Panasonic DMR ES15

[SixFiftyThree]

while that ES10 and 15 is not bad alot of people in the german vhs capture scene moved to Panasonic DVD Recorders with HDMI Out and a HDMI Capture Card (for example blackmagic intensity pro) - you get perfect captures, some jitter correction and alot of inputs on the DVD/HD Recorder. I am using it myself and getting great results compared to other "solutions".

Yes that is what I'm looking to try also (but not necessarily with BMI), the problem is that I don't know which HDMI-equipped Panasonic models have the same TBC capability as the older ones. I know DMR-ES25 does but there is no PAL version of it. And I am reluctant to just go buying up random PAL models. If there is more info, whether personal experience or from other forums (those German ones?), please share. I'm willing to look into it and perform tests myself.

The one pitfall of this method, though, is in the event that a standalone full frame TBC is needed, to defeat anti-copy for instance. The analog outputs of the DVD recorder would have to be used instead then. Otherwise the HDMI workflow is really good, with the signal stabilised and converted in one step and passed perfectly to the capture card. Just as it should be. This is the way to go for modern capturing methods.

There just needs to be a confirmed selection of hardware, with evidence of correction and the quality of it next to the tried and true models. Which, due to their exclusivity, seem to be raising in price and lowering in availability. All the more reason to move forward.

[Brad]

While awaiting his response, you might try searching around the Gleitz forum.

The one pitfall of this method, though, is in the event that a standalone full frame TBC is needed, to defeat anti-copy for instance. The analog outputs of the DVD recorder would have to be used instead then.

The Panasonic models can't be used for Macrovision content at all; at least in the case of the DMR-ES15 and ES25. As soon as it recognizes a protected signal, black levels are raised and the image is blown to hell. This happens internally before an analog image is even output.

This is another DMR-ES25 HDMI capture (HDCP stripped).


On YouTube you can see a transfer of the same tape without this issue.

[Skiller]

The one pitfall of this method, though, is in the event that a standalone full frame TBC is needed, to defeat anti-copy for instance. The analog outputs of the DVD recorder would have to be used instead then.

It doesn't work that way, at least not with the European Panasonic DMR-EH models with HDMI out we tested at the German doom9 forum. The HDMI port on those will always be HDCP protected – no matter the input signal. You need an HDMI splitter that "forgets" to re-insert HDCP to capture it.

The Panasonic models can't be used for Macrovision content at all; at least in the case of the DMR-ES15 and ES25. As soon as it recognizes a protected signal, black levels are raised and the image is blown to hell.

Works perfectly with the DMR-EH Panasonics. They don't even care. I captured a Macrovision VHS tape with my DMR-EH 575 via HDMI and a Blackmagic Intensity Pro, no problems at all.

Edit: That was a PAL tape of course though. Maybe we could try capturing the Macrovision'ed output of a DVD-player playing some NTSC DVD to see if it works just as well (I bet it does).



We found out there are only 2 different analog-digital-converters in (European) Panasonic HDD/DVD recorders: the older ones, such as the ES10 (and it's HDD brethren EH52 and EH60) have excellent jitter stabilizing capabilities (actually the best) but lack HDMI, so you would need another recorder or capture device after it. Pity, because another digital-analog analog-digital conversion slightly hurts the quality.
Then there are the newer recorders, such as the ES15/ES20/EH56 and all of the HDMI-equipped DMR-EH models (EH65, EH575, EH585 and so on) which have not as good of a jitter stabilization as the ES10 but still very good and all you typically need for 1st generation tapes. The big advantage with HDMI output is there will be only one conversion of the signal for capturing.

And we found in case you need the jitter stabilizing of the ES10 (for really damaged tapes) you can simply use both the ES10 for stabilizing and an EH connected via S-Video to the ES10 and then capture via HDMI as usual.

[Brad]

I captured a Macrovision VHS tape with my DMR-EH 575 via HDMI and a Blackmagic Intensity Pro, no problems at all.

What method did you use to confirm that the tape is Macrovision-protected?

[Skiller]

Sorry for the late reply.

What method did you use to confirm that the tape is Macrovision-protected?

I connect the VCR straight to a Sony PVM monitor (professional CRT monitor) and use the PVM's H/V-Delay function to be able to see the blanking areas of the raw signal of the tape.

It looks like this:



See those checkerboards in the vertical blanking lines? They are slowly fading in and out. That's the actual Macrovision signal. If there's no Macrovision on the tape this area is clean.


The capture's black level is fine, see this screenshot of the same part of the tape:



Whites aren't blown out either.


Another method of finding out whether there is Macrovision or not is simply trying to record it to HDD or DVD with the Pana itself. If there is MV it will stop and display an error message after a few seconds.

[Brad]

Perfect, thank you!

Maybe we could try capturing the Macrovision'ed output of a DVD-player playing some NTSC DVD to see if it works just as well

Trouble here is that I haven't been able to reproduce the effect using DVDs! The DVD that I used to show Macrovision blowout on USB capture sticks doesn't trigger the DMR-ES15, even though tapes do (haven't tried it with ES25, as far as I recall).

[Skiller]

I actually did notice the Macrovision checkerboards coming from a DVD player look quite different compared to what I get with VHS. So yeah, I agree, there might be a significant difference.


Well, I do have 3 NTSC VHS retail tapes, I could try capturing those through the DMR-EH 575. But my PAL VCR would output them in PAL60 by converting the NTSC color carrier to PAL. I haven't yet tested if the Pana supports PAL60 input but my guess is no, which would result in a black and white capture. It's worth a try anyways and a black and white capture may be sufficient to determine if the luma levels are OK.