Advice sought re: 1. "Dead" VHS tape. 2. "Blackouts" throughout transfer.

[lordsmurf]

DVD recorders used as passthru processors for VHS entail compromises, like everything else. The Panasonic DMR-ES10 in particular is highly controversial: being the most effective, it is also the most widely debated. Some swear it is utterly transparent, while others (most notably LordSmurf) are equally adamant that it repairs severe errors at the expense of turning the repaired signal to blocky discolored mud.

It's not transparent, so only use when needed. But it's certainly not mud. I like my unit, and use it when needed, but it's not a TBC replacement. Supposedly, some units are fine, meaning it's a per=unit flaw. But I'm still dubious. (Some people are not that well versed with analyzing VHS for noise -- both seeing none where it exists, and confusing noise for "detail") The ES10 through ES25 should be fine. I forget the slight difference now, as it's been almost 10 years.

I'm just saying the 8710 is flaky and needs to be supervised once in a while.

This thread will help: Is my new AVT-8710 DOA? Screen Shots...

All DVD recorders include some form of "input TBC," but the exact nature of these circuits is elusive. They aren't "TBCs" in the traditional sense, because they don't necessarily solve the same problems in the same way, and each recorder model (even within the same brand lineup) performs differently when faced with the same tape errors.

See also the many conversations between davideck and myself.

I agree the Panasonic ESxx recorders in passthrough mode aren't 100 percent transparent. But the issue is the nature of the changes, whether they matter to VHS, and to what extent they are fixable. If you were starting with perfect studio quality analog video these changes might be unacceptable -- but then you would have no reason to be using a DVD recorder in passthrough mode

Yep! Restoration is about making it better, not making it perfect. The first goal is possible, and the second one is futile. Knowing when to quit (or not quit) is where skill and experience come in. And hardware/equipment, depending on the workflow needed.

[Brad]

Setup -> Video -> Black Level Control:
-Input Level: Darker
-Output Level (Composite/SVideo): Lighter
-Output Level (Component): Normal

I use Lighter input/Darker output.

Display -> Video:
-Picture: Normal
-DNR: Off
-Line-In NR: Off

NOTE: Insert a blank DvD in the tray to have some of these features visible.

The bolded functions only affect playback of discs, so they make you insert one (not just blanks: DVD-A, VCD, etc.). Don't scare people away from buying units with busted drives!

The "Line-In NR" option is only accessible once you're viewing one of the line inputs. That and the fact it's buried under "Display" are what make it confusing to access.

[PuzZLeR]

Setup -> Video -> Black Level Control:
-Input Level: Darker
-Output Level (Composite/SVideo): Lighter
-Output Level (Component): Normal

I use Lighter input/Darker output.

Is there a specific reason for this, or is it just taste? I see very little difference.

(Using i/o of light/light or dark/dark shows a difference, but I like to think of a balance.)

Display -> Video:
-Picture: Normal
-DNR: Off
-Line-In NR: Off

NOTE: Insert a blank DvD in the tray to have some of these features visible.

The bolded functions only affect playback of discs, so they make you insert one (not just blanks: DVD-A, VCD, etc.). Don't scare people away from buying units with busted drives!

The "Line-In NR" option is only accessible once you're viewing one of the line inputs. That and the fact it's buried under "Display" are what make it confusing to access.

Yes, playback of discs is the last thing I thought of when buying this unit, or with most anybody else reading this thread - thanks for the confirmation when I did suspect as such.

As Jagabo said, disabling NR would not be in a place expected, so I checked harder for it.

Are there any other options important, when only considering this unit strictly as a pass-though? As well, should I consider Display -> FL Display at all?

Thanks all.

[jagabo]

Is there a specific reason for this, or is it just taste?

It's not a matter of taste. Those are "NTSC setup" controls. Analog NTSC video has different black levels in North America vs. Japan, 7.5 IRE vs. 0 IRE respectively. They should be set correctly for your region (or the region your equipment/tapes are from).

If you have a tape with bad levels you might use the wrong setting to adjust them a bit. But that's rather crude.

[PuzZLeR]

Is there a specific reason for this, or is it just taste?

It's not a matter of taste. Those are "NTSC setup" controls. Analog NTSC video has different black levels in North America vs. Japan, 7.5 IRE vs. 0 IRE respectively. They should be set correctly for your region (or the region your equipment/tapes are from).

I see. It may make sense here in N.A. in case it starts at 0 IRE in NTSC-land, of which reports seem to believe, so an adjustment would be necessary. I also see the advice I saw about starting with darker input wasn't from N.A., I guess it would be fine for Europe.

I guess if one does use a proc amp, and does monitor regularly during captures (like I do), this too can ensure the 7.5-100 mark regardless, but I will consider this setting. Thanks for clarifying.

If you have a tape with bad levels you might use the wrong setting to adjust them a bit. But that's rather crude.

Almost every thing I, and many of us here, have to do with digitizing VHS has been crude. I'm used to it by now.

[Brad]

Are there any other options important, when only considering this unit strictly as a pass-though? As well, should I consider Display -> FL Display at all?

I don't know of any. "FL Display" just controls the brightness of the front panel.

[PuzZLeR]

Thanks for all the settings. I look forward to further tests with this unit. If anybody would like me to test something in comparison to, say, the AVT-8710, feel free to ask.

[PuzZLeR]

Well I gave the ES15 a testing, and here are my observations so far.

-No blockiness or posterization. Image is quite clean. No 4:2:0 or MPEG artifacts either.
-Some line correction, but not that much - maybe this is over-rated, and I don't think much better than the small adjustments the AVT-8710 does too. And I see this with every VCR I've used through the ES15. I don't think there is a solution, or hope here, especially if it's severe.
-Tearing/flagging is gone, or severely reduced. This is an improvement over the AVT-8710, and given a certain tape, makes my JVC a better VCR now.
-None of that color banding from bad tapes. But it doesn't do much for the color banding the JVC's TBC will produce on a given tape.
-Maybe it's my system, but I've seen a few frames dropped (rather reported as "inserted" according to VirtualDub) with the ES15. I don't see much improvement over the AVT-8710 in this respect, but nevertheless both are guilty of only dropping a few on a given day. (No big problem - just rewind and redo that segment if you're keeping track. Edit later.)
-Rewinds and forwards are better viewed in preview with the ES15. Nice advantage.
-No need to power cycle the ES15, and I think it can perform for many hours at a time. This is a huge advantage, and less work for testing tapes with different VCRs and a great benefit for the overall workflow. As a result, I will now use the AVT-8710 for when it's necessary (a given bad tape it may handle better, MV, false positives, etc.)

Oh, BTW, the DvD player works fine, and didn't test any recording, and I don't care anyway.

I'm just saying the 8710 is flaky and needs to be supervised once in a while. It works very well otherwise as one of your options. I'm pretty sure many of the claims of its unreliability - talking to the Forum here not just you - have much to do with what I discussed in my last post, which are all correctable with some modifications in the workflow.

Unless someone claimed to have bought a recent one from the last couple of years (when he/she had one from a previous time) and is certain that the quality control has diminished - that's different.

Yep, I bought one in the last couple of years. The QC is a joke and calling the device flaky is a big understatement. I'm not saying it doesn't work at all, but it's so bad that it may as well not. Power cycling can help but not with everything.

Specifically, I'm not speaking of interference patterns or other artifacts - which it can and does have - but actual TBC performance. It certainly does not help with dropped frames, because in fact it drops them itself.

Sorry to hear that, but I do believe you bought from that bad batch, particularly from what's mentioned in that thread Lordsmurf linked to in his post. Mine is not this bad. However, if Orsetto is correct, I feel bad that getting a new AVT-8710 could be a headache today.

But, in testing both, the ES15 is capable of dropping a few frames too. But, maybe it's my system. So not sure here.

Frozen frames and ghosting, among other errors, are all recurring problems with this device.

Yes, I'm aware of this problem. The AVT-8710 sometimes can't read a certain frame correctly - or for some unholy reason doesn't like it - so holds on to the last "good one" till it reads the next "good one", and "morphs" the two together. It's what it believes it should be doing as a TBC, and it's very annoying.

Maybe I haven't taken it very seriously because I use 4 different VCRs for capturing. Given a tape, it has rarely happened for all 4, so it has been a sign for me to use that particular VCR for that tape.

Otherwise it's one bad - very bad - tape. There has been an instance, or three, where I had to go without any TBC, but these were tapes recorded from a bad TV signal to begin with. And I have found a tape that the ES15 will give a bad signal that the AVT-8710 will handle better. One so far.

But, the ES15 so far has NOT been guilty of this morphing regardless, and this is a plus for it. I will agree that this morphing is horrible, and didn't realize till now that I have been making many subconscious efforts to work around it. I guess this is another reason to use the ES15 instead.

There is also is no way to bypass the proc amp as there's meant to be, which leaves me with automatic colour and levels adjustments that are way off.

I don't use the AVT-8710's proc amp. Yes, brightness and contrast is off anyway at default. Hue by maybe 2 points, and saturation can misbehave. But there are no color bursts from my experience, and since I use an external proc amp in the chain (AFTER the TBC) which I adjust to levels between 7.5-100 (acceptable N.A. IRE levels) what the AVT-8710 does is moot anyway. (Also, you can make adjustments in the histogram, and much can be corrected after in software regardless, assuming nothing is clipping.)

Therefore, I always recommended the Datavideo instead, which I do own and am satisfied with. Yes, apparently some units soften the image, but really, it's a small price to pay for rock solid performance. The price itself was/is costly - but a workhorse TBC like that is also hard to come by. Unfortunately even harder now that it's discontinued.

It's a shame because it really is indeed the most solid TBC of the gang here, no doubt. However, the softening is real. I just can't get past that, and this is personal taste.

[lordsmurf]

The ES15 lines are not all corrected, you say? Never seen that.

I really do think the ES10 was unique, and the ES15 and latter were not as good. I know latter models had the same sync filter in some way, but I don't know that it was the same. Sometimes I think the sync is lesser on latter models because of ES10 posterization artifacts.

Reviews have always been all over the place on this model series hardware.

At least we all know the recording aspects was crappy (pathetic LSI use by Panasonic). The passthrough was the reason to get it, but feedback has been all over the place for almost 10 years now.

I'm just glad I have mine, and it does what it does.

[PuzZLeR]

The ES15 lines are not all corrected, you say? Never seen that.

When you say, "Never seen that.", do you mean you've never seen it DO line correction (completely), or that you've never seen it NOT DO line correction (completely)? I'm really interested in what you meant - please elaborate.

From my experimentation, I'm talking about the little jitters. The ES15 does correct them somewhat, but not in an overly impressive way. Outputting a perfectly straight picture from VHS to digital, at least without some compromise, is not going to happen, and certainly not for all tapes.

At least we all know the recording aspects was crappy (pathetic LSI use by Panasonic). The passthrough was the reason to get it...

I could care less how the ES15 records, and probably will never get around to testing it. As well, of all the VCRs that I bought in recent years to capture, I don't think I ever hit the record button once.

I'm just glad I have mine, and it does what it does.

Since the AVT-8710 has reported Q/C issues, and the DataVideo is very expensive for some (and has been discontinued) the ES10/ES15 can still be, at least arguably, a good TBC choice for that right person. It doesn't do it all, but I do like it, and it has good performance for what it does. I hate expanding my chain any more than I have to, but it does fit nicely in there.

[lordsmurf]

Never seen NOT do.

It's very, very accurate correction. for bad tearing and in-image wiggling. Oddly, it's doesn't do as well unless the image passes some kind of threshold. If it's not bad enough, corrections are lesser. I tend to think it's somewhat intelligent with the way it corrects.

But again, the tradeoff comes with the IRE and the crushed color palettes. So only use when it makes the image overall better.

The old green/black AVT-8710 is fine. The newer colors are the problem units.

The Panasonic doesn't help with signal issues, only visual ones. It will often still trip of digital inputs devices. (Macrovision, but all non-artificial errors)

[PuzZLeR]

Never seen NOT do.

It's very, very accurate correction. for bad tearing and in-image wiggling. Oddly, it's doesn't do as well unless the image passes some kind of threshold. If it's not bad enough, corrections are lesser. I tend to think it's somewhat intelligent with the way it corrects.

Yes, this is what I noticed too, which kind of made me think it was over-rated somewhat.

Yes, the ES15 (and maybe any adjacent 10-25 model) is excellent at reducing, in fact eliminating, much of that tearing, and those awful wobblies and color banding. But the small little jitters tend to still be there. I tend to classify these as different problems, so the ES15 isn't very effective with the latter.

But again, the tradeoff comes with the IRE and the crushed color palettes. So only use when it makes the image overall better.

I haven't noticed much damage here since I use a proc amp in the chain, which would correct a majority of such flaws regardless (placed AFTER any TBC ).

The old green/black AVT-8710 is fine. The newer colors are the problem units.

Ah, the green ones. Although they were also the ugly ones, they were the most effective. I don't think I've seen any on eBay ever, or for a long time now. Maybe people are hanging on to them tighter. (I do see recent black models - wonder why.)

The Panasonic doesn't help with signal issues, only visual ones. It will often still trip of digital inputs devices. (Macrovision, but all non-artificial errors)

The ES15 has balked on one tape when the AVT-8710 hasn't in my tests on a false positive, and likely more, such as from bad recorded TV signals, etc. Having a full-frame TBC around is still important.

What's also interesting to note, and I can give samples, is one tape had slight posterization issues when played with the JVC through the ES15. It was only with that particular tape played though only that VCR - maybe that combo was harsh. However, although the AVT-8710 didn't have posterization issues, in "handling" this bad signal, it played the tape with much ghosting, morphing, frozen frames, etc - it makes me wonder how bad this signal really must have been and how a TBC reads it.

Using another VCR solved the problem with both TBCs though. Then again, using multiple VCRs will solve alot of problems with signals and TBCs in general.

[lordsmurf]

The DataVideo TBC-100 is better than the AVT-8710 (aka Cypress CTB-100) anyway.
We have samples here, but I'm not done yet. It's going to be a while.

[SixFiftyThree]

A lot to comment on here, and it's late. But I'll nibble at it.

Sorry to hear that, but I do believe you bought from that bad batch

The AVT-8710 sometimes can't read a certain frame correctly - or for some unholy reason doesn't like it - so holds on to the last "good one" till it reads the next "good one", and "morphs" the two together.

Yes, brightness and contrast is off anyway at default. Hue by maybe 2 points, and saturation can misbehave.

This is accurate regarding some of what I experienced too. Unless they all act this way, it appears you've bought from a bad batch as well. Maybe just a better functioning unit.

But again, the tradeoff comes with the IRE and the crushed color palettes. So only use when it makes the image overall better.

What crushed color palette? I think that's some rare defect present in units like yours, but not inherently a tradeoff given that it's not typical performance. Not like the AVTs which typically have a boatload of tradeoffs. But I do agree to only using if of benefit.

The old green/black AVT-8710 is fine. The newer colors are the problem units.

I read replies refuting this after I repeated that advice about the green/black units. Apparently, they're not all fine either. I would hope otherwise, but they're so rare that it doesn't matter.

The Panasonic doesn't help with signal issues, only visual ones. It will often still trip of digital inputs devices. (Macrovision, but all non-artificial errors)

Does frame sync not qualify as signal improvement? It just doesn't clear the VBI as a full TBC would hence won't clear the MV or false positives (right?).

But the small little jitters tend to still be there. I tend to classify these as different problems, so the ES15 isn't very effective with the latter.

Could you provide an example of these problems? Perhaps the line correction of your ES15 compared to your JVC VCR? Just to be clear on what you're describing.

The ES15 has balked on one tape when the AVT-8710 hasn't in my tests on a false positive, and likely more, such as from bad recorded TV signals, etc. Having a full-frame TBC around is still important.

Of course. ES15 can provide a steady signal but can't fix one corrupted by MV and the like.

one tape had slight posterization issues when played with the JVC through the ES15. It was only with that particular tape played though only that VCR - maybe that combo was harsh.

Was the JVC's TBC/DNR also on? Or other filters?

using multiple VCRs will solve alot of problems with signals and TBCs in general.

Yes, it can make all the difference.

PS:
Reading over this, it reads like I have some favoritism for the DMR-ESxx models. I don't. They just seem to be the most sensible and reliable option now for TBC ability. I know there's similar DVRs ie. Toshiba but they don't seem easily available/affordable. Dealing with MV sucks and I would say full TBC is the only sure solution, but I need to give those Grex a try. Paired with a frame sync device, they just might do the trick without all the cost and hassle of true TBCs.

[PuzZLeR]

Did more testing and report back.

one tape had slight posterization issues when played with the JVC through the ES15. It was only with that particular tape played though only that VCR - maybe that combo was harsh.

Was the JVC's TBC/DNR also on? Or other filters?

I see now it was because the D/R3 was enabled on the JVC, creating that effect from the source itself.

In comparison, the AVT-8710 seems to filter out and yield a less noisy signal, but a few less details, which led me to believe that the ES15 was creating a posterization effect, when it was merely passing through with picture integrity.

But since Neat Video can clean up the noise regardless, and since the ES15 will prevent alot of that tearing/flagging, and won't be guilty of morphing, the ES15 seems the better choice in such cases.

Sorry to hear that, but I do believe you bought from that bad batch

The AVT-8710 sometimes can't read a certain frame correctly - or for some unholy reason doesn't like it - so holds on to the last "good one" till it reads the next "good one", and "morphs" the two together.

This is accurate regarding some of what I experienced too. Unless they all act this way, it appears you've bought from a bad batch as well. Maybe just a better functioning unit.

I think it's typical behavior for the AVT-8710. I think the question is whether you have enough of a functioning unit that you are able to work around such quirks, as I have. It's a pain, but, honestly, the AVT-8710 has gotten alot of work done for me, and did do very well in a great majority of cases in preventing dropped frames on captures.

Sadly, another person may not be so lucky, and with the reports of the Q/C in the latest batch, this could be worse.

Yes, brightness and contrast is off anyway at default. Hue by maybe 2 points, and saturation can misbehave.

But again, the tradeoff comes with the IRE and the crushed color palettes. So only use when it makes the image overall better.

What crushed color palette? I think that's some rare defect present in units like yours, but not inherently a tradeoff given that it's not typical performance. Not like the AVTs which typically have a boatload of tradeoffs. But I do agree to only using if of benefit.

Looking at this again - what exactly are we talking about here?

Are we talking about colors/brightness/etc being a bit off? This is true. But, as long as nothing is clipping, or off the scale, and assuming the offset is rather consistent, which is the case at worst, this is all correctable with a hardware proc amp in the chain, or proc amp software during the capture, or with filters in software after. A more experienced user should consider this moot regardless of which TBC, the AVT or ES, is guiltier of this.

If it's a mere chroma dancing, which may show more with the ES15 since it reveals more "dirty" details - flaws inherent in the source, then Neat Video easily cleans this up with the temporal filter after.

However, are we talking about other effects like color banding? This happens frequently with the JVC's internal TBC on some tapes, and no external TBC has been able to correct this from my experience.

As for waves of chroma patterns, such as, for example, when watching a soccer game and there are red/blue/etc color patterns at the top of the screen over the green field, very similar to flagging or tearing? On those such tapes, the ES15 handles this better, however if it's a false positive creating this, then you'd have to deal with the AVT-8710 and capture with the artifacts. There is no clear answer to this.

The Panasonic doesn't help with signal issues, only visual ones. It will often still trip of digital inputs devices. (Macrovision, but all non-artificial errors)

Does frame sync not qualify as signal improvement? It just doesn't clear the VBI as a full TBC would hence won't clear the MV or false positives (right?).

But the small little jitters tend to still be there. I tend to classify these as different problems, so the ES15 isn't very effective with the latter.

Could you provide an example of these problems? Perhaps the line correction of your ES15 compared to your JVC VCR? Just to be clear on what you're describing.

When I'm saying the ES15 isn't very effective with the small jitters, I also meant nothing else was effective either, whether it be a VCR's internal TBC, or the AVT-8710.

I've provided a sample. The ES15 does provide correction for the obvious artifacts, such as the tearing, flagging, chroma patterns, etc, but does very little for the small little line jitters - take a look at the goal posts, or the lines on the field. They quiver.

Whatever TBC settings I have with the JVC, the lines still quiver. (Then again, much quivers with this JVC's output.)

You can run it through a pass with Neat Video's motion algorithms to make it look better, but that's about the best I see hope for.

Is there anything that can help with this?

(PS-This was from the CFL Grey Cup game in 2000 - no copyright infringement was intended.)

[jagabo]

No line TBC can ever be perfect. All they can use to straighten scan lines out is the length of time between each horizontal sync pulse. If the scan line is too short it is lengthened, if the scan line is too long it's shortened. But, for example, if the drum was spinning too quickly for the first half of the scan line, and too slowly for the second half, it might have exactly the correct overall line length -- but most of the picture will be shifted slightly to the left. Then at the start of the next scan line the drum starts out spinning too slowly. Maybe it speeds up and is too fast by the end of the scan line. Again, maybe it's right length overall. But most of the picture content is shifted to the right. So the line TBC decides neither line needs fixing and the horizontal jitter remains.

On top of that you may have problems with the rise time of the horizontal sync pulses. If that varies so will the detected start time of the scan lines.

[lordsmurf]

but I need to give those Grex a try. Paired with a frame sync device, they just might do the trick without all the cost and hassle of true TBCs.

The Grex do not defeat errors -- not artificial/anti-copy/Macrovision, nor natural errors.
The brightness values are way, way off.

It's junk; a waste of money.