TMPGEnc mpeg2 output

[glenpinn]

so does it really matter in the overall scheme of things.

As long as that single pass is VBR quality-based and not CBR, no.

ok thanks, i always used variable years ago when i was shooting in DV tape format and converting to Mpeg2, but up until recently i had not done any dvd conversions for years, and sometimes you tend to forget these things, however i was informed by someone that if the Mpeg2 file is output at a low bitrate, say to fit it onto a single layer disc, then a 2 pass encode may be better, but again, it all depends on who is offering that information, whether it is reliable or not, hence the need to ask, and you guys seem to know more than others i have spoken to.

cheers.

[manono]

If you do a 1-pass VBR encoding and then a 2-pass for the same size, the qualities should be about the same, all other settings being the same. Where the 2-pass method might be better is when you're trying to fill a disc, like a DVD+/-R. I don't know that the average bitrate has anything to do with which you might choose. Maybe someone else has something to say about that, but I typically use 5-pass (in CCE) to fill the DVD+Rs to the top, with bitrates typically between 4000 and 5500. When just doing short videos, like maybe for a compilation DVD, I'll always use quality-based single-pass encodes.

[glenpinn]

Where the 2-pass method might be better is when you're trying to fill a disc, like a DVD+/-R.........

but I typically use 5-pass (in CCE) to fill the DVD+Rs to the top, with bitrates typically between 4000 and 5500. When just doing short videos, like maybe for a compilation DVD, I'll always use quality-based single-pass encodes.

hi, i am a bit puzzled by these 2 comments about doing multiple passes to fill out a disc to the top, how does doing multiple passes fill out the disc.

in my case recently, i produced a 2 hour wedding video, consisting of 30min of pre-wedding video shot while the 2 bridal parties were getting ready, 30min in the church, 20min at the photo shoot session, and 40min at the reception and going to their hotel.

they had one elderly relative in usa who needed a copy on dvd, so thats why i asked about outputting my 1080/50p m2ts video to 720x480 ntsc format instead of doing it in pal format, and the dvd worked out great using VRD to produce the Mpeg2 file, and then to Author it without a menu screen so when they loaded the disc up it played the video.

when i output the Mpeg2 file using VRD i just selected the "Target File Size" option in the VRD Mpeg2 profile that i created, rather than use the VRD built in "quality preset" or the "target bitrate" options, which is what you would normally do, but you wont know the exact output file size and/or bitrate until the Mpeg2 file has been completed, the "Target File Size" option let me make the target size 4.3gb so it would fit the disc after authoring, and i just did a single pass encode of the Mpeg2 file.

without going back to my office and looking thru my clients files, i think the output bitrate on that 2 hour video was around 5Mbps, which is very acceptable when using a 1080/50p m2ts video as the source.

cheers

[_Al_]

Target File Size - is 2pass encoding mode , where average bitrate is calculated depending on runtime DVD so you fill the DVD. That is what I think that your prg does. 5pass will not fill DVD any better, it is just how CCE can work, it can run more that 2 passes.

With 1 pass VBR you can fill DVD just about right +,- choosing right bitrate (same bitrate as you would calculate 2pass average bitrate) , but encoder distributes wrong bitrates for scenes. Imagine you have DVD with action in first half and just talking head with same backgroung in the other half of your video. Encoder doing just 1 pass VBR has no idea and gives just half of DVD ~2GB for those action scenes but if you encode 2pass VBR, during first pass encoder gets an idea about distribution of bitrate and it might give (example) about 3.0 GB volume for just half of DVD runtime, because ~1 GB might be enough for that talking head part. So you fill DVD the same way like 1pass VBR, but you'd say 2pass is better.

You cannot use quality preset, CQ, 1pass to fill a DVD, well not easy, if I have runtime less than 1 hour and 10 minutes and HcEncoder I'd use 1pass CQ with max 8500 and you know there is enough room for it (audio 192kbps or so). HcEncoder does not have CBR anyway.

If you have encoder with CBR and runtime is less then 1hour and 10 minutes or so, you can use 1pass CBR 8500 kbps (+audio 192 or 224) and you know there is room on DVD just for that.

Runtime is higher that 1 hour and 10 minutes you should use multipass that guarantees better , more effective distribution of bitrate, and you just fill DVD. You have to calculate average bitrate. Or as you said you can use "target file size" modes or whatever, that does it for you.

[glenpinn]

Target File Size - is 2pass encoding mode , where average bitrate is calculated depending on runtime DVD so you fill the DVD. That is what I think that your prg does.

VRD can do "target file size" either 1 or 2 pass, depends what i select, and in the case i referred to in my previous post, i just did a single pass, maybe i should have done 2 passes, im not sure.

with that wedding video, as with most weddings, there are lots of different locations with different lighting conditions, action scenes, quiet moments, you name it, there is always lots happening, but in the reception video it was indoors at night and they kept the lighting down very low (to create the mood) so i relied on my LED camera lights quite a lot, but overall it seems to have turned out ok on the dvd, and it is only going to be watched by a few people in america, and the other video was retained in its original 1080/50p h264 format after editing, using the VRD smart rendering, output to mp4 and copies were put onto a 500gb usb3 powered portable hdd for playing directly via usb on HD tv.

[manono]

VRD can do "target file size" either 1 or 2 pass, depends what i select, and in the case i referred to in my previous post, i just did a single pass, maybe i should have done 2 passes, im not sure.

If there's a 1-pass filesize option then most likely it's using ABR (if it's not CBR). Average BitRate is sort of in between CBR and true VBR. The complex scenes won't get as many bits as they might using 2-pass or quality-based encoding, and the static scenes will get too many. Or it's as _Al_ explained. It's not optimum but might do in a pinch. I'm sure VideoRedo explains what it means somewhere.

[glenpinn]

[QUOTE=manono;2312728]

I'm sure VideoRedo explains what it means somewhere.

yes i will go back to their forum and ask one of the Devs exactly how they work it out, i know the main Dev guy who i deal with regarding technical stuff is very busy at the moment so i wont annoy him via email.

will post back with any info.

[glenpinn]

hey guys, can someone please download these 2 files and check them out, with special attention to the bit at 0.57sec where the silver car enters the screen from the right moving across to left right in front of my camera.

i wont fill you in until you see both videos and pick it up, but i did not pick it up myself until a guy in the VRD forum spotted it, and the same progressive output from VRD has the same issue (source was 1080/50p m2ts) and i am kind of a bit disappointed because i really wanted to believe that converting from a 1080/50p video to dvd Mpeg2 should or would be better than interlacing it.

TMPGEnc 720x576 mpeg2 progressive, 2 pass
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/p98r6cgayyp766g/1d_TMPGE_%28720x576p_Mpeg2_8000vbr_2_pa...ps%29_prog.mpg

TMPGEnc 720x576 mpeg2 interlaced, 2 pass
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/hm96bu61est69r4/1e_TMPGE_%28720x576i_Mpeg2_8000vbr_2_pa...s%29_inter.mpg

these are 2 mpeg2 conversions of another 1080/50p m2ts clip where i was stationary but panning my camera around quite fast while on my monopod, and if you can download this as well and offer some feedback it would be nice.

TMPGEnc 720x576 mpeg2 progressive, 2 pass
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/g7113qqzm1jpj7e/2d_TMPGE_(720x576p_Mpeg2_8000vbr_2_pass...Mbps)_prog.mpg

TMPGEnc 720x576 mpeg2 interlaced, 2 pass
http://www.mediafire.com/watch/4jujs0zhplfu452/2e_TMPGE_(720x576i_Mpeg2_8000vbr_2_pass...bps)_inter.mpg

[manono]

All those encodes are crap. They look to me like 1-pass ABR encodes and the 'Q' is all over the place. DCT Precision should always be 10 (except for the lowest bitrates for the worst quality).

i wont fill you in until you see both videos and pick it up...

Is this supposed to be a game? The darkening of the picture as the car goes by? If so you can thank your camera for that. Did you have an automatic gain or some such turned on? Did you adjust the colorimetry (aka color matrix) when downsizing to standard resolution?

[_Al_]

I downloaded just first two videos. That silver car entering screen in 57 second, and I would say, you can see there what one would expect to see, regarding that particular moment.

-25p has introduced strobing in movement ,50p to 25p conversion, not enough temporal resolution, obvious gaps in time are created just dropping every other frame, that passing car has only 25 stored positions in one second

-25i is smooth, 50p to 50i keeps temporal resolution,that car has have 50 stored positions in one second

I thought this was already cleared out, no need to be afraid having interlace DVD. On the contrary, in your case, 25p will butcher your footage more. Everybody will notice strobing for example, but not many, if at all, will notice some worsen footage overall quality (blur, or artifacts introduced by player's deinterlacing etc., because there is nothing to compare it with watching that DVD)

[_Al_]

simple avisynth script to get interlace PAL DVD from 50p HD source:

Directshowsource("mona_bus_50p_HD_video.m2ts")
Spline16Resize(720,576)
Blur(0,0.5) # something between 0.5 - 1.5, whatever works
ColorMatrix(mode="Rec.709->Rec.601", clamp=0)
AssumeTFF().SeparateFields().SelectEvery(4, 0, 3).Weave()

another thing, bitrate viewer gave for your mpg strange stair pattern for bitrate, as was mentioned above, maybe it is same thing, like encoder tried his way to keep bitrate in certain level

[glenpinn]

All those encodes are crap. They look to me like 1-pass ABR encodes and the 'Q' is all over the place. DCT Precision should always be 10 (except for the lowest bitrates for the worst quality).

i wont fill you in until you see both videos and pick it up...

Is this supposed to be a game? The darkening of the picture as the car goes by? If so you can thank your camera for that. Did you have an automatic gain or some such turned on? Did you adjust the colorimetry (aka color matrix) when downsizing to standard resolution?

i am not playing any games here, geezus christ, it had nothing to do with any darkening of the picture, it was in fact the Strobing or shimmer as i call it as the silver car drove past, it was in this bit that it became more evident in the progressive output.

also, i have not touched my original 1080/50p camera footage other than edit and smart render to 1080/50p m2ts with VRD, and i took that into TMPGE and i also did nothing to alter the picture, other than to do the output to dvd Mpeg2 in both progressive and interlaced, and i only did this one last exercise because it was bought to my attention by a guy in the VRD forum, and i needed final convincing that i should be interlacing my 1080/50p m2ts files when i output to Mpeg2, and _Al_ has already done that, so interlaced it is.

i am not a pixel peeper, and i clearly dont look as hard, or even always know what to look for with these mpeg2 outputs taken from these 1080/50p source files, and to me, given they are dropped to standard def Mpeg2 format, i am relatively happy with them, given i never do this for my own use, and it is something i simply do as a favor for a few people who ask me to give them a copy of their HD files output onto a dvd for some rellies (usually older ones) who still live in the dark ages.

for them, it is absolutely fine, this is not hollywood, these are not hollywood produced dvd movies, and i dont understand your reaction to all this.

i will just output to Mpeg2 interlaced exactly how TMPGEnc does it, i am not touching anything else when i dont do this very often, its not worth the headache, and i wont bother you guys about it any more, i am now convinced, but i thank everyone again for the help.

i have yet to hear back from VRD as to why their software wont let me interlace my Mpeg2 video files.

[manono]

Double post, sorry

[manono]

... it was in this bit that it became more evident in the progressive output.

I see no difference between the interlaced and the progressive encodes in that regard. You say it's not in your source?

i dont understand your reaction to all this.

Did you or did you not ask for feedback?

another thing, bitrate viewer gave for your mpg strange stair pattern for bitrate, as was mentioned above, maybe it is same thing, like encoder tried his way to keep bitrate in certain level

Yep, that's the look of an ABR encode.

[glenpinn]

-25p has introduced strobing in movement ,50p to 25p conversion, not enough temporal resolution, obvious gaps in time are created just dropping every other frame, that passing car has only 25 stored positions in one second

-25i is smooth, 50p to 50i keeps temporal resolution,that car has have 50 stored positions in one second

yes and now i understand the strobing (shimmer) it happens when i convert 1080/50p to 1080/25p as well, but in the Mpeg2 files i did not notice it so much until i saw that car move past me at close range, and i also understand how interlaced (50i) from my 50p source will be better than chopping every other frame out when going the progressive road, i totally forgot that it is 50i therefore will be smoother.

... it was in this bit that it became more evident in the progressive output.

I see no difference between the interlaced and the progressive encodes in that regard. You say it's not in your source?

i dont understand your reaction to all this.

Did you or did you not ask for feedback?

another thing, bitrate viewer gave for your mpg strange stair pattern for bitrate, as was mentioned above, maybe it is same thing, like encoder tried his way to keep bitrate in certain level

Yep, that's the look of an ABR encode.

1. how come you see no difference between the interlaced and progressive when _Al_ spotted it, you just poked around at all the other faults you could find and reacted to those.

2. i did ask for feedback, not in the tone of voice that you gave me, it came across as somewhat harsh in my opinion, and i never made any alterations to my 1080/50p source files while editing and smart rendering them in VRD, and certainly not in TMPGE, those Mpeg2 outputs, if they looked different, was all the doing of TMPGE.

3. if it looks like ABR then i have no idea how to tell it, but i assure you it was variable with 8000 set as the maximum in TMPGE.

_Al_ gave me a script to use for my 1080/50p to dvd Mpeg2 outputs, but i have never used scripts for encoding, so i either just accept TMPGE interlaced as i have been, or i learn how to use the script.

cheers

[manono]

1. how come you see no difference between the interlaced and progressive when _Al_ spotted it...

Because that darkening of the sky as the car goes by isn't strobing. He's talking about something else entirely. I ask again, are you claiming it's not in the source?

2. i did ask for feedback, not in the tone of voice that you gave me

You've already been warned about ABR encoding (sometimes called 1-pass VBR). Sure, you can slough it off by saying you don't care, or that the people for whom you're doing these don't notice, but if you're trying to learn you may as well learn right. If I sound exasperated it's because it seems as if it's in one ear and out the other. I took the time to download the samples, study them and then to comment. It's obvious you've ignored the advice given so far. And you have the nerve to say you don't like the attitude?

3. if it looks like ABR then i have no idea how to tell it, but i assure you it was variable with 8000 set as the maximum in TMPGE.

And I assure you that's not how a true VBR encode looks. It looks to me like 8000 was set as the average. If 8000 was the max, what was the min? And was it 1-pass or 2-pass? True VBR encoding for a chosen bitrate/filesize isn't done in a single pass.

[glenpinn]

i am not going to quote you, but it was that "strobing" that _Al_ referred to, and not the sky bit, and i cant see that darkening in the source file with my own eyes, but if it is there, then i may be made worse by tmpge, i have no idea, but here is the link to that source file for you to download if you care to, and judge for yourself.

http://www.mediafire.com/download/0jizggfnfrolzar/1a_Mona_Roma_source_(1080-50p_m2ts_@...24.0Mbps).m2ts

This is my output setting, if this is wrong then please offer me the right settings, in mediainfo the output says "variable" bitrate, and i selected variable in the output settings, and it did 2 passes, i sit there and watch it running in the preview screen myself m8, so what more can i say, i am not bothered about that darkening, it was the strobing as that car went past me that i didnt notice was there in the progressive output.

the only other output option is CBR which i just did using 8000 bitrate, but it only does 1 pass, and that dark patchy sky still happens, so maybe it is there ever so slightly in the source file, i dont know.



if at the end of the day it is not up to your standard then thats not my problem, i have been trying to do this the best i can using this tool, and if its not doing it very well, then i will just suffer with it, given, as i said, the dvd days are over as far as my video work goes, and in 2 years only had 2 requests (in the past month) for their video to be converted to dvd.

that sample that _Al_ posted up further up the page also has that shadowing in the sky as well.

[manono]

it was the strobing as that car went past me that i didnt notice was there in the progressive output.

The so-called 'strobing' isn't limited to that spot beginning at the 57 second mark. It's throughout the entire video. That's just the standard 25p jerkiness. And that's why it was recommended for you to interlace the video - to retain the smoothness of motion. Because that jerkiness (which seems to bother you) is seen throughout the entire video, it's not unique to the place you mentioned (and mentioned in the VideoRedo forum post), and I was looking for something unique to that particular part of the video - like the darkened sky as the car drove by. Look, every movie you've ever watched - in a movie theater, at home on television, or in your 25p version - has had that same jerkiness, although the effect is lessened somewhat with film because of motion blur. It's much more noticeable during certain kinds of movement than others, but it's always there. You could even add motion blur yourself if wanting to encode as 25p by using a setting in AviSynth's QTGMC. If smoothness of motion is an important consideration then interlacing your 50p version to 25i for DVD is the obvious solution.

I see now - you set both average and max bitrate to 8000. You don't notice anything wrong with those settings? You don't think that might defeat the purpose and advantage of VBR encoding?

[glenpinn]

m8, i already said before i only noticed the strobing at that part because the car was so close to me, so it was a lot more noticeable, and i always try to avoid shooting close to moving objects like that card did even when shooting 50p video because strobing of close objects is harsher on my eyes than seeing it in the distance on moving objects.

also, yes it is there right thru the progressive video, i never said otherwise, i just used that 0.57sec marker to highlight it, because it was more prominent, and we already discussed the issues with doing progressive over interlaced for Mpeg2 (as _Al_ pointed out to me) and i already said i will do my 1080/50p conversion to Mpeg2 interlaced to avoid that dreaded jerkiness.

this strobing/jerkiness is another reason why i always tell people if they are shooting in roaming mode like i do (or using hand held rigs) always shoot 1080/50p over 25p if your camera has the option, because the panning scenes are not as jerky, and any moving objects going past the camera will look smoother, but still, some people will still shoot in 25p mode and dont care, and i personally cannot tolerate that jerkiness, and why would anyone want to suffer with that crap in their video when it can be avoided.

yes i can shoot jerky free video on my cameras in 25p mode, if you restrict your panning to snail pace, and avoid walking around like i usually do, but why limit your movement of the camera just to avoid it when 50p is the obvious choice if it is available, its just plain rediculous to me, and i never use a tripod, everything i shoot is done using my own custom made hand held rigs and monopods.

as for my Mpeg2 outputs being average bitrate, i already showed you the screenshot of how i set tmpge up, it has 2 quality settings, VBR (average with 2 pass) and CBR (constant with 1 pass) and in both outputs i did using both those settings, the shadowing in the sky was there.

mediainfo tells me the video bitrate is variable, and i also asked you in my last post to show me what setting i need to use to get this Variable bitrate you keep going on about, but as yet, you still have not given me your settings, unless you just advice ditching it for something else.

i know those Mpeg2 videos are not perfect, i know everyone thinks tmpge is shit, i know VRD is shit for h264 encoding because they use mainconcept and i now know x264 is far better and cant see why they dont use it, but i will always use VRD for editing and adding my titles to my 1080/50p camera files and smart render to 1080/50p m2ts so i keep my camera video as it was shot, i will then use either tmpge mastering works, or RipBot/MeGUI or handbrake to re-encode/resize down to 720/50p m2ts or mp4, and because right now, VRD wont let me interlace progressive video in their Mpeg2 profile, i have to use tmpge, unless you give me an alternative output profile for tmpge, or offer me a totally different, but better solution that wont cost me any money, and is easy to use.

also, dont think for a moment that i am not greatful for all this help, i am, i just find that your reaction to everything is harsh, and rather than you keeping up this "Variable bitrate" cart like you have been doing, offer me a way i can get that, because all this time i use the VBR output setting and you claim my video is not "Variable bitrate"

cheers

[manono]

m8...

I'm not your mate.

mediainfo tells me the video bitrate is variable

Yes, that's just a marker in the video stream. But you effectively crippled true VBR encoding with your settings.

both outputs i did using both those settings, the shadowing in the sky was there.

It has nothing to do with your encoder settings since it's in your source.

... or offer me a totally different, but better solution that wont cost me any money, and is easy to use.

HCEnc fed by an AviSynth script such as one _Al_ offered earlier. Easy to use? I don't know - maybe not for you - but thousands use it and love it.

.. i can get that, because all this time i use the VBR output setting and you claim my video is not "Variable bitrate"

Nonsense, I've never claimed any such thing. ABR is an inferior form of true VBR encoding.

i also asked you in my last post to show me what setting i need to use to get this Variable bitrate you keep going on about...

So this doesn't give you a clue:

I see now - you set both average and max bitrate to 8000.

I don't know how those VideoRedo guys put up with you. They must have the patience of saints. I don't and will retire from this one. Good luck.

[glenpinn]

good for you, i dont want any more from you either, and as for the VRD forum, thats none of your business buddy, i have a great relationship with everyone over there, including the Developers, much more than i can say i have had from you.

you need to lighten up, and stop being so harsh on everyone.

cheers

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