Capturing sound for video

[greypilgrim]

My wife and are the founders of a non-profit new church development. The NCD I'm part of has produced (in reality, I've been producer, director, butcher, baker and candlestick maker) a few videos as part of our outreach. (You can see the efforts on our YouTube Channel, https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCvqpKaE7-9EFW1Hes2dcxYA.) I am confident that they won't win any awards, but I think the quality has been above the worst that one will see on YouTube. Still, I'd like to improve the quality.

I am of the opinion that the best bang for the limited dollars we have is to invest in some audio equipment. The most recent videos used our smartphones (HTC One X+) as the mic and recorder, with the captured sound processed in Audacity. After research, I have come to a tentative decision to buy a Zoom H1 and a Giant Squid lav mic (or two, but which is the question to hand).

The largest number of the vids we've done have been with a single person on camera at one time. For that, the Zoom H1 and a Giant Squid mono lav mic would work well to capture the video. The two vids which have had more than one person on camera at one time are exceptions, so I am not concerned about that right now. However, since there are two co-Founding pastors (my wife is the other), we'd like to begin creating vids where the two of us are on cam at the same time.

One suggestion I received is to buy the Giant Squid stereo lav mic (http://www.giantsquidaudiolab.com/gs/gs-cardioidstereo.html), which has two mic heads feeding into a single connector. That got me to thinking that it a more flexible setup would be to buy two Giant Squid mono mics (that costs but US$5 more), so long as I can use an adapter to plug the two lav mics into the H1 so that each mic records on one of the two stereo channels. Then I can split the channels in post.

My research (including reading a thread on this forum, which is what first brought me here) has led me to believe that this is possible if I use a connector like http://www.amazon.com/HOSA-STEREO-3-5mm-PHONE-1-RING/dp/B000068O5H. The one caveat that has been shared is that if the two talents have greatly differing voice levels, there might be a need for an in-line volume control, which this setup doesn't have.

My thought is that this setup also gives me flexibility for future growth. When money is available, the purchase of a second digital recorder would allow the two mono mics to be rigged individually, or with the purchase of a second connector and another lav mic to mic four talents.

So what advice, suggestions, correction can you give to me?

[aedipuss]

if you are going to use more than one mic i would get a mixer to level the audio. for 50 or so you can get one with level lights.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=audio+m...%3Aaudio+mixer

[greypilgrim]

if you are going to use more than one mic i would get a mixer to level the audio. for 50 or so you can get one with level lights.

http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=audio+m...%3Aaudio+mixer

Thanks, aedipuss. Right now, there isn't the $50 to buy the mixer. Wish there was, but there isn't. That is on the list for the future, though.

Doug

[Cornucopia]

While the quality (on an absolute scale) of that brand gives me pause (and a shudder), it could very well be better than what you are getting from your phone, unless your phone is well placed. Your current situation YT samples sounds like it isn't.

Depending upon your phone or your recorder, you may or may NOT be able to:
1. Turn off AGC (zoom h1 can)
2. Adjust L+R levels independently
This should be researched & tested before purchasing.

A "Y" adapter can easily be bought or made that splits/merges 2 mono signals with a stereo signal. Probably for ~$10 (though I haven't priced something like that in years). That amazon one should work fine.

Voice levels will often vary greatly, but you would adjust the level based on an overall average. So the average for 2 would just be arrived at independently (if you have that capability in the H1, phone, inline vol control, etc), or you would adjust the level for one of the speakers and then move the lav on the 2nd speaker (closer or farther from their mouth) so their average level is similar. Done.

What is your budget on this? If quality is a priority, in descending order of importance, 1st variable is placement, 2nd is mic type & quality (pickup pattern, freq response, distortion, noise/sensitivity). Your Giant Squid might be a 2 1/2 on an absolute scale, whereas an Audio Technica like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006UGE54/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=dslrhd-20&link...SIN=B0006UGE54 might be a 4 1/2 - 5. Of course, YMMV and you should (if possible) ALWAYS try out and listen (with very good quality headphones, which you should also have ALREADY?) before buying, because sound coloration is partly subjective.

Understand that with the zoom h1 you will be shooting "double system" audio, so you will need to learn and follow the steps necessary to maintain A/V sync through to the edit process.

Scott

[greypilgrim]

While the quality (on an absolute scale) of that brand gives me pause (and a shudder), it could very well be better than what you are getting from your phone, unless your phone is well placed. Your current situation YT samples sounds like it isn't.

Depending upon your phone or your recorder, you may or may NOT be able to:
1. Turn off AGC (zoom h1 can)
2. Adjust L+R levels independently
This should be researched & tested before purchasing.

A "Y" adapter can easily be bought or made that splits/merges 2 mono signals with a stereo signal. Probably for ~$10 (though I haven't priced something like that in years). That amazon one should work fine.

Voice levels will often vary greatly, but you would adjust the level based on an overall average. So the average for 2 would just be arrived at independently (if you have that capability in the H1, phone, inline vol control, etc), or you would adjust the level for one of the speakers and then move the lav on the 2nd speaker (closer or farther from their mouth) so their average level is similar. Done.

What is your budget on this? If quality is a priority, in descending order of importance, 1st variable is placement, 2nd is mic type & quality (pickup pattern, freq response, distortion, noise/sensitivity). Your Giant Squid might be a 2 1/2 on an absolute scale, whereas an Audio Technica like this: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0006UGE54/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&tag=dslrhd-20&link...SIN=B0006UGE54 might be a 4 1/2 - 5. Of course, YMMV and you should (if possible) ALWAYS try out and listen (with very good quality headphones, which you should also have ALREADY?) before buying, because sound coloration is partly subjective.

Understand that with the zoom h1 you will be shooting "double system" audio, so you will need to learn and follow the steps necessary to maintain A/V sync through to the edit process.

Scott

Scott, thank you for the reply. Let me answer your questions and ask one or two more.

Yes, I have a pair of Sennheiser headphones (RS120 -- I presume they are acceptable, though I am sure there are better).

As for budget, US$225 is my optimal, though I could possibly swing US$250. The H1 and accessory pack runs $125, so that leaves me about $100 for the lavs. Those Giant Squid mics come in at a bit under the $100, but allow for shipping/tax. The Audio Technica wireless lav that you linked to are nice, but out of my price range. If you have recommendations for lav mics other than the Giant Squid that come in at about $40 each, I'm open.

Do you have any experience with the Sony ECM-CS10? It is a bit less expensive, and is a stereo mic (which may or may not be beneficial, as each mic is intended to capture one person speaking.

Also, several people have recommend I consider running each mic into a mixer, which would take care of the issue of adjusting the individual mic levels. For this purpose, would a passive mixer (like this one: http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/155438-REG/Rolls_MX41B_MX41B_Passive_Mixer.html) work? If so, I can put that into the plan for the future.

[smrpix]

If you're pinching pennies this tight, forgo the h1 accessory pack. That frees up $25. Use a Y jack instead of a mixer and deal with level adjustment it in post. Maybe you can find a Y jack that keeps left and right separate. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=252280&gclid=CPGYhYXi4L8CFQgxaQ...=REG&A=details That frees another $46. Now you're about halfway to getting the multichannel zoom recorder you really should be looking at in the first place.

[greypilgrim]

If you're pinching pennies this tight, forgo the h1 accessory pack. That frees up $25. Use a Y jack instead of a mixer and deal with level adjustment it in post. Maybe you can find a Y jack that keeps left and right separate. http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=&sku=252280&gclid=CPGYhYXi4L8CFQgxaQ...=REG&A=details That frees another $46. Now you're about halfway to getting the multichannel zoom recorder you really should be looking at in the first place.

Thanks for the reply.

I wish I didn't have to pinch pennies this tightly, but . . . .

I believe that using the Y jack (which you link to and mentioned earlier), the two mono feeds will be kept separate on the recording.

As for the Zoom recorder, are you suggesting the H2n?

Doug

[smrpix]

Yes, (missed your earlier link) as long as your channels are separate you can make the small modifications in post. I'm actually thinking about the H4N, H2N isn't really much of a step up. H4N will accommodate several generations of other audio gear upgrades as your project prospers.

[greypilgrim]

Yes, (missed your earlier link) as long as your channels are separate you can make the small modifications in post. I'm actually thinking about the H4N, H2N isn't really much of a step up. H4N will accommodate several generations of other audio gear upgrades as your project prospers.

The H4n would be lovely . . . but it is $100 more than the H1 (when compared to my original budget, which included the accessories pack). Perhaps I can find one used for less. Considering that the $46 savings by foregoing the mixer is a future savings -- the mixer is not in the budget right now, I am still short $100. Perhaps it is time to look again at the numbers.

[Cornucopia]

A "stereo" mic doesn't do you any good: you either CANNOT separate the capsules (much) - in which case for your purposes it is a waste of a channel, or you CAN separate the capsules, but for your price range the cabling would be too fragile. Much better to get 2 mono mics.

I'm all for moving up to the next level (H1->H2n->H4n->H6, etc), but you can do a LOT these days with more simple recorders. In fact, depending on if you could get an app that DOESN'T use AGC and DOES record LPCM, you could use an something like an iRig mike pre or iRig Mixer, etc and use GOOD mikes with you existing HTC as the sound recorder. As I mentioned: after placement, the MOST IMPORTANT determiner of sound quality is the type & quality of your mic(s). Put the bulk of your purchase towards that (assuming you have worked out & bought the appropriate support structure for its workflow).

Example (assumes you have been able to turn off AGC, etc): If you were only doing ONE voice, for your $250 you could get an iRig Mike Pre ($40) and a Countryman Assoc. Isomax2 Cardioid Lav for $210 http://www.thebroadcastshop.com/sales/detail.asp?partno=CM-M2-AW&aid=froogle&gclid=CP_...FSpp7AodNgQAuA. That is very likely a DAMN GOOD wired lav mic! (Countryman makes some really good stuff)

Again, I would strongly recommend AGAINST buying before you try (& listen/evaluate for quality acceptability).

Scott

[greypilgrim]

A "stereo" mic doesn't do you any good: you either CANNOT separate the capsules (much) - in which case for your purposes it is a waste of a channel, or you CAN separate the capsules, but for your price range the cabling would be too fragile. Much better to get 2 mono mics.

I'm all for moving up to the next level (H1->H2n->H4n->H6, etc), but you can do a LOT these days with more simple recorders. In fact, depending on if you could get an app that DOESN'T use AGC and DOES record LPCM, you could use an something like an iRig mike pre or iRig Mixer, etc and use GOOD mikes with you existing HTC as the sound recorder. As I mentioned: after placement, the MOST IMPORTANT determiner of sound quality is the type & quality of your mic(s). Put the bulk of your purchase towards that (assuming you have worked out & bought the appropriate support structure for its workflow).

Example (assumes you have been able to turn off AGC, etc): If you were only doing ONE voice, for your $250 you could get an iRig Mike Pre ($40) and a Countryman Assoc. Isomax2 Cardioid Lav for $210 http://www.thebroadcastshop.com/sales/detail.asp?partno=CM-M2-AW&aid=froogle&gclid=CP_...FSpp7AodNgQAuA. That is very likely a DAMN GOOD wired lav mic! (Countryman makes some really good stuff)

Again, I would strongly recommend AGAINST buying before you try (& listen/evaluate for quality acceptability).

Scott

Scott,

This discussion has helped hammer into my head the priority for spending money -- microphones come first, and should serve the ability to get as close to sound source as possible.

Considering everything, I am tentatively going to abandon the notion of buying a portable digital recorder for now and use the smartphones that we have. I had been avoiding that, as we often use our current phones (HTC One X+) as our cameras. But I remembered that we still have our previous smartphones, the Samsung Captivate; I've been playing around with those, and the sound recording seems to be about the same as the HTC One X+. And we're likely to get new phones in a couple of months, as that's when our plan allows free upgrading (and we have long purchased phones a generation or two old, to get them cheap or free. I know, a pattern, eh?) At that point, we'll have four "old" smartphones which can be used as digital recorders.

That allows me to spend all of my budget on microphones and necessary accessories.

As best I can tell, there are two choices emerging for recording into smartphones (and tablets). Rode makes the SmartLav+, which is designed to plug directly into smartphones (and now not limited to iPhones). They run about $80 each, which means that I can get 2 for under budget, and perhaps 3 if I can squeeze a bit over current budget. I could also go the route of the iRig preamp and use just about any microphone, though if I choose one that doesn't have an XLR connection, I'll have to buy an adapter.

Adding a single iRig pre will cost $30. There are a number of lav mics that could fit into the price range. MXL has an "interview kit," with two lavs, one cardiod, one omnidirectional in two versions, with and without preamp. I have found only one review, which gave the mics good marks for sound quality (4.5 -- I presume out of 5) but knocked the score for build down to 3.5 because the cables are thin and not shielded. HMN Sound has the microLav for $80, also. (They have one with XLR cable and requiring phantom power, which the iRig Pre has, but the cost is $120. An adapter from XLR to 3.5mm costs $10.) Since I don't know of any place local where I can listen to any of these, do you have any experience with them?

Considering all of this, is there a reason to choose the iRig Pre and lavs over the SmartLav+?

Doug

I have also heard your recommendation to listen before I buy. I will do that with all mics I possibly can.

[Cornucopia]

I think that is a good idea. However,

Make sure that you pin down and have accommodation for all the links in the recording chain. This is another reason for trying before buying - you get to do a dry run.
Consider the Mic->Pre->A/D->Recorder chain WRT:
Power supply(s)
Cabling pinouts at each junction
Length vs. security/stability/quality
Necessary accessories
Protection from elements/environment
Gain structure & sensitivity (to maximize dynamic range)

I'm sorry, I don't have experience with those devices. My background is from a traditional pro Audio Engineering standpoint, so I would not gravitate to those kinds of workflows, whether in my personal freelance work or when working for a studio/production company. On a scale of 1-10, I would probably rate most of those as being in the 3-6 range, mainly because they've already made a few quality compromises in the miniature form factor & portable capability choices. But that is still a LOT better than a 1 or a 2 that you would get by using your phone's internal mic positioned distantly, or a Radioshack dynamic handheld mic plugged into a dictation recorder, etc. Rode is one of the (much?) better brands in that 3-6 category. I would NOT get the MXL (got burned by them before).

Unless I'm mistaken, all those miking options (with the possible exception of the iRig Mixer) are MONO.

I don't know where you're located... the biggest metro areas have places to go to try this stuff out. Maybe you can schedule a day trip to one of them for testing. The better places understand the need for that sort of thing.
Also do more internet research re: reviews.

Good luck,

Scott