7500 AIW with MMC 7.6 to (S)VCD question

[crgnjul]

I am a newbie to this, but have searched these forums and read the How To's already.
I just got a ATI Radeon 7500 AIW. What I want to do is capture 60 minute TV shows and burn them to 1 CD as VCD or SVCD. The VCD preset in MMC 7.6 just plain sucks. I have tried the "how to" listed here, but that was written for 7.1 and there must be a setting change, because Nero balks at it as being non compliant. Burning it anyway does not give me video. Using TMPGEnc to convert it fixed the problem, but the quality was real low. So, my question is: What is the best way for me to get a 60 minute TV show on 1 CD as VCD or SVCD.
I have been using DVD2SVCD for a couple months now and LOVE it. It is nice and easy and the bitrate tab shows that I can get SVCD of 60 minutes on 1 CD. Is there any way to capture with MMC and then use DVD2SVCD to convert it to cue/bin files? It is using CCE for the encoding, so I guess I can try and use that manually, but have not figured out how yet. Is there an AVI2SVCD or something that is similar to DVD2SVCD? Disk space is not an issue for me. Time is, but I could build another PC to make that a non issue as well.
If my best bet is to use the "DVD" preset in MMC (about 2.6 gig for 1 hour) and then use TMPGEnc or CCE to encode to MPEG2, does anyone have a good template they are using for this exact thing? I'm sure I can't be the only one using MMC 7.6 for this exact thing.
Thanks for any and all help.
Craig

[diveboy]

try Stinky's MMCREGTOOl.

it's got some preset profiles for VCD/SVCD both PAL & NTSC.

I've used his profiles to make a svcd and vcd with really good quality, to the point that I've gotten a 1:12:00 live show down to a VCD in very good quality. will post a sample if you want.

I use ATI mmc 7.6 to capture it, DVD2AVI to setup the project, tmpgenc to encode it and edit it and NERO to burn it.

[energy80s]

I use ATI MMC 7.6 for capturing.

Basically I cap in MPEG1, I-Frame Only @ 8mbps 720x576 PAL. I then use VirtualBub to "top & tail" it and frameserve it to TMPGenc where I encode it to SVCD. Theb quality is very good. I am about to experiment with capping in AVI format to see if it will make much of a difference, althought the trade off in file size may not be worth it. I am not happy with standard VCD quality so have been buring in SVCD format, however I keep reading here about the CVCD standard and would like to try that as it seems to be a "halfway house" between VCD and SVCD.

[Zogg]

energy80s:

What is the advantage to capping in MPEG1 versus MPEG2?

I have seen other people that were capping I-Frame only, although at a higher bitrate, but they were doing MPEG2. Just curious if you tried both and got better results with MPEG1.

[crgnjul]

diveboy,
When you use MMC 7.6 to capture, what preset do you use? If you use a custom capture, can you give me the specs so I can recreate it?

energy80s,
What does "top & tail" mean? How long does your encoding take using TMPGenc? I assume you are using a template, can you tell me which one?

Thanks for the help.

[energy80s]

The reason I cap to MPEG1 is that nothing much recognises MPEG2 directly! And at that bitrate there shouldn't be any real difference between the two. Certainly the high bitrate MPEG1 caps I get are as good as the original TV picture. The main advantage of MPEG 2 is the ability to add additional soundtracks and subtitles, etc. - not necessary for 2 channel audio and PAL TV pictures.

Oh and "topping and tailing" refers to cutting the beginning and end of a capture to just allow the programme to be encoded and nothing else. I would start the capture a few seconds before the programme starts and end it a few seconds after it finishes. You can also cut out commercial breaks this way, and keep all the audio in sync. This keeps your captures frame perfect (well, as perfect as your local TV station transmits them!)

[energy80s]

As for encoding times, well ....

I use an AMD 1600XP processor (although I think its only clocked to 1400) and a 23 minutes episode of Home Improvement takes 2hrs 40 mins to encode as a 2 pass VBR SVCD or 1hr 15mins as a VCD - both using the standard TMPGenc PAL templates.

[crgnjul]

You can use VirtualBub to cut out commercials? COOL! I was planning on using Adobe Premier once I got the quality settings figured out.
Encoding times are going to kill me I guess I need to try one as a DVD and one as a SVCD and see the quality differences. With the standard templates (I will be using NTSC rather than PAL, but I assume they should be close to the same file size?) can you get an hour show on 1 CD?

[Stinky]

The reason I cap to MPEG1 is that nothing much recognises MPEG2 directly!

if you grab the mpeg-2 codec from my site you can drag mpeg-2 files into TMPGEnc - just wanted to let you know

I do essentially what you do - I capture to high bitrate MPEG-2 at the 'hyper-SVCD' setting in my tool (bitrate around 3.5) and then I convert it to VCD in TMPGEnc

as strange as it may sound my SLOW computer does not drop any frames capturing MPEG-2 480x480 at that 'hyper' SVCD setting but I can't get MPEG-1 above 352x240 without dropping frames (go figure)

I get good results because the source is 480x480 and converting it to 352x240 makes is just a bit sharper than starting at 352x240 (though I hear 352x480 works good also but my computer drops frames on that resolution)

[crgnjul]

Thanks Stinky. I did have your tool installed already, but had not played with it much. I've setup Enterprise to use your Hyper-SVCD (although it says it is 352x240, so I did go back and change that to 480x480). Do you have a template you use with TMPGEnc?
Craig

[Stinky]

Craig:

download the most recent version of my tool and then load the 'hyper-svcd' preset - then ignore what MMC reports the resolution as - you will see that the results are 480x480 -- you could even set it to MPEG-1 ... though I've never tried that yet -- don't change it to 480x480 manually that defeats the purpose of loading up the PreSet ... it's a custom setting.

I use the default NTSC VCD template in TMPGEnc -- that works fine for me -- I use the source range feature to edit out the commercial then I combine all the parts with VCDCutter -- if you use MPEG-1 you can edit the commercials out with VirtuaDub and don't need to combine any files -- it's just what ever system you get used to :-)

[crgnjul]

Thanks a bunch. I saw this message after Enterprise started, so I did change the resolution in MMC I will try another show after this one.

Will I get better quality if I record MPEG-1 or MPEG-2? I do like the idea of not having to combine parts, but I thought MPEG-2 would give me better quality.
Craig

[Stinky]

MPEG-1 is more flexible and MPEG-2 is supposed to give some a better quality but if you jack up the bitrate (and maybe the resolution) prior to cutting commercials and converting I'm pretty sure you wouldn't notice a difference.

I only use MPEG-2 because for some odd reason I don't drop frames with it on my PC even though MPEG-2 is more CPU intensive.

Again MPEG-1 is MUCH easier to deal with - capture - load into VirtualDub - remove commercials - frameserve to TMPGEnc - done!

[Nelson37]

I have similar problem with mpeg-1 framedrops (since changing to XP and MMC 7.5) although w/mmc 7.6 mpeg-2, 720x480, bitrate 10,000, I-frame only all is beautiful! Real-time SVCD is 90% OK but sometimes pixelates MASSIVELY, seemingly on a random basis.

Apparently DVD2SVCD will work if you have a generic IFO matching your film characteristics, then rename your MPG to IFO-Filename with a VOB extension - haven't tried this yet. (also doesn't allow for edits)

There's got to be a better way but here's what I use -
TMPGenc - MPEG Tools - Demultiplex - select video stream.
FLASKmpeg - save audio as WAV file
DVD2AVI - video stream from TMPGenc - save project
AVISYNTH - mpeg2dec.dll - d2v project file - IVTC - resize - add borders
I crop the overscan area on capture
VDUB - open AVISYNTH script and WAV file, edit commercials, frameserve using DIRECT STREAM COPY - if I need smoothing I save as HUFFY compressed avi, then open and frameserve that
CCE- open VDR file and encode - 4-pass, 500 MIN, 1500 to 2400 AVG, 3000 max
TMPGenc (TooLame) - open VDR file and encode Audio Only
Apply Pulldown.exe, remux and split w/BBMpeg, VCDImager to make bin/cue, Nero to burn

Audio synch excellent, FF/RW works, image quality excellent - and yes I'm trying to use as many programs as possible! I'v even done interactive menus, gotten as much as 60+ minutes on a SVCD.

This process evolved over many months and LOTS of trial and error. Next project is automating and streamlining process, anybody got any ideas?

[Stinky]

There's got to be a better way but here's what I use -

Nelson thats a very comlex way of doing it -- and probably not the best suggestion for a new user.

You can open the MPEG-2 in TMPGEnc -- crop it there and then convert if you wanted to (if you install the mpeg-2 codec from my web site) - that would work also - TMPGEnc 2-pass is pretty good.

my captues aren't good enough to send to CCE

[energy80s]

Stinky, does your MPEG2 tool allow VirtualDub to import MEG2 files directly (just like MPEG1) as this is where I do my edits, etc. The ability to import MPEG2 into TMPGenc is irrelevant to me.

[Stinky]

Stinky, does your MPEG2 tool allow VirtualDub to import MEG2 files directly (just like MPEG1) as this is where I do my edits, etc. The ability to import MPEG2 into TMPGenc is irrelevant to me.

nope - it's a codec for mpeg-2 and it doesnt work for VirtualDub -- only helps you open mpeg-2 files in MS Media Player and TMPGEnc

you can do your edits in TMPGEnc -- use the source/range option - set up your conversion in 'parts' then create a batch and join the results -- thats what I usually do

[crgnjul]

Once again, I want to thank everyone for their imput. I tried using the "DVD" preset last night and then used TMPGenc to encode it using the standard SVCD template. Of course I forgot to change the bitrate, so the file was 1.26Gig. I have it encoding with a bitrate of 1580 right now and will check it when I get home.

I have also read on another forum about what Nelson was saying with DVD2SVCD and I think this might be the best solution for me if I can get an IFO file created. All my captures will be the same resolution and aspect ratio once I get it going, so I should be able to create 1 IFO file and then just keep using it over and over again. I don't mind having commercials in there, so edits is not really a factor for me. Now if I can just figure out how to create an IFO file for use with standard US TV signals If anyone has one, please pass it along.
Craig

[Nelson37]

CRGNJUL - ditto on the IFO, I know you can start a DVD rip and get one that way, and there is a program called IFOedit which I assume would allow you to modify it? I just haven't got around to it.

STINKY - complex is right, pain in the ass maybe better. This evolved after I kept hitting brick walls, such as source range in TMPGenc kept locking up, and I like VDUB for edit, which requires a WAV for sound, etc.
It does give near-perfect results though, and thanks to you for your tool which led me to cropping the overscan area!

[Stinky]

...thanks to you for your tool which led me to cropping the overscan area!

cool - glad your getting use out of it - what percentage do you crop? .10 ? or less?

[crgnjul]

Nelson - I just grabbed the IFO off of the DVD Frantic since it was the first one I found that was at a 4:3 ratio. I did open the IFO in ifoedit, but did not change anything in it as the author of DVD2SVCD says to just use an IFO with the correct frame rate. Of course I'm not sure what the framerate for US TV is suppose to be. Frantic was set at 30fps. I have DVD2SVCD running now and will let you know how it turns out. If someone knows for sure what the framerate for US TV is, please let me know so that I can make any changes that are needed.

Craig

[Nelson37]

Stinky - I used .10 for standard, upped to .20 vertical for letterbox stuff, (sometimes .25 but for some that went too far) although the degree of letterboxing varies so it didn't always match, but cropping was really significant in improving quality.

Crgnjul - US TV is 30 FPS (29.97), sometimes they will refer to fields and double it. Let us know how that turns out!

[crgnjul]

Sorry for the delay. My first trial looks better than the VCD template in MMC, but not much. Well, action on the screen looks good, but if there is no movement on part of the screen, that section looks terrible. Almost like a HIGHLY compressed JPG. Again, this was using the DVD template in MMC. What I did this morning, was record another hour of TV, but used a custom template in MMC. It is the DVD template, but using I frames only. It is encoding now, I will post a follow up when it gets done.
Craig

[energy80s]

Set up a custom MPEG1 template at 8mbps with 720x567 frame size and try capping with that. Set the motion search to 100% and cap in I Frames only. Then compare it to the original source. That should be good enough for you to convert to VCD from. I know it works for me!

[crgnjul]

The highest resolution I can do is 720x480. How are you getting 720x567?

The MPEG2 one I did today is pretty good quality. It is better than my ReplayTV at high quality, but not as good as the original signal. I did see some "choppiness" for lack of a better term. I did another recording and it had 3% dropped frames, so I assume the show I burned to SVCD was about the same and that would explain the "choppiness" that I saw. It was not bad, just every 10 seconds or so it would look funny.

Should I try bumping the P frame up to 1 or something?

Craig

[Stinky]

The highest resolution I can do is 720x480. How are you getting 720x567?

if you tinker around with the expert settings on my tool it goes as high as 720x1152 for PAL :-)

just set the Resolution to 720x576 then make sure horizontal scaling and vertical scaling is off and change your RtInterval to 200000

the result will be 720x1152 ... now thats the highest you can go! :-)

for NTSC do the same and you will get 720x960!

[crgnjul]

I actually thought about using your tool again, but I figured if I am getting dropped frames at 720x480 I would get even more at 720x960 right?

Craig

[Stinky]

I actually thought about using your tool again, but I figured if I am getting dropped frames at 720x480 I would get even more at 720x960 right?

yes you probably would - dropped frames depends on your Motion Estimate settings (all 3 of them ) and bitrate.

if your doing ok at 720x480 and would like to try a 'hyper' setting load it up in my tool and lower your RtInerval - that should jump you to 960 without extra stress on your cpu -- you might get good results that way.

[oldfart13]

Some very good tips in this post. I'm trying to cap to SVCD specs using an AIW 128 16 Meg AGP. Using MMC 7.6 and with everything tuned up (DMA on, ATA 100 controller, even the clock turned off) I can't do better than 480 X 480 with a CBR or VBR under 5 MBs. Motion control is set to 99 or 100, with I frames only. Nero says the file is non compliant NTSC and the burned disc won't play on my Apex 600AD. It plays with out of sync sound and lots of grain and fuzzy picture in the VCD player in MMC 7.6. I'll try the reg tool for the SVCD template and see what happens. One thing though, most of the people using the Dazzle DVC-II are using VBR above 6 MBs and the ADS DVD Solution CBR at 5 MBs and capping to MPEG 2. Why are you using ultra low bitrates and capping to MPEG 1? Wouldn't this result in a horrible picture on a TV with a screen larger than 27 inches? I've DLed some caps of Enterprise in SVCD format that look superb on larger TVs. Perhaps I'll have to ask the cappers what equipment they are using and what the settings are. I'm trying to cap from two sources:

1) Old prerecorded videotapes (they aren't coming out on DVD any time soon, so I want to cap them and save them to SVCD and sell the originals). I've tried the reg tool at Stinky's site but Macrovision is still there.

2)Video recorded to the Hard Drive on my Dishnetwork/Echostar PVR.

I'm trying to get the highest quality caps I can. Any more settings/pointers greatly appreciated.

Pentium III 1 GHz
30 Gig Maxtor 7200rpm
Asus CUSL-2 motherboard
512 Meg SDRAM
ATI All In Wonder 128 16 Meg AGP
Creative Soundblaster 512 PCI

[Sulik]

Your audio sync is probably due to the too high bitrate for SVCD.
Also, never do I-frame only if you have enough CPU to do IBP or IBBP (P=5,B=1 or P=4,B=2).
IBBP with 0% ME will look way better than I-frame only and 100% ME.
You can get pretty good quality using 480x480 IBBP @ 3Mbps.