close to the class of decks orsetto was talking about and the OP has said nothing that would hint that his tapes were created in that manner.

Scott

[smrpix]

OP has said nothing that would hint that his tapes were created in that manner.

Agreed. OP has hinted these are his original source tapes, so any decent stereo S-VHS (or even S-VHS compatible) deck should be able to separate the channels adequately. The issue is the ION.

[NJRoadfan]

If they are unedited and they have Hi-Fi audio tracks, any decent Hi-Fi VHS deck will do for playback of clean audio. Its amazing how lousy that ION deck is, even the mediocre DVD/VHS combos have Hi-Fi audio playback.

This linear kind of overdubbing requires 2 passes. The linear tracks, if they get overdubbed will likely not have any sync relationship (unless you've got a full-blown TCplayback+TCrecord+Genlock+EditController system). I've worked with an AG-DS555 in just such a setup.

Yup, the setup was 2x AG-DS545 feeders (for A-B roll editing), an AG-DS555 recorder, an AG-A850 edit controller, and a WJ-MX50 mixer to make things pretty. Quite a bit of coin in 1997. We usually didn't overdub audio though, just outright inserted new audio.

[orsetto]

I don't know why you'd think the linear track would have ANYTHING different than the Hi-fi track. In all my years of working with VHS (since the format came out), I have never seen a VCR that allowed the equivalent of 4 tracks (separate stereo linear + stereo HiFi), which is what you are suggesting.

Yes, you're right: I'll go back and correct my earlier post. I own several Panasonic AG5710s, and once owned a couple of JVC SR-S365Us. I could have sworn these "prosumer" SVHS HiFi models used a kluge method of retrofitting pro CTL timecode functionality via the stationary audio head, which interfered with or supplanted the linear audio when activated. But upon re-checking my AG5710 manual, it seems I was quite wrong: the RS-232C CTL timecode works in the usual way and is not kluged with the linear audio head. My primary suggestion that the OP try to use an external HiFi vcr patched thru the ION still stands, as those tracks will play cleaner and he should be able to isolate the better of the L or R HiFi tracks. The ION device has only a mono linear audio head that is clearly not a good match for these tapes.

[2Bdecided]

I'm sure the OP just has normal audio on one Hi-Fi stereo channel (e.g. L), and timecode audio on the other (e.g. R). they just need to capture in stereo and copy the L channel to the R. Job done.


However, if can be more complicated...

I've had a few VHS and S-VHS Panasonic VCRs that will let you treat the Hi-Fi stereo tracks and the linear mono track separately. I've insert-edited video with new audio into the Hi-Fi stereo tracks, leaving the mono untouched. I've replaced the mono, leaving the stereo untouched. These were decent consumer VCRs, not professional equipment. They were from the first few years of NICAM stereo broadcasting in the UK.

On playback, you can choose from five different output possibilities: stereo L+R (default), L on both channels, R on both channels, linear mono on both channels, stereo L+R mixed with linear mono on both channels. Later and lesser decks don't have these options.

Cheers,
David.